Vatican II Reforms - Impact on Converts

[palmas85]

Gratia et pax vobiscum,

Nice post.

I believe the real question is, when they came over did they really convert to Catholicism or are they just taking their meals at a new protestant church?

“…the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXIII of the Council of Trent.” (A SHORT CRITICAL STUDY OF THE NOVUS ORDO MISSAE, Sept. 25, 1969)

Gratias

I have often wondered about this as well. I suspect, though I am not positive , and have been raked over the coals for saying so on this forum, but, I get the impression that not a few and in fact many of the recent converts would not have converted had the Mass still been in Latin and the reforms of Vatican II had not been as dramatic as they were.

I have noticed that many of the most vociferous opponents of a general return to the Traditional Mass are relatively recent converts to the faith. I know from personal experience in my own Parish, that a large number of converts there are dead set against any move towards traditional Catholicism and in general seem perplexed that anyone would want such a thing.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have often wondered about this as well. I suspect, though I am not positive , and have been raked over the coals for saying so on this forum, but, I get the impression that not a few and in fact many of the recent converts would not have converted had the Mass still been in Latin and the reforms of Vatican II had not been as dramatic as they were.

I have noticed that many of the most vociferous opponents of a general return to the Traditional Mass are relatively recent converts to the faith. I know from personal experience in my own Parish, that a large number of converts there are dead set against any move towards traditional Catholicism and in general seem perplexed that anyone would want such a thing.

The thing I question is why the reticence? It’s not as though the TLM is going to supplant the NO. I don’t believe anyone would be forcing anyone else to attend a TLM. Something has got to be in the works or Father would not be asking me and several of the older choir members if we would be willing to form a Gregorian Chant choir.

 

[Windmill]

Odd that. The New Rite is further removed from Orthodox liturgy than the Tridentine! If anything, the New Rite has hampered efforts in respect of the Orthodox Churches.

Triumpha.

Triumpha,

my point, exactly.

 

[m134e5]

I was drawn to the Church through its heritage of sacred art, architecture, and music. I was attracted to the Catholic atmosphere I had seen portrayed in movies like The Sound of Music, The Bells of St. Mary’s, and Going My Way. I researched the Catholic Faith, learned about moral theology and Church history. I also experienced, I guess what you’d call the more mystical side of Catholicism (I didn’t levitate or anything, but I sure felt something the first time I went into an adoration chapel) the part which no liturgical reforms can take away. Some of the first songs I heard at Mass were Song of the Body of Christ, On Eagle’s Wings, and Here I Am Lord. I thought two out of three of those were ridiculous (and still do to this day)- but didn’t know they were standard. My faith was personal enough by then to keep me in the Church, and I have been blessed to find a parish that is traditional and orthodox- and to be in a diocese with a bishop who promotes tradition and orthodoxy.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Some of the first songs I heard at Mass were Song of the Body of Christ, On Eagle’s Wings, and Here I Am Lord. I thought two out of three of those were ridiculous (and still do to this day)- but didn’t know they were standard. My faith was personal enough by then to keep me in the Church, and I have been blessed to find a parish that is traditional and orthodox- and to be in a diocese with a bishop who promotes tradition and orthodoxy.

Thank you! I’m not insane! I have to sing Here I Am Lord for diocesan ordinations. It is painful. We only sing On Eagle’s Wings for diocesan liturgies and I am happily not familiar with the Song of the Body of Christ. But I can tell you that in rehearsal that several wags in our choir jumped up from their seats when being subjected to sing “I Will Go Up”! Far too many cradle Catholics do not know any other music than this.

We don’t have the choral forces to sing the 32 part Spem in Allium but we do 8 part motets quite nicely. Let’s hear it for orthodoxy and traditionalism!

 

[Windmill]

i wonder how the congregation would respond if you tried something more conservative and ethereal? that is, in my opinion, what people want - ethereal. people want to feel like they touched heaven when they come out of mass.

a good rule of thumb, if you can imagine a muppet singing the song, then it needs to be nixed.

Also, if you must keep reminding yourself “I AM at a solemn sacrifice” throughout the mass, then something is wrong.

 

[lak611]

Thank you! I’m not insane! I have to sing Here I Am Lord for diocesan ordinations. It is painful. We only sing On Eagle’s Wings for diocesan liturgies and I am happily not familiar with the Song of the Body of Christ. But I can tell you that in rehearsal that several wags in our choir jumped up from their seats when being subjected to sing “I Will Go Up”! Far too many cradle Catholics do not know any other music than this.

