Vatican II: LAY FEMALE SEXUALLY ACTIVE EUCHARISTIC MINISTERS?

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Dear Brother, I’m afraid that you seem to be splitting hairs now, which is both unnecessary and unhelpful.🤷

I clearly said that priest includes bishops. ‘Priest’ is often used when both priests and bishops are meant. Even the Church’s own documents use the term priest in this way. Redemptionis Sacramentum #154 uses the world priest; I do not think the Church meant to exclude bishops as Eucharistic Ministers. Likewise Can. 900 §1 only uses the word priest; again, I do not think the Church meant to exclude bishops as Eucharistic Ministers.🙂
Yes, I understand what you are saying and have no problem with it, just saying that I would have said it differently is all. 😃

I also admit that I misunderstood what point you were trying to make when you said “Eucharistic minister” as that is not a term used in Canon Law. Though theologically I understand fully what you mean with it.
 
A woman that brings life in to this world is a tabernacle - granted not the Tabernacle as the Virgin Mary was but a tabernacle that allows life to spring forth from her through God’s plan of sexual intercourse within a marriage. Now when this is all done according to God’s plan within a marriage could someone please tell me how this dirties her but not her husband because I am lost…
If someone tells you, please let me know too. This has never been the authoritative teaching of the Church. I have heard that there are some Oriental Churches that require that the married priest abstain from intercourse the night before the mass. I have no idea if this is true, since I do not know the canons of the Orient. However, I do know that none of the Catholic Churches has ever said that sex is dirty.

In fact, no one has ever said that sex is dirty even when the couple are not married or are gay or lesbian. Sex is one thing and chastity is another. Sex is a gift. What we do with the gift is quite another story. Our choices are right and wrong, not the gift itself.

There is certainly nothing wrong with intercourse between spouses. Even if there is a rule about abstinence in some other Churches, it probably has to do with asceticism, not with sex.

I always use this analogy, fasting is good for the soul. But it does not mean that food is a bad thing. Try to go through life without eating.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Yes, I understand what you are saying and have no problem with it, just saying that I would have said it differently is all. 😃

I also admit that I misunderstood what point you were trying to make when you said “Eucharistic minister” as that is not a term used in Canon Law. Though theologically I understand fully what you mean with it.
I agree that the term ‘Eucharistic Minister’ is not specifically used in the relevant canon. I think it is usually used to distinguish those sacred ministers who can confect (bring into being) the sacrament of the Eucharist (priests/presbyters and bishops) as opposed to the sacred minister who cannot (deacon). All three sacred ministers can of course give Holy Communion so all three grades of holy orders are the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion.
 
If someone tells you, please let me know too. This has never been the authoritative teaching of the Church. I have heard that there are some Oriental Churches that require that the married priest abstain from intercourse the night before the mass. I have no idea if this is true, since I do not know the canons of the Orient. However, I do know that none of the Catholic Churches has ever said that sex is dirty.
It is not in the current Code of Canons for the Oriental Churches. It may be in the particular canons for each individual Church but I know it is not present in the particular Canons for the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church.

I think the issue is that some people have a certain view and have found some writings of saints that support their view. The problem is that 1) saints are not infallible and 2) saints writings do not always express what the Church actually Teaches.
 
A complete digression, for which I fully apologise in advance, but is anyone else noticing that the CAF site is taking a long time to load pages. Everything else I’ve got open is loading normally but CAF pages are loading very slowly.
 
I have heard that there are some Oriental Churches that require that the married priest abstain from intercourse the night before the mass. I have no idea if this is true, since I do not know the canons of the Orient.
While I cannot quote the specifics offhand (perhaps Aramis has them handy), yes, there is a rule (or at least a tradition) of continence for married priests in the East. Ultimately, it is rather analogous to the Eucharistic fast: one abstains for a time in order to better prepare oneself for the Holy Oblation.
 
While I cannot quote the specifics offhand (perhaps Aramis has them handy), yes, there is a rule (or at least a tradition) of continence for married priests in the East. Ultimately, it is rather analogous to the Eucharistic fast: one abstains for a time in order to better prepare oneself for the Holy Oblation.
I in no way mean to make light of this - but I do see a point here- for instance in the Latin Rite we have an hour fast prior to the Mass if we are to receive the Eucharist. (Granted this is a min.) While sex between spouses is not sinful - I guess I could also see the logic in fasting from the act for that same period of time not out of cleanliness but out of a time to focus on the Sacrifice of the Mass to come - but as far as the Latin Rite goes it would be a Sacrifice completely optional for that couple.

My orignal question was only asked because the manner this thread was named in - it seems that we often seem focused on chastity of females. Chastity should be equally important for both genders.
 
