Vatican II

[Genesis315]

Just to add, those ignorant of Christ, but who have that supernatural faith by which they undonditionally love God and desire His way, truth, and life above anything else, are not rejecting His Son at all, but seeking Him–for He is the way, the truth, and the life.

Furthermore, He can be sought in other ways if one is innocently ignorant or revelation. Here are some examples:

St. Justin Martyr:

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, *logos

] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46).

St. Thomas, commenting on the statement in Romans that the invisible things of God can be known apart from revelation, says the following:

But a gloss says that by the *invisible things *of God is meant the person of the Father: “Whom no man has ever seen or can see” (1 Tim 6:16); by the *eternal power *the person of the Son: “Christ the power of God” (1 Cor 1:24); by *divinity *the person of the Holy Spirit, to whom goodness is appropriated…

…[they came to knowledge of] the Son, namely the first mind created, which they called the Father’s understanding paternum intellectum]…

(Commentary on Romans 122)

 

[Sirach2]

Wisdomseeker:

I certainly understand that those who never heard the Word of God and never knew about the Church, that God would accept them. for instance, the indians in far lands and so forth. but what has been happened is that many have taking these documents and exaggerated to make it look like that the Church is no longer necessary for salvation.

Salvation of the baptized in other religions does make them members of the Body of Christ. Baptism is so important that it is not given again, whenever the person who is lawfullly baptized converts to Catholicism. Therefore, if they have received remittance from original sin through their baptism, they are God’s children and heirs of the Kingdom and have been given the Holy Spirit, although they are not fully members of our faith.

All salvation comes through Christ and the Church, even though they may not have the sacramental helps available to Catholics, and it is more difficult for them than for us to live in God’s grace. That is why we must still catechize and strive to bring them into the one true faith.

 

[Genesis315]

Salvation of the baptized in other religions does make them members of the Body of Christ. Baptism is so important that it is not given again, whenever the person who is lawfullly baptized converts to Catholicism. Therefore, if they have received remittance from original sin through their baptism, they are God’s children and heirs of the Kingdom and have been given the Holy Spirit, although they are not fully members of our faith.

All salvation comes through Christ and the Church, even though they may not have the sacramental helps available to Catholics, and it is more difficult for them than for us to live in God’s grace. That is why we must still catechize and strive to bring them into the one true faith.

I would just qualify your good explanation with the facts that such a person can cast out the Holy Spirit through mortal sin like anyone else. Similarly, if they become guilty for their disbelief in those truths revealed by God (through obstinance, negligence of the truth, a desire for human respect, convenience, etc.) they truly become heretics who are cut off from the Body of Christ and cannot be saved.

 

[Lycorth]

Also, in regards to the baptized non-Catholics, their Baptism unites them to the Church. While irrepentant heretics cannot be saved, simply being wrong does not make one a heretic as St. Augustine explains:

“Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious animosity, especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected.”

Wonderful quote; Augustine never fails to inspire and illuminate. What is the source?

 

[Sirach2]

I totally agree, Genesis.

 

[Genesis315]

Wonderful quote; Augustine never fails to inspire and illuminate. What is the source?

It’s from this letter (although the translation is a little different in NewAdvent):

newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

“But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.”

 

[Lycorth]

It’s from this letter (although the translation is a little different in NewAdvent):

newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

“But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.”

Bookmarked. Thanks!

 

[Geremia]

Nostra Aetate

I think the gist of Nostra Ætate is that the Church doesn’t force conversions. Perhaps it intends that through the true elements in each religion, its adherents will discover the Catholic Church possesses the fullest fullness of that truth.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Is no one else disturbed by the apparent “contradiction” between Nostra Aetate and the Council of Florence? Its an interesting point that needs to be addressed.

 

[MarkThompson]

Is no one else disturbed by the apparent “contradiction” between Nostra Aetate and the Council of Florence? Its an interesting point that needs to be addressed.

If you were approaching it from the standpoint of someone who trusted the Church and knew that there could be no contradiction, how would you address it?

 

[Sirach2]

Nice response, Mark. From another post elsewhere on the forum:

Now in terms of obedience to the Church, we as Catholics are blest. We have been granted by God a teaching magisterium that cannot lead us into error in the areas of faith and morals. This means that we can trust the Church totally and obey completely the teaching magisterium of the Church. This ability to trust the Church completely provides us a excellent shield against the enemy. When we surrender to the teaching authority of the Church, we become protected from many of the lures and tricks of the enemy. The more we surrender, the more protected we become.

