Vatican II from a young person's perspective

[JackVk]

I’ve seen many people complain about the effects Second Vatican Council and about how it is somehow destroying the Church. To some exent, I agree with this. We shouldn’t have “hippie” priests and nuns that try to make the Church “cool”. But as a young person, I don’t know anything different. I don’t think we should go back to every Mass being in Latin. Bear with me for this statement, but I feel like the young people wouldn’t be as interested in the Church if every Mass was in Latin. Maybe it could be done on special occasions, but not all the time. In this day and age, the Church is lucky to have any young people interested at all, let alone the number it has. I know I may have contradicted myself, but can anybody prove me wrong?

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I’ve seen many people complain about the effects Second Vatican Council and about how it is somehow destroying the Church. To some exent, I agree with this. We shouldn’t have “hippie” priests and nuns that try to make the Church “cool”. But as a young person, I don’t know anything different. I don’t think we should go back to every Mass being in Latin. Bear with me for this statement, but I feel like the young people wouldn’t be as interested in the Church if every Mass was in Latin. Maybe it could be done on special occasions, but not all the time. In this day and age, the Church is lucky to have any young people interested at all, let alone the number it has. I know I may have contradicted myself, but can anybody prove me wrong?

It is the young people who are lucky to have the Church available to them. God first, your entertainment second. Your line of reasoning will eventually result in the marginalization of the Church; it will not die, God assures us of that, but it could be driven underground as in the past.

 

[Crumpy]

I lived through the Second Vatican Council as a young teenager and I was excited about it, at least from all the hype that surrounded it and the news that came out of it. That news was sometimes sensational in its presentation.

Aside from the descriptions of the council in catholic newspapers, which were sort of over my head at the time, I’ve never been exposed to a systematic explanation of the Council.

Now, there are books with the documents that came from the Council, but there is some controversy there about the language that was used in translating from original Latin documents.

I think that a lot about the weekly Mass seemed musty, dusty, and stodgy. In my parish, which had a Polish heritage, we had visiting Polish priests who barely spoke English. So, they could say the Mass in Latin, but they would read their sermons (homilies) in very broken English. It was hard to understand. So, if you think Latin makes the Mass difficult, it’s even worse when the English parts don’t seem like English.

I’m one of those who has seen the Mass change so much, from solemn organ music to guitar music, which seemed like performances.

I’m not sure what you want somebody to prove to you. We’re talking about salvation, and the young people who belong to the Church are “lucky” (to use your words) to have that much.

Since Vatican II, society and the world have become very consumer oriented, and faith in God is not a consumer commodity. Faith is supposed to be the most important thing in your life.

Not only have Catholics become lukewarm in their religious life, so have Protestants and Jews. They complain about the same things. And, the priest sex scandals have damaged the Church enormously – they have affected us all – and we haven’t even gotten an apology from the Church, that I can tell.

My advice: Lower your expectations. Focus on God, the Bible, and the Mass and the Sacraments – living a life in Christ. Sadly, the Church may disappoint you, but you are the Church, too. Religious life is an interior life. You have to train yourself and discipline yourself – discipline – make yourself a disciple. The Church is a “lightning rod” for attack and controversy.

Read and meditate on Psalm 1. Blessed is the man who does not walk with those who ignore God, does not walk in the path of sinners, or pays attention to those who don’t believe in God. Like the psalm says, the blessed man is a like a tree planted by a stream (Christ) which nourishes it and it yields its fruits in due time.

Your faith is the most precious thing you have even moreso than your life. Hang on to it and protect it and don’t let anybody push you around.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I’ve seen many people complain about the effects Second Vatican Council and about how it is somehow destroying the Church. To some exent, I agree with this. We shouldn’t have “hippie” priests and nuns that try to make the Church “cool”. But as a young person, I don’t know anything different. I don’t think we should go back to every Mass being in Latin. Bear with me for this statement, but I feel like the young people wouldn’t be as interested in the Church if every Mass was in Latin. Maybe it could be done on special occasions, but not all the time. In this day and age, the Church is lucky to have any young people interested at all, let alone the number it has. I know I may have contradicted myself, but can anybody prove me wrong?

