Vatican II

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samoht said:
Also if you will read again what I initially said you will see that the Vatican II documents changed anything. I said that the church leaders have allowed too many of the good things slip away without doing anything about it.
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Well, no, actually that is not what you initially said. You titled your thread Vatican II.

In your first post you said “Concerning Vatican II I would like to know why so many things of tradition have changed and changed to the detrement not the benefit of Catholics.”

That post said absolutely **nothing **about church leaders allowing too many “good things” to slip away without doing anything about it.
 
samoht said:
What I meant about the prayer for peace is that the priest would neel on the stairs that approached the altar and say the prayer for peace. That was before Vatican II. Maybe you are not old enough to have witnessed that.

Thomas Eby
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You’re probably referring to the “Prayers after Low Mass”.

These were not prayers for peace, but prayers for the church in Russia.

They included three Hail Mary’s and the prayer to St. Michael.

They were never a part of the Mass, coming after the Last Gospel, and were only said after a low Mass. In fact, they were added after 1917 and Fatima
 
samoht said:
What I meant about the prayer for peace is that the priest would neel on the stairs that approached the altar and say the prayer for peace. That was before Vatican II. Maybe you are not old enough to have witnessed that.

Thomas Eby
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You are referring to the Leonine prayers. Those were only said after Low Masses, and technically they were not part of the Mass. The Mass was already over at that point.
 
1ke said:
It is the business of the Church to lead souls to Christ. I don’t believe anyone here has stated otherwise.

Perhaps you can explain to us what, exactly, you believe has unraveled, how it unraveled, and what you believe to be cause of its unraveling.

I am not “blaming” myopia nor using it as an easy answer. I suggested that it is myopic to believe there is **one **cause for the particular things you mention and to **presume **that cause is the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II.

Bishops are not issued crystal balls when they take office.

I think the massive social changes since WWII caught many by surprise, both secular and religious. I do not think there is any one thing that caused the changes or could have prevented the changes. Those things that saw their fruition in the last few decades of the 20th century began in the century before, and probably before that. Personally, I lay much of it at the feet of the Reformation, rather than Vatican II. That one event so altered society that I think it placed it on the trajectory that led it to the place we are now.

Then why don’t you articulate what is wrong and what your simple solution is.
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  1. I will ask a few more questions. What particular social changes occurred since the end of WW II?
  2. Who are the people who give answers to these questions
    and what is their age range?
  3. Can you tell me who made up the Vatican council?
To Ike I will say I titled my thread “VATICAN II” because that is where all the changes started.
To Ike again I will say that the purpose of my thread is about why things changed and the laity cannot answer these questions so obviously meant that it is the leadership is where the changes had to be made. It is obvious that church leaders have to be the ones to allow anything to change otherwise why are they there other than to lead in morals and attitude. They were responsible for the tradition of the Mass and the church, were they not?

Bishops do not need crystal balls in order to know what is going on in their part of the church. Why is one elevated to bishop? When he is should he not know what is going on around him with his people? Are you telling me that these things are out of his control? If you are then I say he should not be there.

I will again tell you what has unraveled. You already know what I said about the altar facing the tabernacle and not the people. What about the statues that have all but disappeared? What about the hymns? Some of them do not even blend well with the music. Again, what about the way people allow themselves to be distracted and talk with their neighbor and forget about the movies or other public places? They are not the church.

When you tell me to give a simple solution to what has changed and to articulate why seems to be a bit condescending to me. Exactly what are you people about anyway. I may not be a mental giant but I will hold my own with anyone including anyone on your panel.

When I first I came to asking questions of you folks I was given to understand that I would receive good answers. Instead I am asked questions of my questions. I am begining to understand why you are called apologists. You seem to have an answer for every thing and an answer for nothing.

My older brother, a very devout catholic man in his 80’s steered me toward you and told me that I would come away with some satisfaction. So far I have nothing. And I was given the impression you were good catholics and christians. Your attitudes seem to give me no feeling of that.

I am a man of 72 years and have experienced much in life. I was born, baptized and raised catholic. Going to catholic school all my life studying to be an altar boy and sang in many choirs. And now by the church that I loved I am almost chastised by some of you who may not have become catholic until later in life I find quite ironic. If you wish to be of service to anyone I would not utter another word until I searched my soul for what I am doing this for in these forums.

Do you know who Diogenes was? Well, he was a man that was searching for just one truthful man.

I cannot say that you anger me for I realize that you seem to be with the creators of all that has happened since Vatican II. You just want to go along to get along.

I will still say God bless you all and bring you to reality.

