Vatican II

[JKirkLVNV]

One did indeed teach error. We teach best, in some ways, by example.

What error was presented to the whole Church as dogmatic teaching?

 

[AlexV]

You keep changing the game. First it was “presenting truth”. Then it was “teaching”. Now it’s “dogmatic teaching.”

Amusing.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You keep changing the game. First it was “presenting truth”. Then it was “teaching”. Now it’s “dogmatic teaching.”

Amusing.

No, Alex, if I were playing a game, I’d go find someone whose company I enjoy. Say what you plainly mean.

 

[bear06]

One did indeed teach error. We teach best, in some ways, by example.

Oh brother. A Pope yells at someone after a bowling ball drops on his toe and all of us can say that he was wronger than wrong and we should disbelieve in all of his teachings and point out to everyone repeatedly how wrong he was and well, he must be a modernist to boot.

 

[gorman64]

Oh brother. A Pope yells at someone after a bowling ball drops on his toe and all of us can say that he was wronger than wrong and we should disbelieve in all of his teachings and point out to everyone repeatedly how wrong he was and well, he must be a modernist to boot.

Dear Bear06:

If I may ask, what books have you read on the Church’s infallibility and papal infallibility?

I am not speaking of laymen writing on the internet…what actual authoritative books are you familiar with in these areas of Church teaching?

Yours in Christ,

Gorman

 

[gorman64]

Ecumenism is a policy. It’s not a teaching. Religious Liberty can be understood as a policy, not a teaching. In fact, the only way Vatican II understands it is as a policy. Collegiality is a policy, not a teaching.

Dear GerardP:

I don’t think the Church can issue a “policy” that has within it a doctrinal error. This contradicts the infallibility of Her ordinary magisterium which cannot give doctrinal error in any form…an error in practical judgment is quite possible…but not in the doctrinal component. She can propose nothing that is at odds with sound belief and good morals.

The modernist ecumenism is at odds with sound belief…is it not?

Yours in Christ,

Gorman

P.S.
Isn’t this false ecumenism taught in JPII’s encyclicals…in actions…and in the dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II?

I know it’s in the “official catechism”, the CCC.

 

[bear06]

Dear Bear06:

If I may ask, what books have you read on the Church’s infallibility and papal infallibility?

I am not speaking of laymen writing on the internet…what actual authoritative books are you familiar with in these areas of Church teaching?

Yours in Christ,

Gorman

Gorman, if you’ll notice not one of the quotes I gave you was from a laymen. Neither are the documents of Vatican I or Vatican II. I doubt I’ve ever read a book entirely devoted to the subject. I’ve only read books that cover the subject and articles that address it (from laymen, canonists and the clergy). So what’s the point?

 

[gorman64]

No, but you are intrepreting first sources. Have you ever read a dogmatic theology manual that explains what these first sources actually mean? The manuals are written by approved theologians of considerable weight…they are correct and they all say the same things with respect to the infallibility of the Church and the Pope.

I’ve seen many quite intelligent people misread Vatican I very badly.

 

[bear06]

No, but you are intrepreting first sources. Have you ever read a dogmatic theology manual that explains what these first sources actually mean? The manuals are written by approved theologians of considerable weight…they are correct and they all say the same things with respect to the infallibility of the Church and the Pope.

I’ve seen many quite intelligent people misread Vatican I very badly.

I’m interpreting Cardinal Ratzinger’s quotes? How do you figure?

 

[gorman64]

I’m interpreting Cardinal Ratzinger’s quotes? How do you figure?

Ratzinger is a modernist. His legitimacy is what is in question…you can’t quote him as a source. I am saying what he says is in conflict with orthodox pre-V2 theology.

I am asking you what dogmatic theology manuals you have read? Ratzinger is not a dogmatic theology manual.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Ratzinger is a modernist. His legitimacy is what is in question…you can’t quote him as a source. I am saying what he says is in conflict with orthodox pre-V2 theology.

I am asking you what dogmatic theology manuals you have read? Ratzinger is not a dogmatic theology manual.

Ratzinger a modernist?

Now many people on these forums find my views radical and extremist.

Some people even find my profile offensive…but it acurately describes my personal beliefs so I wont change it.

Im a traditionalist. I used to be an SSPXer…I still support them ferverently although my allegiance is now with the FSSP.

I go to confession at an SSPX Church sometimes…and I refuse to believe that their sacraments of matrimony and penance are invalid.

Naturally that puts me somewhere in the middle of Traditionalist and Radical tradtionalist.