I think the entire discussion inevitably comes back to that Passage in which Our Lord Says - you cannot Serve both GOD and Mammon.

Certainly many people serve the world ( mammon being the Syriac word for riches which can be defined in many different ways but for the purpose of this discussion I’ll refer to it as the world) with all its trapping, and relegate GOD to a secondary position in their lives. When this occurs - then the things important to your personal relationship with GOD take a backseat as well. Now many people try to dissect Vatican II but I am going to stay away from that argument purposely because it leads to argumentation and I’ll say - in its aftermath - many people have interpreted it and thus manifested it in attempting to serve both the world and GOD. It doesnt appear to be working out too well. And it may have a lot to do with the societal degradation brought on by the 60’s too.

So what appears to be the answer? It goes back to the Passage. Serve GOD first and foremost. Put GOD first in everything you do.

Its like a sermon I heard once - What if you had a friend that the only time he called you up was when he needed something. And you never heard from him otherwise? Would you consider him a True Friend ? Ot , say you called up a friend and his wife answered and in the backround you heard him say - “I really dont want to talk to that guy. Telll him I am busy” Would you be offended? Is our relationship with GOD like that? We only pray when we need something. When we are sick or out of work. When our lives are going good he isnt in our thoughts very often? Our prayer life reflects this? We all have the ability to develope our relationship with GOD. So its up to each of us to do so. GOD gives us everything we have. So lets us not neglect him , let us instead show GOD Our love by beginning and ending our day in Prayer to him. We dont have to be young or old to be good Catholics. We can all be good Catholics because we love GOD. Age is irrelevant.

Pax

 

[Barbkw]

I vaguely remember attending Mass when it was said in Latin (I’m 50). I think I probably had to peek my head over the pew in front of me by standing on the kneeler.

Then, one day - the priest turned around and started speakin’ English.

Soon after, the Communion rail disappeared to the dark areas of the basement of the Church.

But…that gave rise to the long felt banners with odd elongated pictures - and of course, the loud energetic “geetar” Masses. Yeehaa!

As teens in the 70s, we thought the songs were cool, which helped, because we were absolutely clueless as to what was happening at the Mass

 

[Barbkw]

P.S. I’d be very happy to see an occassional high Mass - Latin Mass celebrated at Christmas, Easter, etc.

Particularly if they would play the Latin music that sounds like angels singing.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I vaguely remember attending Mass when it was said in Latin (I’m 50). I think I probably peeking my head over the pew in front of me by standing on the kneeler.

Then, one day - the priest turned around and started speakin’ English.

Soon after, the Communion rail disappeared to the dark areas of the basement of the Church.

But…that gave rise to the long felt banners with odd elongated pictures - and of course, the loud energetic “geetar” Masses. Yeehaa!

As teens in the 70s, we thought the songs were cool, which helped, because we were absolutely clueless as to what was happening at the Mass

Sigh! :banghead:

 

[HCC]

It is already happening. It is the young generation that is rebuilding the Church stone by stone.

 

[Adeodatus]

So I’m a thirtysomething… does that make me young or old? I still feel young-ish.

The sentiment here is bizarre. It’s like a young person walking outside in post-bombing Hiroshima and saying “I sure like living in an uncluttered city. There’s never any traffic on the way to the market.”

Go to a Mass where the priest doesn’t show his back to God the whole time. Where it’s not a performance. Maybe it will change your mind or your heart.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I think that the way Vatican II was rolled out in the states left some things to be desired. Do I think that it was all bad? No. Do I (as a 26 y/o convert) thing that we should go back to the ad orientem (sp?) and latin? Absolutely. Do I also realize that there is nothing inherently wrong with the vernacular and the ad populem (sp?) liturgy? Absolutely.

I think that we (the youth of the Church) need to do what we can to inject a sense of the sacredness of the Mass when and where we can, most especially where the Mass has been treated as humdrum, dull, and ordinary.

The Latin Mass was responsible for the salvation and conversion of more souls than anything other than Christ Himself (and I say this with the understanding that the Mass is effectively a means of “living out” or worshiping Christ). I think that we should return to what we know works, but I do not think that we should mandate a return to Latin and all the Latin Mass entails. Remember, the change to Latin from the Greek was a change to the vernacular, and the language of the Mass does not in any way alter its effects.