While I cannot quote the specifics offhand (perhaps Aramis has them handy), yes, there is a rule (or at least a tradition) of continence for married priests in the East. Ultimately, it is rather analogous to the Eucharistic fast: one abstains for a time in order to better prepare oneself for the Holy Oblation.
OK . . . that would make it an ascetical practice, not a statement about sex. Just as fasting is not a statement about food.

I urge people to be very careful when speaking about sex. Sex is one thing, ascetcisim is another and sins against chastity another. The first two are good, the latter is not.

I want to go back to something that Br. David said, because it is important here and it falls right into my area of expertise: Ascetical and Mystical Theology. Many saints often wrote about sex using language that would give the mistaken impression that they viewed sex as dirty. You often find terms such as “the flesh” in many writings or the “lower senses”, etc.

It is important to remember several things.
  • If you asked these men and women whether they considered the marital act as sinful or dirty, they would deny it. They are not refering to this. They are referring to impurity.
  • These men and women were products of their culture. In many cultures, people believed that sex was a necessary evil . . . if not evil, at least a yuky thing to talk about or do. The culture did not reflect the authoritative teaching of the Church. I always refer to Victorian England as an example. They were not Catholic, but they had some very rigid rules about sex, which they didn’t follow anyway.
  • Finally, some of the saints struggled with chastity. I know that St. Francis struggled.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
A complete digression, for which I fully apologise in advance, but is anyone else noticing that the CAF site is taking a long time to load pages. Everything else I’ve got open is loading normally but CAF pages are loading very slowly.
Everything seems fine from my end. Check your server. If you’re using wireless, try a wire and see if it makes a difference.

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
The problem with this thread, besides the fact that we’re repeating ourselves, is that there is an a priori assumption that the Church is wrong and that the individual is right. Just because one writer or several writers say that the Church is wrong, doesn’t make it so. These are their opinions. However, when it comes time to follow rules, the opinion of this or that writer is not what we follow.

I realize that some people feel a fondness for Archbishop Lefebvre. But we have to put things into proper perspective. Archbishop Lefebvre is not an authoritative source. He had an opinion on this subject. We should show his opinion the utmost respect, because he was a bishop. Respect and assent are not the same thing. Assent is only given to the person who has legitimate authority to govern.

The Church and the popes have spoken on this matter rather extensively. It is to the popes and those ecclesial bodies that the Church recognizes as authoritative to whom we must assent. There is no rule in the Church that says that we must agree with what is decreed. The rule is that we must assent to what is decreed. The Catholic Church is one of those governments that governs without the consent or the appreciation of the governed. She does not need our permission to govern us and tell us what to believe and what to do. That has been given to her by Christ. She does not need our appreciation to do it. We may not appreciate what she says, but we must assent to what she says.

If we went down the rout of consenting and appreciating as a prerequisite for valid authority, we would have no Church. On certain issues, there are as many opinions as there are Catholics. Just look at birth control, which was never declared an infallible teaching. However, the Church demands full assent.

I believe that many of us Catholics are beginning to show signs of entitlement when it comes to the Church. “We are entitled to an explanation,” or “We are entitled to be heard on every issue and every opinion that we have.” On this subject, we are showing the same false sense of entitlement. “We are entitled to have a satisfactory explanation for clerical celibacy in the Roman Church.” The truth is that we are not entitled, because we do not belong to a democratic Church. We are only entitled to those things that the Church says we may have. If she does not say that we may have it, then we’re not entitled to it and a satisfactory explanation is very subjective. What satisfies one person may not satisfy another. The Church has no obligation to offer explanations that satisfy everyone. The reason is simple. She has no obligation to do the impossible. You can’t offer an explanation that will satisfy two billion Catholics today and for the next 1,000 years. That’s a lot of people.

I’m a superior now, but I was in formation work for a long time. I always reminded those who came to inquire about our life that they were not entitled to join the community. They often came with the attitude that they had a vocation, because they believed that Christ was calling them. We had to set the record straight. One believes that Christ is calling and one does the best he can to respond. However, one will only know if Christ is truly calling, if the Church says so.

Ultimately, Christ’s speaks authoritatively through the Church, not through our feelings or our desires. Our feelings and our desires can be right on the money or can be way off the mark too. We will only know when the Church tells us. If the Church says that you may enter, you have your confirmation from Christ. If the Church says that you may not enter, you also have your confirmation from Christ. You are not entitled to enter a diocesan seminary or a religious community, because you believe. You are only entitled to enter, if Christ wants you to enter. That will only be known when the Church speaks. That’s how he communicates authoritatively. There is no other means of authoritative communication between Christ and man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
But how do you explain all the orthodox seminarians who were kicked out of some of these liberal/heretical/homosexual lead seminaries in “the spirit of Vatican II” as documented in GOODBYE GOOD MEN and other studies?