Thomas Eby
 
samoht said:
When I first I came to asking questions of you folks I was given to understand that I would receive good answers. Instead I am asked questions of my questions. I am begining to understand why you are called apologists. You seem to have an answer for every thing and an answer for nothing.
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Dear Thomas,
Many of the people here (some of us anyway) are lay people with a lot of time on their hands. There are some experts and some not-so-experts.
I think the reason people are taking you to task is that sometimes people will come here and ask questions just to start an argument. People might think you’re a sedevacantist trying to start a debate. Don’t take it personally.
There are lots of threads in the Traditional Catholicism forum about Vatican II and what happened, you might enjoy reading those.
Sincerely,
Neil
 
First off, The Tradition of the Church has not and never will change…it will remain steadfast…you are confusing personal interpretation by lay Catholics and out of touch Bishops and the “spirit of Vatican II” with what the Council really intended…The “Spirit of VII” has led to so many horrific abuses…they can no longer be counted. The Council never called for the stripping of the Altars or the removal of statues or the removal of Latin all together or the Orans Posture…or for people to wear sports bras and athletic shorts to Mass…or even Clown outfits contrary to public opinion…what we have is a misinterpretation by people and to inflame the situation even futher, we have well catechized Catholics who stand by and allow the abuses to take place.
samoht said:
Concerning Vatican II I would like to know why so many things of tradition have changed and changed to the detrement not the benefit of Catholics.

I have heard many reasons from lay people and priests but none of them can assure me that they were for the best. To name a few: the atrocious and careless way people dress for Mass? the talking to ones neighbor while attending Mass? the prayer for peace at the end of the Mass? the communion served by lay people? the elimination of the communion rail? the altar turned toward the people?

These and many other questions have I and no real substantial answers.

Can anyone answer these questions?

Thank you and God Bless you

Thomas Eby
thomaseby07@comcast.net
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samoht said:
  1. I will ask a few more questions. What particular social changes occurred since the end of WW II?
  2. Who are the people who give answers to these questions
    and what is their age range?
  3. Can you tell me who made up the Vatican council?
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Let me give these three questions a shot:

#2 first: I can’t answer for everyone, but I am 60 and a pre-Vatican II Catholic–baptized on Feb. 29, 1948, and made my first Communion on Dec. 6, 1954.

#3: The second Vatican Council was made up of Bishops and Cardinals, nearly all in their 50s and up. This means they had been appointed by Pope Pius XII, Pope Pius XI, and possibly Pope Benedict XV, hardly Modernists.
  1. The social changes after WWII where astounding.
Society was recovering from the most horrendous episode in recorded (and probably unrecorded) history. I’ve read death toll was 50 million or more. Virtually every nation on earth was affected. On top of this, post-war society faced the Cold War with the threat of nuclear war from the late 40s until the 80s.

I don’t have the time to even list all the societal changes that have taken place since 1945. Volumes have been written about just just decades or partial decades. For example, David Halberstam devoted 800 pages to one decade in The Fifties*.*

But I shouldn’t have to show you what changed. You were what, 10 or so when WWII ended, so you were a teenager and young adult during the post-war years and the changes in society and societal attitudes that occurred. You lived through most of them, as I did.

We can rail all we want about how bad they were, or how great they were. The fact is, they did occur. What we have to do now is work to change the bad and reinforce the good. We’ve got to play the cards we’ve been dealt. Unfortunately there is no “misdeal” in real life.

I can understand your dismay and sense of loss.

But remember, the Truth never changes. The people may change, practices may change, disciplines may change, language may change, but the TRUTH never changes.

*The Deposit of Faith and Truth the Church received from Christ and the Apostles has never changed nor will it ever change. *
 
IMO,
two of the things that should NEVER have been changed are:

a) The Last Gospel (John chapter 1) at the end of each Mass
followed by
b) The Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel
for the protection of Holy Church at the very end.
These could be brought back easily, and done after the dismissal but before the recessional hymn.

Pope Leo the 13th received that Archangel Michael prayer in a vision in which he saw the horrendous diabolical dangers threatening the Church, the faith, and the faithFUL in our day.

Something else should never have been dropped:
the requirement that all candidates for ordination take
the Oath Against Modernism.

Other than those things, I think, most of the bad fruit post Vatican II is caused by Liberals spreading the FALSE “SPIRIT” of Vatican II rather than by Vatican II itself.

Jaypeeto4
 
samoht said:
Concerning Vatican II I would like to know why so many things of tradition have changed and changed to the detrement not the benefit of Catholics.

I have heard many reasons from lay people and priests but none of them can assure me that they were for the best. To name a few: the atrocious and careless way people dress for Mass? the talking to ones neighbor while attending Mass? the prayer for peace at the end of the Mass? the communion served by lay people? the elimination of the communion rail? the altar turned toward the people?

These and many other questions have I and no real substantial answers.

Can anyone answer these questions?