But that is just one man’s opinion.

FSC

 

[Student09]

I am a young person (22) and a convert. I love the Latin Mass - though I only started going recently, it is more the kind of Mass that I had hoped for when I started attending Mass in the first place. I am also fortunate to be able to attend a reverent OF Mass, but it appears to be the exception rather than the rule: I have seen a lot of liturgical abuses and the congregations seem to more or less take them for granted and go along with them. I would love to see an across-the-board return to ad orientem, COTT, kneelers/altar rails and more traditional music, if not a full return to the Tridentine Latin Mass.

Of course I can only speak for myself. Most of my classmates are more interested in getting drunk or high or whatnot than in going to any kind of religious service. But the few of my classmates whom I know who are still wavering Christians (i.e. they have not yet formally apostasized), seem to be drawn to some form of the traditional - to high church Anglicanism, or to Eastern Orthodoxy.

The Church needs to be different from the world. Our world is basically going to hell. For those of us in our twenties, this is the only way we have ever known the world. That doesn’t make it a good thing.

 

[archangel04]

Being 25, its only been couple of months of attending the EF, but through those times I have picked up so much and I respond to Latin pretty good. Latin will always be the greater language to use in the Western Church, but I agree that the vernacular should be used in the OF mass. The vernacular should be used, but not entirely especially in the consecration, and I long for the return of ad-orientum! If the OF would just have these two things it would take it to higher level than never before! Many of the modernist who did their damaged have left the Church or are getting old and have little influence left, you will see that the younger generations will long for something much more reverent and a Truth that is not sugar-coated. Will the Church get smaller? Perhaps, but that’s because people are having less kids, and the baby-boomer generation is heading to retirement. The Church is not luck that it has a younger generation, but we are lucky to have the Church, to be able to learn the Truth of God.

 

[rosary_kat]

My advice: Lower your expectations. Focus on God, the Bible, and the Mass and the Sacraments – living a life in Christ. Sadly, the Church may disappoint you, but you are the Church, too. Religious life is an interior life. You have to train yourself and discipline yourself – discipline – make yourself a disciple. The Church is a “lightning rod” for attack and controversy.

Read and meditate on Psalm 1. Blessed is the man who does not walk with those who ignore God, does not walk in the path of sinners, or pays attention to those who don’t believe in God. Like the psalm says, the blessed man is a like a tree planted by a stream (Christ) which nourishes it and it yields its fruits in due time.

Your faith is the most precious thing you have even more so than your life. Hang on to it and protect it and don’t let anybody push you around.

Well said, but I would reverse that: RAISE your expectations. God has already come down to our level, let’s reach UP to him. Alleluia! :heaven:

 

[rosary_kat]

I’ve seen many people complain about the effects Second Vatican Council and about how it is somehow destroying the Church. To some exent, I agree with this. We shouldn’t have “hippie” priests and nuns that try to make the Church “cool”. But as a young person, I don’t know anything different. I don’t think we should go back to every Mass being in Latin. Bear with me for this statement, but I feel like the young people wouldn’t be as interested in the Church if every Mass was in Latin. Maybe it could be done on special occasions, but not all the time. In this day and age, the Church is lucky to have any young people interested at all, let alone the number it has. I know I may have contradicted myself, but can anybody prove me wrong?

I for one, am deliriously happy when I see young people (yes, even that squalling baby back there) at Mass. No, I don’t think the Church is lucky to have them, they are lucky there is still a Church to belong to! But what makes me happy is that there is hope for the future in all those innocent and semi-innocent faces. The world is not coming to a crashing doomsday end. Yes, as His Holiness has said, the Church will contract, but then it will gloriously expand the way it did in the times of Benedict. To God be the Glory. Keep going to Mass, kid it’s the coolest thing you can do!

 

[HCC]

So I’m a thirtysomething… does that make me young or old? I still feel young-ish.

The sentiment here is bizarre. It’s like a young person walking outside in post-bombing Hiroshima and saying “I sure like living in an uncluttered city. There’s never any traffic on the way to the market.”

