Vatican II Reforms - Impact on Converts

[anamchara]

In a High Mass, the priest and the choir sing all the parts of the Mass, and there is lots of incense.

Now this I can get behind! I’m actually trying to get my own priest to bring back incense, he hasn’t done them in a long time.

 

[dts]

dts,
I would have no problem experiencing the Latin form of the mass as long as it is performed in accord with the legitimate authority of the Church.

However, I would not knowingly participate in or condone anything that undermines this authority or rejects the teachings or decrees of the Magisterium.

rocketrob

I agree if you reject the Magisterium or undermine its authority, you cease to be Catholic. However, the Magisterium does not speak with equal authority on all subjects and it is possible for the church leadership to undermine its own authority at times. I think we have seen this with the changes in the Mass and also with the ongoing scandals.

The Tridentine Mass has become associated with schism and that should not be the case as Pope Benedict has repeatedly said.

The issue of schism and disobedience is a separate issue.

 

[dts]

Another convert here. I have only experienced the NO in English so have nothing to compare it to except for this.

Within the past year and a half we have had three Franciscans take over the parish. One of these priests is well into his sixties, possibly in his seventies. The first time I went to him for confession he gave me absolution in Latin. I’m not sure why but there was something really moving about that, something almost more “real”. Maybe that’s not the best word, but I’m having trouble describing what I felt.

In any case, it got me thinking that I would like to go to a Latin mass, but I also wondered whether it would be better to find a Tridentine mass or a NO in Latin. Is it even possible to find the NO in Latin? I know that the NO was written in Latin and then translated and I know that “ad orientum” of the celebrant is quite licit under the NO. There is no prohibition on it. I wonder whether the effect would be similar to the Tridentine to have an NO in Latin ad orientum, or would there still be something missing? Without any experience of this I’m only asking speculative questions.

The NO could be improved in this fashion as you suggest. But, the depth of its prayers would still not match the Tridentine.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The NO could be improved in this fashion as you suggest. But, the depth of its prayers would still not match the Tridentine.

This is a subjective opinion. That’s fine, but we should be careful so as not to state it as a “given.” I don’t think the NO lacks anything in comparison to the TLM. I’ve attended the TLM and it leaves me cold. The NO, reverently offered, is “home” to me. Of course, I was received into the Church in the rarified air of a monastic setting. The same Mass offered there would differ anyway from a mass offered in a regular parish.

 

[dts]

This is a subjective opinion. That’s fine, but we should be careful so as not to state it as a “given.” I don’t think the NO lacks anything in comparison to the TLM. I’ve attended the TLM and it leaves me cold. The NO, reverently offered, is “home” to me. Of course, I was received into the Church in the rarified air of a monastic setting. The same Mass offered there would differ anyway from a mass offered in a regular parish.

I am willing to be corrected, but in this case I don’t think it is a subjective opinion. In fact, I think it is pretty objective. Just line the prayers up side by side in an English translation. The NO has removed many of the prayers that are said in the Tridentine.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I am willing to be corrected, but in this case I don’t think it is a subjective opinion. In fact, I think it is pretty objective. Just line the prayers up side by side in an English translation. The NO has removed many of the prayers that are said in the Tridentine.

I have. I don’t think MORE is always necessarily more, if you understand my meaning. There is a noble simplicity to the NO Mass (properly offered). And the sacrificial nature of the Mass is still clearly understood in the NO. And many of the prayers that accrued to the TLM (some of which were originally supposed to be sad in the sacristy, for example) tended, in the opinion of many, to obscure the Mass, as it were.

I freely admit, my opinion is also subjective. I cannot imagine, however, wanting to regularly hear Mass in a language in which I do not think or reason, nor can I imagine ever prefering not to hear the beautiful words of the canon and the consecration. I would go to a TLM, possibly regularly, if it were translated into the vernacular and you could hear the canon.

 

[maurin]

I freely admit, my opinion is also subjective. I cannot imagine, however, wanting to regularly hear Mass in a language in which I do not think or reason, nor can I imagine ever prefering not to hear the beautiful words of the canon and the consecration. I would go to a TLM, possibly regularly, if it were translated into the vernacular and you could hear the canon.

I used to feel the same way.

Years ago I remember hearing some Traditionalists in my Parish say that the Latin is the best language for the Universal Church–anywhere you go it is always the same. Besides, they would explain, the English is written right alongside of the Latin.

I would roll my eyes.

I freely admit, too, that my opinion is subjective. I have more than just an aquaintance with three of the Romance languages. I am conversant in Italian, French and Spanish, so the Latin is not such a stretch for me. I am sure as I become used to the ordinary prayers of the Latin Mass I will have no trouble understanding where I am in the Liturgy. Of course the ‘Agnus Dei’ has become more prevalent in the NO Masses I have attended the last couple of years, and I had no trouble learning that after a couple of Sundays.

The readings are done in English, as is the Homily. For me, those are the ‘thinking’ parts of the Mass.

I am a Novos Ordo Mass Catholic, born and raised with it. I have a love for it. I haven’t found a truly reverant one since leaving Texas almost three years ago now.

