Vatican II

[Ockham]

I am new here…can you explain what you mean by saying Vatican II was called against the judgment of every Pope since VI? I don’t understand…most the Popes since Vatican I had no knowledge of Vatican II? Thanks.

It’s a deep subject but I’ll try to cram it into a nutshell.

Vatican I was interupted by some unruly protestors (militants). There were several popes inbetween V1 and V2 that could have reconvened the Council but decided it wasn’t prudent. Councils are usually called due to a pressing need after the pontiff surveys and studies. Pope John XXIII did neither, called V2 after three months in office for no apparent reason and said it was Divine Intervention. There were preparatory documents put together to base the agenda, yet they were thrown out immediately after the Council opened. The documents that came from the Council are ambiguous and for nearly forty years misinterpreted (under the guise of 'spirit of V2) to bring about the greatest wave of change the Church has ever seen. Leading indicators such as Mass attendance, seminary enrollment and belief in the Real Presence have all declined since V2 ended. Pope Benedict XVI and bishops like Chaput in Denver are being very tactful and sensitive in choosing their words such as ‘reform of the reform’ in effort to fix the damage.

Welcome aboard. Two years ago I was a cafeteria Catholic who went along with everyone else in my parish and received CITH from an EMHC. After finding sites like this and a TLM I’ve been on an exciting journey of learning and improving my Catholic way of life. The Church is the instrument of Truth, Christ’s institution and all you ever need once you discover what it truly means to be Catholic.

 

[Ockham]

I’m new here, but I was wondering what’s wrong with following what the Church teaches? Thanks.

The Church teaches COTT. It is the universal norm. CITH is approved by an indult, exception, and it’s history is one of disobedience and irreverence.

 

[pnewton]

I’m new here, but I was wondering what’s wrong with following what the Church teaches? Thanks.

Congratulations. You managed to find one of the major hotbeds of this forum.

Vince, there is nothing wrong with just following what the Church teaches. The simpliest and most humble course is usually the best. If if the Catholic Church makes some new rule which is imprudent and ill-advised because of the human component, we are always assured that within this Church we have a sure path to salvation an spiritual growth. Obedience and submission is an excellent default postion for any Christian.

 

[CWBetts]

Did Christ establish one church for the salvation of souls or not? Why did He give us the Sacraments if they are optional?

Again ,the Catholic Church is the normative path for salvation, however God is not bound by the Sacraments. Are you saying that He is? If so, you have crammed Him in a little box, and truthfully, this attitude is contrary to the teachings of the Church.

 

[CWBetts]

You are a perfect example of the CITH and ‘spirit of V2’ position. Modernists don’t care what anyone else thinks as their own agenda is their prime directive. Facts are avoided and debate clouded with rhetoric and false accusations. I pray for those you 'catechize".

Accepting Vatican II is not “modernism”. It is “faithful Catholicism”

 

[Ockham]

Accepting Vatican II is not “modernism”. It is “faithful Catholicism”

V2 didn’t call for CITH. Disobedient, prideful people with a modernist agenda did.

 

[Ockham]

Again ,the Catholic Church is the normative path for salvation, however God is not bound by the Sacraments. Are you saying that He is? If so, you have crammed Him in a little box, and truthfully, this attitude is contrary to the teachings of the Church.

So there is salvation outside of the Church?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Vatican I was interupted by some unruly protestors (militants). There were several popes inbetween V1 and V2 that could have reconvened the Council but decided it wasn’t prudent. Councils are usually called due to a pressing need after the pontiff surveys and studies. Pope John XXIII did neither, called V2 after three months in office for no apparent reason and said it was Divine Intervention. There were preparatory documents put together to base the agenda, yet they were thrown out immediately after the Council opened. The documents that came from the Council are ambiguous and for nearly forty years misinterpreted (under the guise of 'spirit of V2) to bring about the greatest wave of change the Church has ever seen. Leading indicators such as Mass attendance, seminary enrollment and belief in the Real Presence have all declined since V2 ended. Pope Benedict XVI and bishops like Chaput in Denver are being very tactful and sensitive in choosing their words such as ‘reform of the reform’ in effort to fix the damage.

Thank you for your summary. I’m actually new to this argument so I wondered what the gist of it was.

Leading indicators such as Mass attendance, seminary enrollment and belief in the Real Presence have all declined since V2 ended.

Do we have these documented and especially in easy-to-see graph format?

Do you think other factors contributed as well?

Alan

 

[Ockham]

Thank you for your summary. I’m actually new to this argument so I wondered what the gist of it was.

Do we have these documented and especially in easy-to-see graph format?

Do you think other factors contributed as well?

Alan

It probably wasn’t the best summary but I hope it’s serviceable at least.

I’ll post links to surveys tomorrow.