Go to a Mass where the priest doesn’t show his back to God the whole time. Where it’s not a performance. Maybe it will change your mind or your heart.

Really? Because I’m 30-something and when I attend an OF Mass, it certainly feels like a performance to me. Lounge singer on the piano, sappy, syrupy 1970s music inspired by the Carpenters, priest talking about how he is jealous of ripped, muscular bodies at the beach (just this past Sunday), constantly aiming at a laugh, or an “Oh, Father, you’re too much…”, using dramatic intonations, interjecting his own words and personality into the liturgy to emphasize his own particular theology…

No. No performance going on there…

 

[rosary_kat]

Really? Because I’m 30-something and when I attend an OF Mass, it certainly feels like a performance to me. Lounge singer on the piano, sappy, syrupy 1970s music inspired by the Carpenters, priest talking about how he is jealous of ripped, muscular bodies at the beach (just this past Sunday), constantly aiming at a laugh, or an “Oh, Father, you’re too much…”, using dramatic intonations, interjecting his own words and personalities into the liturgy to emphasize his own particular theology…

No. No performance going on there…

Oh, I do hope there’s another parish in your vicinity! :sad_yes:

 

[Student09]

Really? Because I’m 30-something and when I attend an OF Mass, it certainly feels like a performance to me. Lounge singer on the piano, sappy, syrupy 1970s music inspired by the Carpenters, priest talking about how he is jealous of ripped, muscular bodies at the beach (just this past Sunday), constantly aiming at a laugh, or an “Oh, Father, you’re too much…”, using dramatic intonations, interjecting his own words and personality into the liturgy to emphasize his own particular theology…

No. No performance going on there…

I’m pretty sure the performance Adeodatus was referring to was an OF Mass. The priest “showing his back to God” would be facing the people - in ad orientem he is facing God.

And I, too, am sorry that your parish is like that. I would try to find a different one … I know that “parish shopping” is frowned on - but honestly - if I had to go to the parish that is nearest to me, I would be a nervous wreck. So thank God it is allowed to go to a different one.

 

[skinny_pumpkin]

I am still currently Orthodox but I am working on becoming Catholic. I converted to Orthodoxy a long long time ago. One of the reasons: Vatican II and the Catholic Liturgy vs the Eastern Divine Liturgy.
I am a liturgical snob, I admit it. But I noticed many young protestants drawn to the Divine Liturgy over the NO Mass. Vat II and the NO Mass were a major stumbling block for me way back then, and has been for many, imo.
When Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope Benedict, I told several people that one of the first things he would do was to make liturgical reforms within the Church. He granted permission for any priest to say the Latin Mass and endorsed Gregorian chant as the official music of the Church. (Those people looked at me like a freak after that, but that is also because I predicted that then Cardinal Ratzinger would be crowned Pope, but I digress )

I do not know how it is for cradle Catholics, but many protestants that convert are looking for a solemn liturgical experience and are tired of the Evangelical style, “feel good” type of worship.

 

[OraLabora]

Although I support the OF Mass, I would also support the following:

1. User of chanted propers instead of horrible hymns.
2. At least the ordinary, preface and canon in Latin.
3. Readings and homily in the local vernacular.

As one who used to travel extensively around the world on business, and as one who can easily master the essential bits of ecclesiastical Latin, maintaining a core part of the Mass in Latin actually fosters understanding and unity around the world. For example, when I traveled to Korea, which has a significant Catholic population, Latin would have been much easier for me to follow than Korean! If Latin was used in all Masses, those parts would eventually become familiar to those who regularly show up at Mass.

We could have vernacular-only Masses when there are a lot of young people or catechumens involved. Greater use of Latin should be encouraged.

 

[Barbkw]

I love this:

youtube.com/watch?v=pTLx7aL7dIQ

I think the first time I heard it was when Pope Benedict visited the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Wash DC.

They sang it in the Crypt Church & I was spellbound by the beauty of the voices.

nationalshrine.com/site/c.osJRKVPBJnH/b.5047307/k.6B27/2010_Triumph_of_the_Cross_CD.htm