I don’t know where this constant questioning of doctrine originates, except that it surfaces so frequently on this forum, and brings the heart into a distrust of authority. No doubt about it, that it is the cobra’s playground. It reminds me of St. Peter, who had his own mission from Jesus, yet boldy asked Our Lord in Jn. 21:21,

“Lord, what about him?” Jesus said to him, “What if I want him to remain until I come? What concern is it of yours? You follow me.”

In the same way, when we get nebby about others’ salvation who are outside the church and probe into things that are not our concern, I think we will hear the same rebuke from Our Lord.

Faith, trust, filial submission, and the simplicity of a child are qualities very dear to God. Those who continually demand proofs and verification or they will not believe, exhibit distrust and an unwillingness to follow the Lord as a loyal son. It is a very subtle insidious temptation.

Ps. 131: “LORD, my heart is not proud; nor are my eyes haughty. I do not busy myself with great matters, with things too sublime for me. Rather, I have stilled my soul, hushed it like a weaned child.”

 

[CWBetts]

I think the gist of Nostra Ætate is that the Church doesn’t force conversions. Perhaps it intends that through the true elements in each religion, its adherents will discover the Catholic Church possesses the fullest fullness of that truth.

You are correct. Sorry for the traditionalists who long for the Wars of Religion, but coversions cannot be forced, which is consistent with St. Augustine.

 

[Sirach2]

CWBetts:

conversions cannot be forced, which is consistent with St. Augustine.

And is also confirmed recently by Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi:

1. Hence they are most certainly not genuine Christians who against their belief are forced to go into a church, to approach the altar and to receive the Sacraments; for the “faith without which it is impossible to please God” is an entirely free “submission of intellect and will.” Therefore, whenever it happens, despite the constant teaching of this Apostolic See, that anyone is compelled to embrace the Catholic faith against his will,** Our sense of duty demands that We condemn the act. **

Let’s consider a moment the example of St. Paul in dealing with pagan Greeks.

Acts 17:22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

He built on the unknown, to bring them to the known. That is the essence of Nostra Aetate, that we reach those outside the faith, where they are, and strive to use that information to lift them to embrace the truths of our faith. And this can never be forced upon anyone with scare tactics of “you’re going to hell.” What a terrible way to show our loving God who wishes to touch their hearts!

 

[dmorgan]

Pope St. Clement I, A.D. 88-97: “Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. From this previously-existing and most true Church, it is very clear that these later heresies, and others which have come into being since then, are counterfeit and novel inventions.” (Epistle to the Corinthians)

Saint Ignatius of Antioch: “Do not deceive yourselves, he who adheres to the author of a schism will not possess the kingdom of God.” [Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3 (CH 158)].

Saint Cyprianus: “Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ (…) He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.” [De Cath. Eccl. Unitate, n 6 (CH 555)].

Council of Nicea (first ecumenical council, A.D. 325): “Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them otherwise than it should be, let him change it and order it, as seemeth to him fit; for he is the father of all, and they are his sons. And although the Archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power, just as he who holds the seat of Rome is the head and prince of all patriarchs; inasmuch as he is first, as was Peter, to whom power is given over all Christian princes, and over all their peoples, as he who is the Vicar of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole Christian Church, and whoever shall contradict this, is excommunicated by the synod.” (Arabic Canons, Canon XXXIX)

The Synod of Laodicea, A.D. 343-381: "Canon XXXIV. No Christian shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to those of the heretics, or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God. Let those who go after them be anathema."

**Saint Augustine and the Council of Cirta (412 A.D.): **“He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however laudable his conduct may otherwise seem, will never enjoy eternal life, and the anger of God remains on him by reason of the crime of which he is guilty in living separated from Christ.” [Epist. 141 (CH 158)].

Saint Gregory the Great: “The holy universal Church teaches that God cannot be truly adored except within its fold; she affirms that all those who are separated from her will not be saved.” [Moral. in Job. XIV,5 (CH 158)].