I don’t like “On Eagle’s Wings” either. I don’t know “Song of the Body of Christ”, and most likely would not want to know it. I never heard “I Will Go Up”. Is that a really horrible Haugen/Haas song?

 

[brotherhrolf]

No, it’s a Michael Joncas piece. I can easily see Kermit and Miss Piggy singing it. He’s the composer of On Eagle’s Wings.

 

[lak611]

No, it’s a Michael Joncas piece. I can easily see Kermit and Miss Piggy singing it. He’s the composer of On Eagle’s Wings.

Well, I put Joncas in the same category as Haugen/Haas.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

I have no idea if any of that makes any sense at all.

Maurin,
What you have said makes perfect sense to me.

I, too, am a convert of about twenty years…I had no idea that there was a Traditionalism 'till a couple of years ago.

I have always felt a longing for something I never knew, and I realize now that it is Tradition…I do not presently attend a TLM, but I do appreciate the theology behind it, and feel that it more perfectly embodies the Catholic faith than the NO…

I have never thought that the priest praying the Mass with his back to the congregation was a bad thing…I think it is a sign that he, and we, are praying together, to the Most Holy God.

Congratulations on your first visit to the TLM. I hope you have found your home…

CH

 

[Catholic_Heart]

Thank you! I’m not insane! I have to sing Here I Am Lord for diocesan ordinations. It is painful. We only sing On Eagle’s Wings for diocesan liturgies and I am happily not familiar with the Song of the Body of Christ. But I can tell you that in rehearsal that several wags in our choir jumped up from their seats when being subjected to sing “I Will Go Up”! Far too many cradle Catholics do not know any other music than this.

We don’t have the choral forces to sing the 32 part Spem in Allium but we do 8 part motets quite nicely. Let’s hear it for orthodoxy and traditionalism!

Many families in our NO parish regularly request On Eagle’s Wings for funerals…I am usually singing, and it makes me gag…I have instructed one and all not to sing this at my funeral. It really isn’t too bad, but is greatly overused.

I once heard David Hass…who wrote On Eagle’s Wings, say that you had to beware of a song that started with You Hoooo…

CH

 

[maregough]

We have a paid liturgist and she is producing the Mass like a Broadway stage play. All communicants must approach the table in a very akward and unusual manner. My friend’s hubby is an usher and I asked her how things were going. She said the ushers are collecting signatures to send to the Bishop to express there displeasure with this new communion setup. As he asked one of the ladies she said no she would not sign and anyway the Pope is going to bring back the Latin Mass. To this my friend replied with much animous " I will go back to the Episcopal Church." She has expressed to me several times how there is no point to going to mass that she does not understand. I do not know how to explain the mystery, reverence and oneness that takes place at the Mass.

Our Pastor wants us to be in community with one another at Mass (a lot of handshaking and greeting). We are to sing after we recieve the Euchrist. I want to pray and be at one with My Lord after communion. I can have coffee and chat with my neighbor after Mass.

I feel I am being shutout and my ideas about Church just don’t work now. I can just hear them in the boardroom, “C’mon now we gotta get these numbers up so let’s come up with some fresh ideas to satisfy our sharholders.” This is the 21st Century that old spaceship that Buck Rodgers used is passe. If we can put men on the Moon we can sure get this Church moving in a new direction.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Many families in our NO parish regularly request On Eagle’s Wings for funerals…I am usually singing, and it makes me gag…I have instructed one and all not to sing this at my funeral. It really isn’t too bad, but is greatly overused.

I once heard David Hass…who wrote On Eagle’s Wings, say that you had to beware of a song that started with You Hoooo…

CH

Won’t be sung at my funeral either. No Muppet Music at my funeral. When our bishop died in the early 90s, we sang the Faure Requiem. Gentle music for a gentle man. And a humble man - he was buried in a pine coffin constructed by the Benedictine monks at a nearby abbey.

 

[PauseBreak]

Well Vatican 2 is why I will not join the Church the reforms are just sad the Mass has become a bad copy of Lutheranism.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Since I was born about 20 years after Vatican II, I can’t say I’ve really thought about Vatican II’s affect on my conversion. I don’t think it hindered my conversion, but I don’t know if it helped. I don’t think I ever really thought about it too much.

