Vatican II

[AnneElliot]

In the same way, when we get nebby about others’ salvation who are outside the church and probe into things that are not our concern, I think we will hear the same rebuke from Our Lord.

Faith, trust, filial submission, and the simplicity of a child are qualities very dear to God. Those who continually demand proofs and verification or they will not believe, exhibit distrust and an unwillingness to follow the Lord as a loyal son. It is a very subtle insidious temptation.

Except we have the obligation to share the Faith with others. It’s our job to bring others to the Church.

Can we force them? No, of course not. But neither do we stand idly by and pretend (or falsely hope) that they might be okay outside the Church. We are the instruments of the Holy Spirit.

The fuller expression of the quote in my signature:
“Consequently, we have become sharers in this mission of the prophet Christ, and in virtue of that mission we together with him are serving divine truth in the Church. Being responsible for that truth also means loving it and seeking the most exact understanding of it, in order to bring it closer to ourselves and others in all its saving power, its splendour and its profundity joined with simplicity.” Pope John Paul II, Redemptor Hominis #19

 

[MarkThompson]

Except we have the obligation to share the Faith with others. It’s our job to bring others to the Church.

Can we force them? No, of course not. But neither do we stand idly by and pretend (or falsely hope) that they might be okay outside the Church. We are the instruments of the Holy Spirit.

The fuller expression of the quote in my signature:
“Consequently, we have become sharers in this mission of the prophet Christ, and in virtue of that mission we together with him are serving divine truth in the Church. Being responsible for that truth also means loving it and seeking the most exact understanding of it, in order to bring it closer to ourselves and others in all its saving power, its splendour and its profundity joined with simplicity.” Pope John Paul II, Redemptor Hominis #19

Right: we “ever must proclaim Christ ‘the way, the truth, and the life’ (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life.” – Nostra Aetate.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes. The danger is when we get all “sola scriptura” on old Church documents, and then try to determine whether new documents match the interpretations we’ve independently arrived at. We can call that a hermeneutic of distrust in the Church – the idea that we should be worried that, at any moment, the Church may go off the rails and contradict the truth (leaving, presumably, a tiny and unrecognized remnant of “old believers” as the “true Church”). Rather, we should proceed from a hermeneutic of trust, full of confidence that the Church that Christ ordained continues to do his work and speak his truths. With that approach, we realize that if it looks like there is some grave contradiction, the fault lies merely in our inability to comprehend the truth that there is no contradiction. This should be easy, since so few of us are professional theologians, but it never ceases to surprise me how many people read one document – or, rather, the Wikipedia page about it, or some recap on a dissenting website – and become convinced that the Church has fallen into error.

Amen.

 

[diggerdomer]

Nice response, Mark. From another post elsewhere on the forum:

I don’t know where this constant questioning of doctrine originates, except that it surfaces so frequently on this forum, and brings the heart into a distrust of authority. No doubt about it, that it is the cobra’s playground. It reminds me of St. Peter, who had his own mission from Jesus, yet boldy asked Our Lord in Jn. 21:21,

“Lord, what about him?” Jesus said to him, “What if I want him to remain until I come? What concern is it of yours? You follow me.”

In the same way, when we get nebby about others’ salvation who are outside the church and probe into things that are not our concern, I think we will hear the same rebuke from Our Lord.

Faith, trust, filial submission, and the simplicity of a child are qualities very dear to God. Those who continually demand proofs and verification or they will not believe, exhibit distrust and an unwillingness to follow the Lord as a loyal son. It is a very subtle insidious temptation.

Ps. 131: “LORD, my heart is not proud; nor are my eyes haughty. I do not busy myself with great matters, with things too sublime for me. Rather, I have stilled my soul, hushed it like a weaned child.”

I am wondering about this statement you quote:

We have been granted by God a teaching magisterium that cannot lead us into error in the areas of faith and morals.

I’m not sure this is completely accurate. It’s true that the Church is graced with the charism of infallibility, meaning, when the Church teaches infallibily she cannot err in matters of faith and morals. But I think the statement you quote is not saying exactly that…meaning…when the Church is not claiming to teach infallibly, and yet is teaching on a matter of faith or morals, the possibility of error exists.