I guess what I’m saying is that 40 years ago Peter bound the Novos Ordo on earth, so it is bound in heaven. Recently Peter bound a return of the Traditional Latin Mass on earth, so it is bound in heaven–and it does not matter what any of us say, Peter has spoken. It does not HAVE to be one or the other. Same that you don’t have to be like me, I don’t have to be like you. As Paul tells us, we are each given different gifts. So, it can be both! And fortunate for all of us that it can be both. We can all find our home. I am thankful to God for giving us Peter. Viva Papa Benedetto XVI.

 

[tradconvert]

I finally converted around ten years ago, having once again discovered the traditional latin mass (plus the full practice of the Catholic faith). I had gone pretty close to converting as a college student in the late sixties, but did not carry through with it because for me the Vatican II reforms took away the beauty and mystery of the Catholic faith.

Simply speaking I chose not to convert then (wrongly I agree, because I should have become a Catholic regardless) because I did not see any real distinction between the new reforms and the protestant “services” of my youth. I fell away from practising any faith at all until I discovered an SSPX chapel offering the full traditional mass and traditional practices of the faith not too far from home. While obviously seeds had been planted 30 years before, there was certainly no turning back this time and I now only attend the traditional mass (not just SSPX) wherever and whenever possible

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I finally converted around ten years ago, having once again discovered the traditional latin mass (plus the full practice of the Catholic faith). I had gone pretty close to converting as a college student in the late sixties, but did not carry through with it because for me the Vatican II reforms took away the beauty and mystery of the Catholic faith.

Simply speaking I chose not to convert then (wrongly I agree, because I should have become a Catholic regardless) because I did not see any real distinction between the new reforms and the protestant “services” of my youth. I fell away from practising any faith at all until I discovered an SSPX chapel offering the full traditional mass and traditional practices of the faith not too far from home. While obviously seeds had been planted 30 years before, there was certainly no turning back this time and I now only attend the traditional mass (not just SSPX) wherever and whenever possible

Wow, that’s amazing, that’s not my experience at all. I was raised Baptist, and I’ve attended Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, and Church of Christ services. What were you raised as? I spent five years in the Episcopal Church, which does have similarities to the Pauline Rite, but their service has antecedents in the Old Sarum Rite, drawing on many of the same sources as the Pauline Rite.

 

[AJV]

I spent five years in the Episcopal Church, which does have similarities to the Pauline Rite

Not really, in the 1960’s, where the official BCP to be used was the 1928 BCP rather than the current 1979.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Not really, in the 1960’s, where the official BCP to be used was the 1928 BCP rather than the current 1979.

I only meant in the structure, AJV. I think it’s generally rubbish that the Pauline Rite resembles Protestant worship, since Protestants would have also drawn on their heritage that they have in common with us, we’d have to drop an awful lot in any effort to completely get rid of anything they’d ever done or copied or whatever.

 

[Windmill]

I know that the Eastern Orthodox are scandalized by the reforms of Vatican II. They have assiduously maintained their rites throughout centuries of persecution, and they are concerned about how quickly we abandoned the old rite of Mass (which, incidently, is older than the eastern rites of Mass). In their eyes, someting as sacred as the Holy Mass should not be treated so casually.

I find it interesting that we don’t bother ourselves with the fears of the EOC’s - the only churches with whom we can reasonably expect a reunification. With the ordination of Anglican women to the Anglican Epsicopacy, Vatican officials have said that there is no longer any hope for reunification with Canterbury. Protestants are off the ecumenical radar screen altogether. There can be no compromise with Protestantism, so you are looking at conversion, not reunification.

The church had the right to change the Mass, but I think it has really upset many inside and outside the Catholic faith. BXVI knows this, and it may be one motivation for signing the upcoming Motu Proprio that will loosen up restrictions on the TLM. It will help alleviate concerns of the EO and the SSPX.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I know that the Eastern Orthodox are scandalized by the reforms of Vatican II. They have assiduously maintained their rites throughout centuries of persecution, and they are concerned about how quickly we abandoned the old rite of Mass (which, incidently, is older than the eastern rites of Mass). In their eyes, someting as sacred as the Holy Mass should not be treated so casually.

I find it interesting that we don’t bother ourselves with the fears of the EOC’s - the only churches with whom we can reasonably expect a reunification. With the ordination of Anglican women to the Anglican Epsicopacy, Vatican officials have said that there is no longer any hope for reunification with Canterbury. Protestants are off the ecumenical radar screen altogether. There can be no compromise with Protestantism, so you are looking at conversion, not reunification.

The church had the right to change the Mass, but I think it has really upset many inside and outside the Catholic faith. BXVI knows this, and it may be one motivation for signing the upcoming Motu Proprio that will loosen up restrictions on the TLM. It will help alleviate concerns of the EO and the SSPX.

Regarding the NO: All this is only true if you accept the theory that the NO was made up to satisfy protestants. I’ve yet to have pointed out to me a single credible source that supports this.

And I think the Church is far more concerned with efforts with the EO than with the various Protestant groups, esp. throughout the pontificate of John Paul the Great and now under Benedict XVI.

