Vatican II

[ProVobis]

When the congregation assumes a posture that is not appropriate the Priests and Bishops certainly can control that, it’s their duty to correct inappropriate behavior. The Deacons in the parishes I attend don’t even assume the Orans position, reserving that for the celebrant as is proper but that doesn’t seem to phase the congregation one bit. In their defense, they have not been told it isn’t appropriate!

Depends on the nature. In one parish I used to attend, the congregation started praying along with the priest, “Through Him and with Him and in Him…” until the word got out to the bishop who was not in the least bit impressed. The practice was to immediately cease.

Makes one wonder what another bishop who was perhaps more lenient would have done.

 

[TimothyH]

When I attended my first post Vatican II Mass (my departure and return to the Church is fodder for another thread) I was in SoCal just North of San Diego. Mass was in some multi-purpose room with a sort-of elevated table (Mensa) as an altar. The “music” was provided by a guitar, fiddle and some form of drum/tambourine and had a distinctly '60’s flower-child feel to it, far from sacred. It took another 10+ years for me to meet an elderly Monseigneur who got me back on a solid Catholic regimen.

Thankfully the parishes I now attend have lost the hippie feel but still employ guitars and one even has a snare drum with cymbals, I suppose someone thinks it resembles the Timbrel of the OT! The most irritating aspect of all three churches is the fact they each possess an organ; one has an excellent 8 rank pipe organ yet they rarely use them preferring instead a piano! If this is the best “sacred” music I can expect I’d rather just have silence so I can meditate and pray.

When the congregation assumes a posture that is not appropriate the Priests and Bishops certainly can control that, it’s their duty to correct inappropriate behavior. The Deacons in the parishes I attend don’t even assume the Orans position, reserving that for the celebrant as is proper but that doesn’t seem to phase the congregation one bit. In their defense, they have not been told it isn’t appropriate!

You seem to have some bitterness. I hope you find God’s purpose in your struggle and that you find peace.

God wants you to learn something from all this. I hope you find it.

-Tim-

 

[edwest2]

None of the changes that occurred after Vatican II were even suggested by Vatican II. Recently, the Tabernacle, which was placed here or there in some Churches, has been returned to its rightful place.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/why-one-bishop-is-putting-tabernacles-back-in-the-center-of-churches-32754/

The deformations that occurred were noticed but dissidents existed within the Church who wanted to change things.

Ed

 

[OraLabora]

When I attended my first post Vatican II Mass (my departure and return to the Church is fodder for another thread) I was in SoCal just North of San Diego. Mass was in some multi-purpose room with a sort-of elevated table (Mensa) as an altar. The “music” was provided by a guitar, fiddle and some form of drum/tambourine and had a distinctly '60’s flower-child feel to it, far from sacred. It took another 10+ years for me to meet an elderly Monseigneur who got me back on a solid Catholic regimen.

Thankfully the parishes I now attend have lost the hippie feel but still employ guitars and one even has a snare drum with cymbals, I suppose someone thinks it resembles the Timbrel of the OT! The most irritating aspect of all three churches is the fact they each possess an organ; one has an excellent 8 rank pipe organ yet they rarely use them preferring instead a piano! If this is the best “sacred” music I can expect I’d rather just have silence so I can meditate and pray.

When the congregation assumes a posture that is not appropriate the Priests and Bishops certainly can control that, it’s their duty to correct inappropriate behavior. The Deacons in the parishes I attend don’t even assume the Orans position, reserving that for the celebrant as is proper but that doesn’t seem to phase the congregation one bit. In their defense, they have not been told it isn’t appropriate!

I took up going to Mass at a Benedictine monastery because of some outrageous liturgical and musical shenanigans in my part of the world. Among the worst was a priest that changed the words of the consecration to sing them like a little ditty, another who would compose his own prayers instead of reciting those in the Missal, and music that sounded more appropriate for a laundry soap commercial than sacred worship. This too was after a return to the Church after many years’ absence. I grew up in the transition years, in the '60s. Back then Mass became in the vernacular, but my parish still had a pretty good choir that they’d roll out for High Mass.