 

[Ockham]

I’m not sure this is completely accurate. It’s true that the Church is graced with the charism of infallibility, meaning, when the Church teaches infallibily she cannot err in matters of faith and morals. But I think the statement you quote is not saying exactly that…meaning…when the Church is not claiming to teach infallibly, and yet is teaching on a matter of faith or morals, the possibility of error exists.

Except when it comes to CITH, right digger?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

She cannot err in faith and morals, because She is the standard for faith and morals.

It isn’t like there is some absolute standard beyond what the Church teaches, that we say she cannot stray from. She “defines” faith and morals so there can’t be any argument. Whether she “discerns” correctly is not at issue, IMO, for those who trust the Church.

Alan

 

[pnewton]

Except when it comes to CITH, right digger?

Note that he said, “…and yet is teaching on a matter of faith or morals.” In all disciplinary areas the issue of prudence is debatable.

 

[jam070406]

Note that he said, “…and yet is teaching on a matter of faith or morals.” In all disciplinary areas the issue of prudence is debatable.

Would it not be a matter of Faith that this exercise of prudence directly affects?

 

[pnewton]

Would it not be a matter of Faith that this exercise of prudence directly affects?

I think the most you could say is there is an indirect influence. Direct influence would mean that there is a deliberate meaning in the receiving communion that denies the presence of Christ. In any case, it is still not a matter of Faith, even if it does affect a matter of Faith.

 

[jam070406]

I think the most you could say is there is an indirect influence. Direct influence would mean that there is a deliberate meaning in the receiving communion that denies the presence of Christ. In any case, it is still not a matter of Faith, even if it does affect a matter of Faith.

Based upon the fact that the Faithful have been poorly cathecised for the past 40 or so years and there has been a major decline in the belief of the real presence, do you believe it is a prudent choice to continue to have a discipline that can have a negative affect on a matter of Faith?

 

[fhansen]

I wonder if Jesus counted people who were not of his group, as “saved” even though they might do all the good works?

What about the “good” criminal on the cross? Was he “saved” when Jesus said he’d be with Him in paradise?

Alan

Yes, and what ab out the good Samaritan?- a foreigner who ended up being the true neighbor.

 

[pnewton]

Based upon the fact that the Faithful have been poorly cathecised for the past 40 or so years and there has been a major decline in the belief of the real presence, do you believe it is a prudent choice to continue to have a discipline that can have a negative affect on a matter of Faith?

That is an entirely different question and too far afield from the topic for me to answer.

 

[CWBetts]

Based upon the fact that the Faithful have been poorly cathecised for the past 40 or so years and there has been a major decline in the belief of the real presence, do you believe it is a prudent choice to continue to have a discipline that can have a negative affect on a matter of Faith?

You are making an assumption that CITH has a negative effect on faith without providing any evidence

 

[jam070406]

You are making an assumption that CITH has a negative effect on faith without providing any evidence

You’re right, I’m sure CITH does wonders to bolster the belief in the real presence. Thanks for convincing me and showing me the light.

 

[CWBetts]

You’re right, I’m sure CITH does wonders to bolster the belief in the real presence. Thanks for convincing me and showing me the light.

It is up to you to provide the evidence. It is you who are making the charge. To simply assume without evidence is the logical fallacy of “begging the question”.

 

[jam070406]

It is up to you to provide the evidence. It is you who are making the charge. To simply assume without evidence is the logical fallacy of “begging the question”.

Evidence for what? The decline in belief of the real presence? Isn’t it evident enough?

 

[wisdomseeker]

the more we meet the needs of the people, the more the needs of the people will be.

everything seem to be based on the needs of the people. where is God in all this anyway?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

the more we meet the needs of the people, the more the needs of the people will be.

everything seem to be based on the needs of the people. where is God in all this anyway?

Please elaborate. Doesn’t God concern Himself with needs of people?

 

[CWBetts]

Evidence for what? The decline in belief of the real presence? Isn’t it evident enough?

The fact that belief in the real presence is in decline does not mean that CITH is to blame. That is a conclusion that completely ignores other factors.

 

[jam070406]

The fact that belief in the real presence is in decline does not mean that CITH is to blame. That is a conclusion that completely ignores other factors.

Well CW, if you go back and read my post I actually said poor catechesis was to blame. And I was questioning whether allowing CITH was a prudent decision in light of that fact. And based upon the statement by the Sec. of the Congregation Of Divine Worship and the example of the Pope, I would say I’m in good company to question a discipline that they have stated leads to lack of reverance in the Real Presence.