Of course there are other factors contributing to the decline in leading indicators. The ‘spirit of V2’ changes however did not produce the stated results and as our pontiff and other leading clergy have indicated a ‘reform of the reform’ is needed.

 

[Vince1022]

V2 didn’t call for CITH. Disobedient, prideful people with a modernist agenda did.

But doesn’t the Church approve it? Every parish I’ve been to, in the U.S., it’s fine to receive either in the hand or on the tongue. Isn’t that what the Church teaches?

 

[Vince1022]

It’s a deep subject but I’ll try to cram it into a nutshell.

Vatican I was interupted by some unruly protestors (militants). There were several popes inbetween V1 and V2 that could have reconvened the Council but decided it wasn’t prudent. Councils are usually called due to a pressing need after the pontiff surveys and studies. Pope John XXIII did neither, called V2 after three months in office for no apparent reason and said it was Divine Intervention. There were preparatory documents put together to base the agenda, yet they were thrown out immediately after the Council opened. The documents that came from the Council are ambiguous and for nearly forty years misinterpreted (under the guise of 'spirit of V2) to bring about the greatest wave of change the Church has ever seen. Leading indicators such as Mass attendance, seminary enrollment and belief in the Real Presence have all declined since V2 ended. Pope Benedict XVI and bishops like Chaput in Denver are being very tactful and sensitive in choosing their words such as ‘reform of the reform’ in effort to fix the damage.

Welcome aboard. Two years ago I was a cafeteria Catholic who went along with everyone else in my parish and received CITH from an EMHC. After finding sites like this and a TLM I’ve been on an exciting journey of learning and improving my Catholic way of life. The Church is the instrument of Truth, Christ’s institution and all you ever need once you discover what it truly means to be Catholic.

Thank you!

I am a bit confused about what you said about Vatican II. As I understand it, there are 21 ecumenical councils the Catholic Church teaches. Isn’t Vatican II one of them?

Thanks again.

 

[MarkThompson]

But doesn’t the Church approve it? Every parish I’ve been to, in the U.S., it’s fine to receive either in the hand or on the tongue. Isn’t that what the Church teaches?

Yes, it’s approved. Ockham hates it, though, so he frequently posts critical remarks about the practice.

Thank you!

I am a bit confused about what you said about Vatican II. As I understand it, there are 21 ecumenical councils the Catholic Church teaches. Isn’t Vatican II one of them?

Thanks again.

Yes, Vatican II was a completely valid ecumenical council of the Church.

 

[CWBetts]

So there is salvation outside of the Church?

No, there is no salvation outside the Church, but “the Church” is not ans narrow as you think it to be.

 

[Vince1022]

Yes, it’s approved. Ockham hates it, though, so he frequently posts critical remarks about the practice.

Yes, Vatican II was a completely valid ecumenical council of the Church.

Thanks! That’s what my pastor said, too.

 

[Vince1022]

No, there is no salvation outside the Church, but “the Church” is not ans narrow as you think it to be.

Thanks for sharing that. When I read the Catechism, that’s how I understood it too.

 

[joedecarlo]

Do the documents of Vatican II truly contradict all previous church teachings regarding salvation outside the Catholic Church?

These are infallible doctrines, Ex Cathedra, to which the church no longer adheres.
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absoutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” ( Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302).

“The most holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that is the unity of the eccesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

 

[pnewton]

These are infallible doctrines, Ex Cathedra, to which the church no longer adheres.

Yes, she does.

 

[crazzeto]

Could this acceptance have been only to avoid schism, though?

I seriously doubt that.

 

[Genesis315]

These are infallible doctrines, Ex Cathedra, to which the church no longer adheres.
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” ([Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absoutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” ( Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302).

“The most holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that is the unity of the eccesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

According to Pope John Paul II, we are to adhere to them:

“Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus”–“outside the Church there is no salvation”–stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351)."
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

It also makes sense to define the terms above. The reference to heretics, etc. assumes pertinacity. St. Augustine explains:

“But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.”
newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm
[/quote]

 

[edwest2]

Thank you for your summary. I’m actually new to this argument so I wondered what the gist of it was.

Do we have these documented and especially in easy-to-see graph format?

Do you think other factors contributed as well?

Alan

Other factors did contribute. I was there before and after Vatican II, and nothing done by Vatican II contributed to any of the declines mentioned. The so-called reforms of Vatican II were not authorized by Vatican II:

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1145

The real crisis in the Church occurred in 1968 when Pope Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae and Hippies threatened to burn the country down. The Pope warned Catholics about The Pill and what the consequences would be if his warning went unheeded - namely, the kind of hypersexualized society we live in today where male-female relationships are grossly distorted for too many. The Church did not open Adult Bookstores in the 1970s, the Church did not gradually sexualize TV and the movies or the rest of the media. The Church did not found the National Organization for Women - a profoundly anti-family organization.

Catholics, today, need to understand this.

God bless,
Ed