At the monastery I found the Ordinary Form Mass was consistent, liturgically correct other than the odd small human error here and there, and in Gregorian chant. That prompted me to join a Gregorian schola and we bring chant to a different parish of our mid-sized (pop. 155k) city, once a month, always in the OF (no licit EF Mass nearby).

While going to the monastery I discovered a wonderful spirituality and eventually became an oblate.

To my territorial parish’s credit they’ve flushed most of the abuses, though the music still could be better, but given that it is a small rural parish with limited resources I can hardly fault them for that, and the priest is a wonderful, holy man.

Interestingly many faithful attending Mass at the abbey church (packed on Sundays unless there’s a snowstorm…), do things like the orans position. I don’t. The monks don’t say anything, I think largely because it is their conventual Mass and their focus is their own community; they really don’t have authority over the laity attending Mass as the archbishop or parish priest would have.

As an amusing side note you can always tell when there’s a large contingent of Americans in the nave (the abbey is only a few miles from the US border): you hear kneelers come crashing down at the start of the EP. In French Canada the standard position is kneeling only for the consecration, standing for the rest of the EP (as is the universal norm in the Missal).

 

[RPRPsych]

None of the changes that occurred after Vatican II were even suggested by Vatican II. Recently, the Tabernacle, which was placed here or there in some Churches, has been returned to its rightful place.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/why-one-bishop-is-putting-tabernacles-back-in-the-center-of-churches-32754/

The deformations that occurred were noticed but dissidents existed within the Church who wanted to change things.

Ed

Absolutely true. The problem was with some elements in the Church who got carried away with the “spirit of the times”, but hid behind the excuse of the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Such elements still exist, though they are (thank God!) on the wane. If you think “hippie music” is an abomination, you haven’t lived until you’ve seen “inculturated”, hybrid Catholic / Hindu “Masses”.

 

[sirach2v4]

Vatican II, aside from anything else, was a spectacle and an on-going media event. So, there was reporting of arguing behind the scenes, perhaps even some justified examination of documents for sound-bite reporting, etc. So, there was quite a carnival atmosphere, in my opinion.

I was let down (in my early teen years) by the realization that what the Council did was to produce a bunch of documents. While I should have realized that along the way, I didn’t. So, I thought, what was the punchline of all that heightened expectation that I had lived through?

An associate pastor, who turned out to be a sex-abuser, taught my Catholic high senior religion class, including the sex education part of it. Many decades later I had a chance to ask him (after he had been outed) why we didn’t get exposed to the new stuff from Vatican II? He replied that that’s ALL that he was teaching us, what had come from the Council. But, that was me, it went over my head.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

When I attended my first post Vatican II Mass (my departure and return to the Church is fodder for another thread) I was in SoCal just North of San Diego. Mass was in some multi-purpose room with a sort-of elevated table (Mensa) as an altar. The “music” was provided by a guitar, fiddle and some form of drum/tambourine and had a distinctly '60’s flower-child feel to it, far from sacred. It took another 10+ years for me to meet an elderly Monseigneur who got me back on a solid Catholic regimen.

Thankfully the parishes I now attend have lost the hippie feel but still employ guitars and one even has a snare drum with cymbals, I suppose someone thinks it resembles the Timbrel of the OT! The most irritating aspect of all three churches is the fact they each possess an organ; one has an excellent 8 rank pipe organ yet they rarely use them preferring instead a piano! If this is the best “sacred” music I can expect I’d rather just have silence so I can meditate and pray.

When the congregation assumes a posture that is not appropriate the Priests and Bishops certainly can control that, it’s their duty to correct inappropriate behavior. The Deacons in the parishes I attend don’t even assume the Orans position, reserving that for the celebrant as is proper but that doesn’t seem to phase the congregation one bit. In their defense, they have not been told it isn’t appropriate!