Did Christ really speak through the church when these men were kicked out because they had real traditional faith and didn’t want to put up with the gay subculture?

The church is still made up of men who can be falliable unless we are talking about faith and morals.
 
why does vatican II allow lay female sexually active eucharistic ministers? Doesnt this defeat the historical rationale for mandating celibacy in the latin rite? By allowing this, don’t we basically have mini-female priests?
I suppose many have said this already:

(1) I’m guessing the OP means Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist (the Vatican makes no distinction between male and female in this category) help the priest distribute Holy Communion.

They do not consecrate the bread and the wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ… so, in no way can they be seen as mini priests and mini female priests. They distribute, they do not not consecrate.

(2) Why single out females? Especially when males and females are permitted to be Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist by the Vatican, which of course the present Holy Father also approves of.

(3) These females (and males) are chosen from the laity of the congregation. They are not required to make vows of chastity. If married (and they often are) whose business is it if they are sexually active or not?
 
A complete digression, for which I fully apologise in advance, but is anyone else noticing that the CAF site is taking a long time to load pages. Everything else I’ve got open is loading normally but CAF pages are loading very slowly.
Sincere apologies for this digression too. Yes I have noticed this over the past two days. Today especially some pages when replying to a thread refuse to load at all - you just get a blank page - and you have to start all over again.

CAF pages are slow enough to load as it is. Sorry folks.
 
When we talked about sexual activity there are two points to consider, one is when sexual act is done under the context of morality and the other is an immoral sexual act. Now, if females are prohibited to render the Eucharistic Host due to a morally sexual act?! then it follows to be worst for one to eat the Eucharistic Host under thesame condition (morally bounded sexual act for those married people) which is clearly absurd. In the second condition that a woman who is immoral rendering the sacred host must be considered for it is improper for one to perform such office, however the principle of of ex opere operato should be uphold, that the morality of the person assigned to administer the rit, in no way affects the validity and holiness of the sacrament.:):)🙂
 
(3) These females (and males) are chosen from the laity of the congregation. They are not required to make vows of chastity. If married (and they often are) whose business is it if they are sexually active or not?
I was under the impression that all Catholics made vows or promises (not sure of which word would be more correct would gladly invite Br JR to correct me here) of chastity when we take our Sacrament of Confirmation.

After all we when confirm we:

a) are sealed by the Gift of the Holy Spirit - meaning that we should be able to discern the difference between right and wrong IF properly formed

b) 1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
  • it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;117
  • it unites us more firmly to Christ;
  • it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
  • it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;118
  • it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:119

    Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God’s presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.120
1304 Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the “character,” which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.121

1305 This “character” perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and "the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi Ex officio)."122

Now whether or not these lay persons take these vows or promises seriously is another story - and honestly is a matter between them and God.
 
They are not required to make vows of chastity. If married (and they often are) whose business is it if they are sexually active or not?
And by the way - married people are still called to chastity -

Adultery is an offense against chastity.

ABC is an offense against chastity.

Pornography is an offense against chastity.

Masturbation is an offense against chastity.

Sexual acts for the sake of lust rather than the unitive or procreative nature of the act are offenses against chastity.

Non-licit acts within a marriage are offenses against chastity.

So yes married people are still called to chastity.
 
Pope John Paul II allowed for this I believe, that is he allowed the use of EMHC.

I am curious though, how do you know who is and who is not sexually active?
Dear Reverend Brother,

We had a monastic priest who used to just ask the married priests whether or not they had slept with their wives the night before . . .

I kid you not.

And that’s one way of knowing . . .

Alex
 
We do not have female Eucharistic ministers. Only priests and bishops are Eucharistic ministers. And some of those priests are married so I assume that they are sexually active.
There are many rules that apply to the sexual abtinence of married clergy with regard to the liturgical and sacramental life of the Eastern Rites.
Code:
  However, we do have married male & female Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.  We don't consider those men 'mini priests' so why would we consider the females in that way?
Many Traditional Catholics do consider all service at the altar to be appropriate only for those eligible or discerning the call to Holy Orders. In some parishes, only Acolytes or Deacons serve as Extraordinary eucharistic ministers.

The real question is, how does the OP KNOW that the lay female minister is sexually active? 😉
 
I was under the impression that all Catholics made vows or promises …
At confirmation we renew our baptismal promises; we do not make vows.
… of chastity when we take our Sacrament of Confirmation.
We do not promise chastity. It would not make sense for us to promise chastity at confirmation.

Chastity is refraining from sexual intercourse. That would be a strange thing to do, especially at confirmation, and that would contradict with the sacrament of marriage and the procreation of children. Of course sex should be limited to a man and a woman who are married to each other.

There seems to be a very big hang up about sex in the Church. If we all refrained from sex then the Catholic Church wouldn’t survive very long!😦
 
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