However, I firmly believe Pope Benedict is the best Pope we’ve had since Pius XII.

I personally dont like Paul VI- John Paul II Pontiffs…but I LOVE Pope Benedict.

I have all his theological writings (well nearly) in my personal library. And I adore just about every word, puff of breath, and invisible molecules of spittle that comes out of his learned mouth.

Pope Benedict XVI is NOT a Modernist.

I dont know if your a sede, but even if you were…it makes no sense to accuse him of heresy.

Since he is after all one of the last beacons of traditional Catholicism in the conciliar Church.

Dont give the Trads a bad name man.

 

[bear06]

Ratzinger is a modernist. His legitimacy is what is in question…you can’t quote him as a source. I am saying what he says is in conflict with orthodox pre-V2 theology.

I am asking you what dogmatic theology manuals you have read? Ratzinger is not a dogmatic theology manual.

Dear Gorman, one can read all of the theology manuals that they please and yet still be wrong. It’s quite clear where you stand on the issue and I might remind you that it’s Pope Benedict XVI and you’ve just accused him of heresy. Congratulations.

 

[bear06]

Dont give the Trads a bad name man.

Don’t worry Missa, I wouldn’t lump you and he in the same boat.

I am curious as to his journey to where he is now.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Dear Gorman, one can read all of the theology manuals that they please and yet still be wrong. It’s quite clear where you stand on the issue and I might remind you that it’s Pope Benedict XVI and you’ve just accused him of heresy. Congratulations.

Now I know we dont get along to well during debates. But I feel your pain here.

But rest assured the “Joseph Ratzinger is a modernist” group of traditionalists are very very few in numbers.

The FSSP are trying to handle the crazy extremists who say that the Popes are heretical…but we just run out of room to bury the bodies every once in a while.

Rest assured us mainstream Trads are working on it though.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Now I know we dont get along to well during debates. But I feel your pain here.

But rest assured the “Joseph Ratzinger is a modernist” group of traditionalists are very very few in numbers.

The FSSP are trying to handle the crazy extremists who say that the Popes are heretical…but we just run out of room to bury the bodies every once in a while.

Rest assured us mainstream Trads are working on it though.

Missa

I sincerely hope you would do your best to handle these extreme Joseph Ratzinger-is-a-heretic traditionalist types. They are proving to be a liability for traditionalism as a whole by inciting divisions and dissension among Catholics where we could least afford it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dear Gorman, one can read all of the theology manuals that they please and yet still be wrong. It’s quite clear where you stand on the issue and I might remind you that it’s Pope Benedict XVI and you’ve just accused him of heresy. Congratulations.

I’m fairly certain that Gorman would dispute the “Pope” bit.

 

[bear06]

Now I know we dont get along to well during debates. But I feel your pain here.

Hey, in my family we can debate until the cows come home but when it’s time for dinner, we’re united.

But rest assured the “Joseph Ratzinger is a modernist” group of traditionalists are very very few in numbers.

Rest assured that I don’t paint everyone with the same brush. I have many traditionalist friends of varying beliefs.

 

[gorman64]

Since he is after all one of the last beacons of traditional Catholicism in the conciliar Church.

The conciliar Church? What you are saying is that the Conciliar Church *has been emptied of catholicism *…and Ratzinger is it’s last hope.

Is it the Catholic Church?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Ratzinger is a modernist. His legitimacy is what is in question…you can’t quote him as a source. I am saying what he says is in conflict with orthodox pre-V2 theology.

I am asking you what dogmatic theology manuals you have read? Ratzinger is not a dogmatic theology manual.

there’s no such thing as pre-vatican ii theology since all declarations of vatican ii must be interpreted in the context of the previous 20 ecumenical councils.

all faithful Catholics must assent to the constitutions promulgated by the second vatican council and the Holy See notwithstanding Lumen Gentium of which i own a copy published by pauline books & media.

buy it and read it (will cost you $5 or so), or get it from vatican.va.

 

[gorman64]

there’s no such thing as pre-vatican ii theology since all declarations of vatican ii must be interpreted in the context of the previous 20 ecumenical councils.

all faithful Catholics must assent to the constitutions promulgated by the second vatican council and the Holy See notwithstanding Lumen Gentium of which i own a copy published by pauline books & media.

buy it and read it (will cost you $5 or so), or get it from vatican.va.

There is a new theology…and it is in conflict in many areas with the dogmatic theology manuals written prior to V2.

I have read Lumen Gentium. Do you wish to discuss it?

Does it follow as well that all previous councils must be understood in the light of V2?