 

[Windmill]

what part is only true if you assume the NO was created to satisfy Protestants? why can’t we just look at the NO as is -without assuming any agendas?

 

[AJV]

I only meant in the structure, AJV.

Even in that, JKirk…Gloria at the end of service, Ten commandments or summary of the Law with “Lord have mercy” in the middle, confession of sin in the middle of the service, two readings, no special texts for classes of saints-martyrs, bishops, etc., etc.

 

[palmas85]

what part is only true if you assume the NO was created to satisfy Protestants? why can’t we just look at the NO as is -without assuming any agendas?

Well, I would imagine that the reason is because there must have been an agenda of some kind, even if not specifically to satisfy Protestant sensibilities, otherwise why would they have created it in the first place? That they would do done something that radical without an agenda is mind boggling.

There has to be a reason they created something so totally and completely different than what it replaced. I mean lets be real, they had to have had an agenda of some sort. I have theory on what they were trying to do, but its only a theory.

 

[sir_galahad]

How many Protestants have been converted due to the NO Mass? I think it more likely that they’ve incorporated certain elements of it into their own Communion services. I also think it more likely that Protestants find something in the traditional liturgy that’s sadly lacking in their own services, as dignified as some of them most likely are (the Book of Common Prayer comes to mind). I remember reading three truly tragic things about the post-Vatican II Church on Anglo-Catholic websites: 1. We liked Rome better when they didn’t like us; 2. I’d go over to Rome if it didn’t mean giving up being Catholic; 3. Catholic and Episcopal church services are very similar today. Of course, that’s ridiculous. The Church can neither deceive nor be deceived and it doesn’t officially teach anything that’s less than Catholic. But part of the mystique of the Catholic Church was that it was so different, not only in doctrine, but in liturgical practices, from Protestants. Maybe the NO Mass did make the conversion of some Protestants to Catholicism easier… if so, I’m thrilled for them. But I wonder how many more Protestants have erroneously thought: Hmm, they’re coming around to our way of thinking.

 

[st_bernard]

How many Protestants have been converted due to the NO Mass? I think it more likely that they’ve incorporated certain elements of it into their own Communion services. I also think it more likely that Protestants find something in the traditional liturgy that’s sadly lacking in their own services, as dignified as some of them most likely are (the Book of Common Prayer comes to mind). I remember reading three truly tragic things about the post-Vatican II Church on Anglo-Catholic websites: 1. We liked Rome better when they didn’t like us; 2. I’d go over to Rome if it didn’t mean giving up being Catholic; 3. Catholic and Episcopal church services are very similar today. Of course, that’s ridiculous. The Church can neither deceive nor be deceived and it doesn’t officially teach anything that’s less than Catholic. But part of the mystique of the Catholic Church was that it was so different, not only in doctrine, but in liturgical practices, from Protestants. Maybe the NO Mass did make the conversion of some Protestants to Catholicism easier… if so, I’m thrilled for them. But I wonder how many more Protestants have erroneously thought: Hmm, they’re coming around to our way of thinking.

Gratia et pax vobiscum,

Nice post.

I believe the real question is, when they came over did they really convert to Catholicism or are they just taking their meals at a new protestant church?

“…the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXIII of the Council of Trent.” (A SHORT CRITICAL STUDY OF THE NOVUS ORDO MISSAE, Sept. 25, 1969)

Gratias

 

[Triumpha]

And I think the Church is far more concerned with efforts with the EO than with the various Protestant groups, esp. throughout the pontificate of John Paul the Great and now under Benedict XVI.

Odd that. The New Rite is further removed from Orthodox liturgy than the Tridentine! If anything, the New Rite has hampered efforts in respect of the Orthodox Churches.

Triumpha.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The Scot poet Robert Burns said, “Oh, the gift to gi us. To see us as others see us”. How true. Most fascinating thread.

I grew up with the TLM and was an altar boy both during and after the change to the NO. I have to say that I quit the Church for about 8 years because I could not stand the guitars and the Muppet Music or as one of my old choir directors called it - “sacro-pop”.

I was invited to go to an Eastern Orthodox Holy Saturday liturgy in 1976 and to eat a traditional Greek Easter Sunday morning dinner. I cried. I had not seen such reverence in years and although the liturgy was in Greek, it was perfectly understandable what was going on. That same year I moved here to go to grad school and discovered my current reverent NO parish in which we do use incense; the choir does sing Latin motets; and the entire congregation chants the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Greek and Latin during Lent.

I have seen my parish grow from 150 families in 1978 to well over a thousand today. This is a downtown cathedral parish with a very small population of people who actually live within the parish boundaries. When I joined, I had to get permission from my local parish to switch (that’s another story ). Now anyone can become a member of the cathedral parish. We usually have 12 - 15 catechumens and candidates in our RCIA program every year. Not to mention the number of Catholics in other parishes in the diocese who join.

The biggest attraction for all this growth? Reverent liturgy. Use of incense. Use of Latin. Choir and organ - not drums and guitars.

One of our choir members married an Episcopalian and we sang for their wedding at a local Episcopalian church. The NO and the Episcopal liturgy are nigh unto the same.