 

[Manfred]

i wonder how the congregation would respond if you tried something more conservative and ethereal? that is, in my opinion, what people want - ethereal. people want to feel like they touched heaven when they come out of mass.

a good rule of thumb, if you can imagine a muppet singing the song, then it needs to be nixed.

Also, if you must keep reminding yourself “I AM at a solemn sacrifice” throughout the mass, then something is wrong.

Windmill,

In this, thou hast answered rightly.

Manfred

 

[devotus]

I too am a convert (2000) from Lutheranism and would not be Catholic with out the TLM and a Strong Catholic parish.

Why in the world would i bother to convert when the Lutheran service is 90% plus the same as the N.O. especially the old red hymnal

 

[curmudgeon66]

I too am a convert from Lutheranism. And maybe, just maybe, the reson the NO mass seems so very very familiar to me is that it really is almost a complet copy of the Lutheran service, espceially as you say from the old red hymnal. The only thing different as I can remember it, is that after communion in the Lutheran service, there was a prayer called the Nunc Demitus (I may not have spelled that correctly). I actually miss that prayer very much, and say it my self after receiving communion at mass.

This has been a very interesting topic. I’ve been in the Catholic church almost 15 years now, although for most of them, it was as if I had only moved from one Lutheran parish to another. Lately I have really begun to learn more about the church and faith community that I joined, and I do feel that it was the right thing for me to do to have become Catholic. This may seem strange, but I belive Luther took me (well my ancestors really) away from the church, and by my becoming Catholic I have returned to where I should be had not that “detour” occured.

I was raised in a rather traditional Lutheran church in the 50s & 60s and really do see virtually no outward signs of difference between that and the current NO mass of the Catholic church. There is however a difference! And that difference is that while I attend a NO mass, it is still a MASS not a “service”, it is offered by a real priest, not a “pastor”, and while the “externals” or the form is simiar to the Lutheran, and maybe farther from the TLM. Even in the NO mass Christ is truely present in the mass. The form of the mass may seem incorrect to some, we may “feel” better in the TLM or some of us may feel better in the NO mass. But we must remember that we are attending a real mass, and that the Eucharist truely is Jesus in the mass, he was not truely present when I was in the Lutheran church, because the pastor was not a priest.

There are differences today between the NO mass and the TLM but as I said, to me those differences are in what I think of as the externals, the FORM of the mass, not in the true value of the mass which is the presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. That is the truely important part of the mass for me. And for His presence in any FORM of the mass, I am truely thankfull.

Andy

 

[lak611]

I too am a convert from Lutheranism. And maybe, just maybe, the reson the NO mass seems so very very familiar to me is that it really is almost a complet copy of the Lutheran service, espceially as you say from the old red hymnal. The only thing different as I can remember it, is that after communion in the Lutheran service, there was a prayer called the Nunc Demitus (I may not have spelled that correctly). I actually miss that prayer very much, and say it my self after receiving communion at mass.

Nunc Dimittis, or the Canticle of Simeon, is prayed in the Liturgy of the Hours in the Catholic Church. From Wikipedia: "Compline (pronounced: ˈkɒmplɪn]; also Complin, Night Prayer, Prayers at the End of the Day) is the final church service (or office) of the day in the Christian tradition of canonical hours. The word compline is derived from the Latin completorium, as Compline is the completion of the liturgical day. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, and certain other Christian denominations with liturgical traditions prescribe Compline services. Compline tends to be a contemplative office that emphasizes spiritual peace.

In the Roman Catholic Liturgy of the Hours, Compline is divided as follows: introduction, brief examination of conscience and penitential rite, a hymn, psalmody with accompanying antiphons, scriptural reading, the responsory, the Canticle of Simeon, concluding prayer, and benediction; the final antiphon to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an essential part of the office." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline

 

[rocketrob]

There are differences today between the NO mass and the TLM but as I said, to me those differences are in what I think of as the externals, the FORM of the mass, not in the true value of the mass which is the presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. That is the truely important part of the mass for me. And for His presence in any FORM of the mass, I am truely thankfull.

Andy

Well said. The real reasons to join and cherish the Catholic Faith involve the True Bread of Life, Apostolic succession, double the number of sacraments, Scripture AND Tradition, the communion of Saints, the Magisterium of the Church established by Christ Himself, etc, etc, etc.