Funny you say that because I felt the same thing the first time I attended an OF Mass. I first actually attended an EF Mass with a friend who asked me to go with her. It was right in town on Sundays at 4:00PM. I became a regular attendee after the first time, because it was so majestic. I was bitterly disappointed when they stopped doing the Tridentine Mass on Sundays, after the priest fell ill.

So I wandered into an OF Mass in a different church nearby my home one Sunday morning, and the difference was striking. Didn’t feel sacred at all. Since I was an early inquirer it almost made me rethink Orthodoxy again, because I had never seen anything similar to that in a Divine Liturgy.

 

[OraLabora]

The first time I attended an OF Mass after a 22 year absence from the Church, I felt… home at last!

I had no doubt I was in a Catholic church and in the Catholic Church. It was later that I developed an appreciation for beautiful liturgy. I will be honest and admit that I prefer the OF, and believe it can be every bit as beautiful as the EF, something I have witnessed at monasteries here and in Europe, and at the various parishes and the cathedral that our schola sings at. The parish I will sing at Saturday evening is a case in point. The building is modern and not so inspiring and has so-so acoustics, but Mass is packed with young families and it’s inspiring to see the future of the Church, and to sing for them the ancient patrimony of plainchant. It’s a big beautiful Church, warts and all.

There is something special about chanting a 10th century chant to children and young adults who are there because they want to be, not because it is an obligation, and especially gratifying when they later tell us how much they appreciated hearing this music that is otherwise so obscure to them, that previously they’d only heard on a recording.

 

[TimothyH]

Vatican II, aside from anything else, was a spectacle and an on-going media event. So, there was reporting of arguing behind the scenes, perhaps even some justified examination of documents for sound-bite reporting, etc. So, there was quite a carnival atmosphere, in my opinion.

I was let down (in my early teen years) by the realization that what the Council did was to produce a bunch of documents. While I should have realized that along the way, I didn’t. So, I thought, what was the punchline of all that heightened expectation that I had lived through?

An associate pastor, who turned out to be a sex-abuser, taught my Catholic high senior religion class, including the sex education part of it. Many decades later I had a chance to ask him (after he had been outed) why we didn’t get exposed to the new stuff from Vatican II? He replied that that’s ALL that he was teaching us, what had come from the Council. But, that was me, it went over my head.

Arguing behind the scenes is nothing new. This is how it is done at every council. That is how it was done at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

They don’t sit around meditating until the Holy Spirit gives them inspiration. They discuss and debate, sometimes very vocally and forcefully, quite similar to what we do here. It’s nothing new.

Every council produced documents and nothing more. The Council of Jerusalem produced a letter to the Christians in Antioch.

It’s all consistent with Church practice for 2000 years my friend.

-Tim-

 

[LaetenturCaeli]

Didn’t feel sacred at all. Since I was an early inquirer it almost made me rethink Orthodoxy again, because I had never seen anything similar to that in a Divine Liturgy.

I can sympathize with this, I really can.

But I wonder how much “not feeling sacred” is down to our own attitudes.

IMO, there can be a point at which our own aesthetic sensibilities get mistaken for an objectively “correct” and “proper” way of worshiping God, almost as if He won’t settle for certain externals that are of a lower quality than our particular tastes demand.

I will agree that beautiful contexts make it easier to raise one’s heart to God.

But I think it’s wise to look into myself to determine whether what I really want is to worship God through a beautiful Mass, or if I want to merely use God’s awesomeness as an excuse to indulge in certain aesthetic pleasures, or if it’s a combination of both. Maybe the bells and smells are really more for me than they are for God.

This is a sincere question for me, and I don’t know if it applies to others. But it does apply to me.

 

[OraLabora]

I can sympathize with this, I really can.

But I wonder how much “not feeling sacred” is down to our own attitudes.