 

[dmorgan]

Continued

**Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): **“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies.” (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)

**Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): **“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Saint John Chrysostom, Doctor, (died A.D. 407): “We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith.” (De Capto Eutropia)

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchriridion Patristicum)

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. If slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

**Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590-604): **“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

**Saint Bede the Venerable O.S.B., Doctor, (died A.D. 735): **“He who will not willingly and humbly enter the gate of the Church will certainly be damned and enter the gate of hell whether he wants to or not.” (Sermon 16) “Without this confession, without this faith, no one can enter the kingdom of God.” (Sermon 16)

**Saint Peter Mavimenus (died A.D. 743): **“Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed.” (Roman Martyrology, February 20th) [Upon this profession of the faith, the infidel murdered him.]

Pope Sylvester II, A.D. 999-1003: “I profess that outside the Catholic Church, no one is saved.” (Profession of Faith made as Archbishop of Rheims, June 991; Letters of Gerbert, NY: Columbia University Press.) [This is the man that introduced Arabic numerals (the ones we use) into the West.]

**Pope Saint Leo IX, A.D. 1049-1054): **[regarding the eastern so-called “Orthodox” schismatics]: “If you live not in the body which is Christ, you are none of His. Whose, then, are you? You have been cut off and will wither, and like the branch pruned from the vine, you will burn in the fire - an end which may God’s goodness keep far from you.”

 

[dmorgan]

Continued

Pope Gregory XVI - “He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may otherwise seem, will not be saved.” “Perlatum Ad Nos,” PTC:186; “Summo Jugiter,” PTC:158

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum: “The Church…regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own…The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium…Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ…He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

Pope Pius IV “I promise, vow, and swear that, with God’s help, I shall most constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved.” : from the Bull “Injunctum Nobis,” DZ:1000

Pope Pius VIII “Remember this firm dogma of our religion: that outside the true Catholic faith no one can be saved.” - RECOLLECTIONS OF THE LAST FOUR POPES, Cardinal Nicholas Wiseman, London: 1858

Pope Pius IX “See to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion: the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation.” - Nostis et Nobiscum," December 8, 1849

Pope St. Pius X “Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation.” - “Supremi Apostolatus,” PTC:654; “Jucunda Sane,” PTC:668

Pope Pius XI “If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from it, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.” - Mortalium Animos," PTC:873

Pope Pius XII “No one can depart from the teaching of Catholic truth without loss of faith and salvation.” - Pius XII: “Ad Apostolorum Principis,” PTC:1536

Council of Trent - "Constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, without which no one can be saved. Tridentine Profession of Faith, DZ:1000

Vatican I “This true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold, I do promise and swear that I will most constantly keep and confess whole and inviolate with the help of God until the last breath of my life, and that I will take great care that it be held, taught, and preached by my inferiors and by those who are placed under my charge.” - Papal Oath

Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): “Outside of this communion - as outside the ark on Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never recieved the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having recieved it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.” (Cathechismi Latini et Germanici)

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi)

St. Francis of Assisi “And all of us humbly entreat and beseech everyone, all nations and all men in all the earth who are, and who shall be, that we may all of us persevere in the true faith: for otherwise no one can be saved.”

St. Louis Marie de Montfort “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.” -

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori “We must believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church; hence, they who are out of our Church, or they who are separated from it, cannot be saved.” :

 

[MarkThompson]

Dmorgan, next time you cut and paste all the content of a webpage (this one), please attribute it properly so that no one could mistake you for trying to pass it off as your own research. Just a tip.

 

[Genesis315]

Is no one else disturbed by the apparent “contradiction” between Nostra Aetate and the Council of Florence? Its an interesting point that needs to be addressed.

I addressed it in post #17 of this thread.

 

[Genesis315]

Dmorgan, next time you cut and paste all the content of a webpage (this one), please attribute it properly so that no one could mistake you for trying to pass it off as your own research. Just a tip.

And the same webpage has this on belonging to the Church by desire/longing including an implicit one:

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm

 

[pnewton]

Dmorgan, next time you cut and paste all the content of a webpage (this one), please attribute it properly so that no one could mistake you for trying to pass it off as your own research. Just a tip.

Just a tip and a rule here. You might want to refresh your memory of those. FYI - Megaposts of quotes well known to the Church at the time of Vatican II really do not do anything but take up cyberspace.