Thank you and God Bless you

Thomas Eby
thomaseby07@comcast.net
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The Second Vatican Council didn’t say anything about these things really (accept that lay people could distribute communion in extraordinary circumstances).
 
samoht said:
Now that I know where to find the documents I will be reading them. Tho reading them will change nothing. It is the tradition and reverance that has changed. I would imagine that when you say I do not know what I am talking about that you did not experience much of what took place prior to Vatican II. I would also think that you are quite pleased with the way things are in the churches today. I am not. Also if you will read again what I initially said you will see that the Vatican II documents changed anything. I said that the church leaders have allowed too many of the good things slip away without doing anything about it. You may want to open your eyes a bit more and see that is the truth.

You know, my friend, that there is nothing wrong with your speaking out when you know things are not going well. But maybe you are satisfied. I am not.

Thomas Eby
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Yor attitude reminds me of something St John of the Cross said in Dark Night of the Soul:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervor, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arises to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Dear Thomas,
Many of the people here (some of us anyway) are lay people with a lot of time on their hands. There are some experts and some not-so-experts.
I think the reason people are taking you to task is that sometimes people will come here and ask questions just to start an argument. People might think you’re a sedevacantist trying to start a debate. Don’t take it personally.
There are lots of threads in the Traditional Catholicism forum about Vatican II and what happened, you might enjoy reading those.
Sincerely,
Neil
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Thank you Neil, for your comments. You are the first one, so far, that has answered a question directly. When I first posted a thread I was very amused to find how quickly it was answered. I wondered how could it be answered just at the minute as I posted it. I now realize that there are some that do have too much time on their hands and are just ready to pounce on any question the minute it is posted. Very interesting. Maybe some of these people need to reach out to others and volunteer some of their free time.

I can tell you that I do not take things personally. That is just not my nature. I can only get offended if someone attacks my family and then as taught in Army Ranger School I would be a formidable force to deal with.

One thing I will never do is argue over religion or politics. I will discuss with anyone but I will not enter nor start an argument because it serves no purpose and the end result is the same…negativity.

I notice that there are different dates for all of you as to when you started to answer questions. Where do all of you come from? Are there any priests or nuns involved?

It seems to me that some of the answers given are off the top of the head. Might that be true?

One of my questions has not been answered yet as far as I know. That is does anyone know who was on the council for Vatican II? Were there any outsiders? I mean those of other christian denominations. And if there were why were they there?
If an answer is not known please do not guess. Personally I have heard that there were ministers from other faiths and is that true?

Thanks again.
Thomas Eby…
 
samoht said:
One of my questions has not been answered yet as far as I know. That is does anyone know who was on the council for Vatican II? Were there any outsiders? I mean those of other christian denominations. And if there were why were they there?
If an answer is not known please do not guess. Personally I have heard that there were ministers from other faiths and is that true?

Thanks again.
Thomas Eby…
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A question looming large in my mind about this whole thread —

have you done anything yourself that could count in any way as research???
 
michaeldaniels said:
First off, The Tradition of the Church has not and never will change…it will remain steadfast…you are confusing personal interpretation by lay Catholics and out of touch Bishops and the “spirit of Vatican II” with what the Council really intended…The “Spirit of VII” has led to so many horrific abuses…they can no longer be counted. The Council never called for the stripping of the Altars or the removal of statues or the removal of Latin all together or the Orans Posture…or for people to wear sports bras and athletic shorts to Mass…or even Clown outfits contrary to public opinion…what we have is a misinterpretation by people and to inflame the situation even futher, we have well catechized Catholics who stand by and allow the abuses to take place.
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Thank you for your response, Michael.
You seem to agree that there are so many abuses so I would like to ask you how you see it that all the churches seemed to take on the mantle of all of those abuses at approximately the same time. I think you know what I mean. The slovenly dress, the talking in church instead of reveance, the taking down of the beautiful statues, etc. How did that fire spread so evenly and continue to do so? And why do you think that the priests and bishops ignored all that was going on. The priests are there every day and the bishops should know what is going on in their diocese’s. How could they not see all this coming?

Thomas Eby
 
samoht said:
Thank you Neil, for your comments. You are the first one, so far, that has answered a question directly. When I first posted a thread I was very amused to find how quickly it was answered. I wondered how could it be answered just at the minute as I posted it. I now realize that there are some that do have too much time on their hands and are just ready to pounce on any question the minute it is posted. Very interesting. Maybe some of these people need to reach out to others and volunteer some of their free time.
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I just realized that you might be looking for the “ask an expert” forum, where you can post a question and have it answered by an expert, who is either a priest or a trained apologist. This area that you are posting in is more of a peer discussion area. Anyone can post or answer questions here.

To ask an expert, go here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=84
 
Eilish_Maura said:
The last paragraph of #31 – not knowing where/how to find copies of the documents would be another.
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I see nothing in the last paragraph of #31 that is out of order. Please explain.

As far as finding copies of the documents I believe there are millions of catholics that never knew where to find them. Many probably did not even know that these documents were available to the laity.
 
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