IMO, there can be a point at which our own aesthetic sensibilities get mistaken for an objectively “correct” and “proper” way of worshiping God, almost as if He won’t settle for certain externals that are of a lower quality than our particular tastes demand.

I will agree that beautiful contexts make it easier to raise one’s heart to God.

But I think it’s wise to look into myself to determine whether what I really want is to worship God through a beautiful Mass, or if I want to merely use God’s awesomeness as an excuse to indulge in certain aesthetic pleasures, or if it’s a combination of both. Maybe the bells and smells are really more for me than they are for God.

This is a sincere question for me, and I don’t know if it applies to others. But it does apply to me.

Excellent post, and yes I do also wrestle with this very issue. I found some solace in quiet, spoken weekday Masses.

Frankly in this day and age I suspect God is thrilled that we simply show up at His house every Sunday, and prefers a weak, wavering faith to no faith at all.

That said, I will always love Gregorian chant

 

[ProVobis]

At one time and in certain places the hurdy-gurdy was considered a sacred form of music in the Church. Things change. Revealed truth does not.

The Bishops, Pope and even individual priests can’t control every posture and action of every individual in the Church.

I see the Church moving back to a more pre-scholastic church, a more monastic Church.

Maybe but I would watch what young people follow, if they go to church at all.

 

[edwest2]

The young need to be taught. That’s all.

Ed

 

[TimothyH]

The young need to be taught. That’s all.

Ed

Paul wrote to Timothy

Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. (1 Timothy 4:12)

The Rule of St. Benedict says that the young should be given a chance to offer their opinions and suggestions and should not be ignored just because of their age.

St. John the Evangelist was perhaps the youngest Apostle, yet the best friend of Jesus and protector of Our Lady.

Given a chance, I think many young people will rise to the occasion. We can’t treat them like teenagers though.

-Tim-

 

[kdbueno]

Vatican approves that you understand intelligence according to God. Not according to a heretical theory.

 

[ProVobis]

The young need to be taught. That’s all.

Actually they need to learn. Big difference.

 

[otjm]

Vatican approves that you understand intelligence according to God. Not according to a heretical theory.

Sorry, but that has what to do with what? Could you be more explicit?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I can sympathize with this, I really can.

But I wonder how much “not feeling sacred” is down to our own attitudes.

IMO, there can be a point at which our own aesthetic sensibilities get mistaken for an objectively “correct” and “proper” way of worshiping God, almost as if He won’t settle for certain externals that are of a lower quality than our particular tastes demand.

I will agree that beautiful contexts make it easier to raise one’s heart to God.

But I think it’s wise to look into myself to determine whether what I really want is to worship God through a beautiful Mass, or if I want to merely use God’s awesomeness as an excuse to indulge in certain aesthetic pleasures, or if it’s a combination of both. Maybe the bells and smells are really more for me than they are for God.

This is a sincere question for me, and I don’t know if it applies to others. But it does apply to me.

I think I can answer this question for you, it’s going to probably apply uniquely to me, so bear with me.

I grew up in Pentecostalism, and attended various Evangelical churches all my life. Both my parents left Catholicism for Evangelicalism shortly before their marriage.

The services are generally divided into three sets (I swear this has a relevance to your questions): worship and praise (where songs and hymns are played and sung), announcements, and a sermon from the pastor. Monthly we would have Holy Communion (if we were lucky). All in all, the people are nice, and you can form a good solid foundation of Christian faith, even if it is incomplete. However, I became gradually more dissatisfied with the church because the emphasis began to be placed on Jesus being your best friend as opposed to your God that you must serve, on a rock band sort of worship service, and become “appealing” to young people (which I am, technically, since I’m 25). The final straw came when one year they cancelled the Christmas Vigil for a reason I don’t even remember, and a friend of mine took me to her Lutheran service. Must be the same thing, right? We’re all Protestants, after all. But there was deep reverence that was missing in all the churches I’ve ever attended before, a love and defense for Holy Communion, and a belief in lex orendi, lex credendi. I never looked back to Evangelicalism after that, and that’s what eventually drew me to Catholicism.

