Vatican II

[wisdomseeker]

Didn’t you ever read the translation on the opposite side?

i think there is a symbolic meaning for us as Catholics. the Latin is a symbol that all Catholic speak one language and not many. one nation speaking one language no matter where we are. Latin is important because it does not change with time. plus we have problems also in finding the right translation and many words get lost and loose real meaning when transling from language to language. it seems that the Mass became very simplified. in Latin we can see how the praise to our Lord is much more beautifull than in english. today’s Mass is rushed through it with the music being very annoying and fast. everything is so fast that there is no time to even tune in with our Lord. i have been to a Latin Mass and i can tell the difference. there is peace, there is silence. the Latin hymns are beautiful and peacefull. we see the calmness in the people. we see reverence and respect for the house of Prayer,

now, if the NO mass is close to the Latin Mass it may also be beautiful. but i have not seen one yet. everyone i got to it is a dissapointment. each one is worse then other.

it is scary.

 

[pnewton]

it seems that the Mass became very simplified. in Latin we can see how the praise to our Lord is much more beautifull than in english.

In I Corinthians chapter 12 Paul addresse the issue of edifying God with words that are understood and words that are unknown. I do not think he agrees taht praise is more beautiful the less it is understood.

 

[Malkin71]

In I Corinthians chapter 12 Paul addresse the issue of edifying God with words that are understood and words that are unknown. I do not think he agrees taht praise is more beautiful the less it is understood.

How log has Latin been involved in the church? It has been around for a long time. Because people do not want Latin to be involved in the Mass. Strange, I was born during the year that the O.F. was instituted. My first E.F. Mass was in 2004. After a few times I could follow along. I did not have any Latin Language training. I do have a copy of the latin Missal which I read.

Latin is not a unknown language. It has been around for a very long time. Wasn’t the New Testament in Greek and translated to Latin by St. Jerome?

To fully understand the early church. Classical languages should be taught in schools, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Etc… If people would have a little background on them, in my opinion they would have a greatly better understanding of the early Church.

 

[ncjohn]

i think there is a symbolic meaning for us as Catholics. the Latin is a symbol that all Catholic speak one language and not many. one nation speaking one language no matter where we are.

And yet we speak all kinds of different languages without it making us any less Catholic. Speaking only one language in liturgy won’t make us any more Catholic and cuts a great number of people out from being able to understand what is going on in the liturgy, potentially making them less able to achieve their full Catholic potential.

Latin is important because it does not change with time. plus we have problems also in finding the right translation and many words get lost and loose real meaning when transling from language to language.

Except that Latin is itself a translation from the original languags and there is difficulty in translating some parts of scripture into any language as the original words were either not understood or could have multiple meanings.

Then there is the second problem that the Latin has to be retranslated in our own languages anyway so we will understand what it is saying. So the translation issue is there regardless and whatever meaning is going to be lost will be lost regardless. This is then compounded by trying to listen while simultaneously reading in another language. For some this is not an issue; for others it is a big issue.

now, if the NO mass is close to the Latin Mass it may also be beautiful. but i have not seen one yet. everyone i got to it is a dissapointment. each one is worse then other.

it is scary.

And there are those of us with the exact opposite opinions and experiences, or who can find beauty in either and both. My experiences with Latin Masses pre-Vatican II were abysmal and I saw far more abuses in those relatively few years than I have seen in all of the post Vatican II years combined. There was absolutely nothing “beautiful” about those rushed, spiritless liturgies that I experienced and served at.

Perhaps the different tone of the TLM calls more to you, and that’s fine. Not caring for the OF is also fine, as long as that’s just personal opinion and preference and doesn’t imply that it is intrinsically inferior since the Pope himself has stated that they are equal in dignity. The only “objective truth” is that a licit Mass provides us with a valid consecration and the Body and Blood of Christ. “Beauty” or “transcendence” or “reverence” are all subjective and depend greatly on the way the Mass is presented and the personality of the person attending. A badly done or abused Mass is a badly done or abused Mass regardless of form. A well done Mass is a well done Mass regardless of form.

Peace,

 

[Ockham]

And yet we speak all kinds of different languages without it making us any less Catholic. Speaking only one language in liturgy won’t make us any more Catholic and cuts a great number of people out from being able to understand what is going on in the liturgy, potentially making them less able to achieve their full Catholic potential.

The word catholic is synonymous with universal, as in having one universal liturgical language or one universal liturgy for that matter.

 

[ncjohn]

The word catholic is synonymous with universal, as in having one universal liturgical language or one universal liturgy for that matter.

And yet at no time in our history, including the “glory years” have we had that. Let’s not forget that the Eastern liturgies are still 100% Catholic. And there were countries even during the Latin liturgy years, such as some of the Balkan areas, that did not use Latin.

Diversity in such things has never been an issue in the Church. The universality is in belief and in all being called.

Peace,

 

[Ockham]

If diversity is a good thing then why was the TLM effectively banned when the NO was thrust upon us? Why doesn’t every pope create his own Mass?

 

[Like]

olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

This survey is getting old but I don’t see any reason to believe there’s been a change. The seminaries overall are still in decline except for those teaching the Latin Mass and more traditional in their ways.

My research into the decline in Church attendance and belief began when one of my sisters told my Mom the Eucharist was merely a symbol. After my Mom recovered from that shock she asked me how my sister could think that way. After I discovered the Tridentine Mass and compared it to Bugnini’s Novus Ordo I wondered how my faith in the Real Presence remained intact.

I sure wish EXTREME Traditionalists would start using websites in complete communion with the Church.