What’s the point? The point is that what drew me to Catholicism was a deep reverence in Christ that I found in the Tridentine Latin Mass (originally). The way the people and the priest genuflected and prayed with such humility, such reverence, it deeply touched me. And this was increased by the beautiful Gregorian chant and hymns that they used. The wording in them is magnificent, holy, beautiful. And I’m not trying to dismiss the validity of the OF Mass or that people don’t get anything out of it. However, that Sunday when I went to that Mass that seemed bland, I felt like I was back in an Evangelical church aside a couple of rubrics. I don’t mean to be rude, but that’s what I felt.

Recently I was at a friend’s funeral that was celebrated in the OF, the priest introduced “This is the air I breathe” as one of the hymn - which is beautiful, don’t get me wrong - but was one of those very songs I remember playing in Evangelical churches growing up. To me that doesn’t compare to the *Dies Irae *and the In Paradisum. There is also a deep theological message in these chants that are very moving, and much deeper and thoughtful than “This is the air I breathe.” I think that aesthetics can have a very important place in worship. It helps bring an attitude and a mentality of worship.

 

[OraLabora]

To me that doesn’t compare to the *Dies Irae *and the In Paradisum. There is also a deep theological message in these chants that are very moving, and much deeper and thoughtful than “This is the air I breathe.” I think that aesthetics can have a very important place in worship. It helps bring an attitude and a mentality of worship.

Most Gregorian chant has a deep theological message because most Gregorian chant happens to be Bible and Psalm verses. Dies Irae, a sequence, and In Paradisum, an antiphon are among the exceptions; not to day that they don’t have deep theological meaning although Dies Irae is no longer used at the Requiem Mass but is now the hymn for the 34th week of Ordinary Time in the Liturgy of the Hours.

The general rule for hymns of the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours is that they are not taken from scripture but were in general intended to combat heresy and are thus mini-theology lessons. Except that Pope Urban VIII in trying to make them into classical Latin more or less messed them up. It was Vatican II that restored the ancient texts of the hymns.

Of course some did try to use the hymns to introduce heresy but fortunately those texts have long been flushed out.

I agree though, that the aesthetics of liturgy is very important. The problem though is that aesthetic qualities often lie in the eye/ear of the beholder, and while I love chant, some hate it and prefer polyphony or even (gasp!) modern hymns. Modern hymns don’t necessary have to be bad just because they are modern!

 

[ProVobis]

The first time I attended an OF Mass after a 22 year absence from the Church, I felt… home at last!

I had no doubt I was in a Catholic church and in the Catholic Church. It was later that I developed an appreciation for beautiful liturgy. I will be honest and admit that I prefer the OF, and believe it can be every bit as beautiful as the EF, something I have witnessed at monasteries here and in Europe, and at the various parishes and the cathedral that our schola sings at. The parish I will sing at Saturday evening is a case in point. The building is modern and not so inspiring and has so-so acoustics, but Mass is packed with young families and it’s inspiring to see the future of the Church, and to sing for them the ancient patrimony of plainchant. It’s a big beautiful Church, warts and all.

There is something special about chanting a 10th century chant to children and young adults who are there because they want to be, not because it is an obligation, and especially gratifying when they later tell us how much they appreciated hearing this music that is otherwise so obscure to them, that previously they’d only heard on a recording.

Ora, it seems to me after reading your posts, that the OF was designed so that it could be customized to culture, to parish, to diocese, etc. Multiple EP’s are offered, and there are basically no real limits to the type of music et alia that liturgical committees and such can plan. Given this scenario, what’s there not to like about the OF? Unless of course, one can’t find one that’s in his language and/or comfort level.

The EF has no such variations. One language, one Canon, Latin chant, ad orientem, and some vernacular. Very limited in options but many folks like that too.