“Our Lady of the Rosary Library is a non-profit, family apostolate that was established solely for the glory of God and the salvation of souls.” It works toward this self-stated goal in two ways: by providing Catholic literature at the lowest prices possible and by maintaining a library of online information about Catholicism. Unfortunately, the site is tainted by a lack of obedience and humility regarding the Liturgy. Much of the material found here directly rejects Vatican II and the New Mass. Additionally, the overall tone of the site subtly reinforces this stance. So, while there seems to be some useful information to be found here, other sources should be used when possible.
catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=865&repos=2&subrepos=0&searchid=460252

Clearly rejects the validity of the New Mass (Fidelity)

Some of the explanations of Catholic doctrine are incomplete or misleading. (Fidelity)

 

[pnewton]

Latin is not a unknown language. It has been around for a very long time.

Koine Greek is not unknown and has been around even longer. Yet it is unknown to most and most do not understand it.

Yes, we should teach Latin and I will encourage my son to take it in school. Yet the Church has to be pastoral and deal with reality not what should be.

 

[palmas85]

And yet at no time in our history, including the “glory years” have we had that. Let’s not forget that the Eastern liturgies are still 100% Catholic. And there were countries even during the Latin liturgy years, such as some of the Balkan areas, that did not use Latin.

Diversity in such things has never been an issue in the Church. The universality is in belief and in all being called.

Peace,

Let us also not forget that most of us here are of the Roman Rite, not of the eastern Liturgies. That important fact is often overlooked

 

[Malkin71]

Koine Greek is not unknown and has been around even longer. Yet it is unknown to most and most do not understand it.

Yes, we should teach Latin and I will encourage my son to take it in school. Yet the Church has to be pastoral and deal with reality not what should be.

If it was unknown to most why did St. Jerome translate the Bible into Latin from Greek? Why are the Church documents issued in Latin?

 

[Malkin71]

I sure wish EXTREME Traditionalists would start using websites in complete communion with the Church.

“Our Lady of the Rosary Library is a non-profit, family apostolate that was established solely for the glory of God and the salvation of souls.” It works toward this self-stated goal in two ways: by providing Catholic literature at the lowest prices possible and by maintaining a library of online information about Catholicism. Unfortunately, the site is tainted by a lack of obedience and humility regarding the Liturgy. Much of the material found here directly rejects Vatican II and the New Mass. Additionally, the overall tone of the site subtly reinforces this stance. So, while there seems to be some useful information to be found here, other sources should be used when possible.
catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=865&repos=2&subrepos=0&searchid=460252

Clearly rejects the validity of the New Mass (Fidelity)

Some of the explanations of Catholic doctrine are incomplete or misleading. (Fidelity)

The site does sell a lot of books from Tan Books for a lot less.

 

[Malkin71]

Let us also not forget that most of us here are of the Roman Rite, not of the eastern Liturgies. That important fact is often overlooked

Very true indeed. This is something very important.

 

[pnewton]

Let us also not forget that most of us here are of the Roman Rite, not of the eastern Liturgies. That important fact is often overlooked

Yet the existence of other rites shed light on the artificial aura that surrounds Latin as a special heavenly language.

All data must be considered.

 

[shuzo1189]

Yet the existence of other rites shed light on the artificial aura that surrounds Latin as a special heavenly language.

All data must be considered.

The reason we treat it like a heavenly language is because up until 1968 The Church treated it as a language sacra. Much like the Jews have Hebrew and the Muslims have Arabic.

 

[diggerdomer]

The reason we treat it like a heavenly language is because up until 1968 The Church treated it as a language sacra…

Part of the Church may have, but certainly not all of it. And it certainly was not that way for 1,968 years.

 

[shuzo1189]

Part of the Church may have, but certainly not all of it. And it certainly was not that way for 1,968 years.

Right just after 600 A.D. and Before 1968

 

[Tsuwano]

The word catholic is synonymous with universal, as in having one universal liturgical language or one universal liturgy for that matter.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “catholic” is not defined as universal in the sense that only one language is to be used in our liturgies. “First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head . . .” Also, “Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race.” The Catechism continues to explain that "Each particular Church is “catholic.” “The phrase “particular church”, which is the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession.” Pope Paul VI explained further “Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she puts down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world.” The Catechism continues "The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches “unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church.” Human culture is recognized as a vehicle of holiness and the universalism of the Church is not defiled by the variety of cultural expressions we use to worship God in our liturgy. Indeed, this variety highlights our catholicity because it focuses on the fact that our unity in not based on culture or language, but on the fact that Jesus Christ subsists within the Church. Our unity certainly accepts the use of Latin in our liturgies, but it is in no way dependent upon it.

 

[Tsuwano]

If diversity is a good thing then why was the TLM effectively banned when the NO was thrust upon us? Why doesn’t every pope create his own Mass?

The TLM was not banned but was relegated to the role of an extraordinary form of the liturgy because it no longer adequately reflected the dominant theologies the Church has used to define and explain itself.

 

[diggerdomer]

If it was unknown to most why did St. Jerome translate the Bible into Latin from Greek? Why are the Church documents issued in Latin?

I really don’t understand what you’re saying/asking, or how it applies to the message you responded to, so if I’m off base in any response please clarify.

Jerome translated into Latin because by then Latin was more commonly spoken and understood in the Empire than it had been previously. Hey…it was the “vernacular” now for many! So for those who couldn’t understand Greek or Hebrew, Jerome was putting it into the “common tongue”!

Why are Church documents issued in Latin? It’s just tradition, that’s all. No big deal, they’re free to issue them in any language they want. The “official” spoken language of the Vatican is Italian, the written one is Latin, but of course we’re part of a universal Church so all languages matter.