Vatican II

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Does it follow as well that all previous councils must be understood in the light of V2?
“in light of v2”? show me, in context, one thing the second vatican council declared you disagree with, and explain to me why it changed the church’s position of old.

and this doesn’t mean traditions “small t” which can be changed… it means Tradition… as in the deposit of faith, as in things all Catholics must assent to.
 
“in light of v2”? show me, in context, one thing the second vatican council declared you disagree with, and explain to me why it changed the church’s position of old.
Good luck getting specifics. I usually get “go search the document and you’ll see.”
 
Good luck getting specifics. I usually get “go search the document and you’ll see.”
👍 i’m subscribed to this thread so i don’t care if it takes weeks, i’ll get an update. i can wait, and i’m sure i’ll be waiting a while. 😉

i just wish i had the confidence of some of these posters to totally throw out an entire ecumenical council and risk damnation and hellfire if my side was wrong…

maybe, if we searched hard enough, we’d find that it’s not only just the second vatican council that was wrong… but 14… like the Orthodox.
 
The conciliar Church? What you are saying is that the Conciliar Church *has been emptied of catholicism *…and Ratzinger is it’s last hope.

Is it the Catholic Church?
If you believe that the Vatican Council was harmful to the faith…which is what I believe. Then you probably call it the Concilliar Church, (that is, assuming you recognize the Conciliar Church as the Catholic Church)

But here your putting words into my mouth.

The Concilliar Church is not emptied of Catholicism. Non-Catholic theology and practices are invading our parishes and choking Catholicism…but its going to far to say that the Church has been emptied of it.

And the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ and Rome’s new ecumenism is only speeding the process, thats true. But again, you cant say the Pope is a heretic and the Church is no longer Catholic without blaspheming.

Thats my stance on it. And yes, I believe Pope Benedict XVI is a beacon of Tradition in the Conciliar Church.

He is not a heretic, nor were any of his predessecors.
 
I believe he asked if you agreed or disagree with the quote by Saint Catherine.
And appearantly asking such a quesiton is considered uncharitable. I’ll let the moderators make the call on that one.
 
I think there is a double and contradicting acting of the Catholics pro II Vatican Council (IIVC), facing the non catholics are very kind and open but facing Catholics pro Tradition are very severe.
Think what you like, however, leaving out of consideration the internal disposition of soul, of which God alone is the judge, I assert it is objectively necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum, 1302). Those who disagree have some soul searching to do, no matter what they call themselves.

Moreoever, it is traditional Catholicism to affirm that “there is no holiness in dissention with the Pope.” (St. Pius X). If this offends you then perhaps you should prayerfully reflect upon the allocution of St. Pius X and decide whether or not you agree with him.
 
… If you stray from dogma, your eternal soul is in danger. You must believe dogma.
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger affirmed Vatican II is binding (Address to the Bishops of Chile, 1988), your contrary opinion on the matter notwithstanding.

With regard to your implication that only dogma is binding, I disagree.

On the contrary, dogma (de fide) and doctrine (sententia certa) of the Catholic magisterium, and universal canon law are all binding.

The Code of Canon Law states:
Universal laws are binding everywhere on all those for whom they were enacted. (can. 12.1)
… a **religious submission of ** intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine. (can. 752)
Blessed Pius IX described that Catholics are bound to the dogma, doctrine, discipline and governance of the Roman Pontiff:
Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power
over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world…This is the teaching of the Catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation. [Vatican I, 18 July 1870)

[/quote]
St. Pius X described the binding nature of decrees apart from dogmatic decrees…
"all are bound in conscience to submit
to the decisions of the Biblical Commission as to decrees which appertain to doctrine" Praestantia Scripturae, 18 November, 1907]
** Pius XII**, Humani Generis (1950), likewise affirmed the binding nature of the **ordinary teaching authority **(as distinct from the Extraordinary or Solemn authority) of the Roman Pontiff:
Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent
, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For ***these matters are taught with the *ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me” [Lk 10:16]

continued…
 
**Dogma **are truths set forth by the Church as divinely revealed which are to be believed with firm faith (de fide credenda). In a broader sense, dogma also pertains to all those teachings belonging to the dogmatic or moral area, which are necessary for faithfully keeping and expounding the deposit of faith, even if they have not been proposed by the Magisterium of the Church as formally revealed, and are to be firmly accepted and held (de fide tenenda). The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith teaches that there is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent of faith which is owed to de fide credenda and de fide tenenda.

Yet, there is also another category of ordinary magisterial teaching which does not require the “assent of faith” but does require “religious assent of intellect and will” (religiosum obsequium intellectus et voluntatis) [cf. canon 751, Code of Canon Laws]

According to the Doctrinal Commentary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, June 29, 1998, there exists another category of teaching which is described as…
*…all those teachings * on faith and morals - presented as true or at least as sure *[ie. sententia certa]**, even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgment or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect. Cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 25; Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Instruction Donum Veritatis, 23: AAS 82 (1990), 1559-1560.] They are set forth in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of revelation, or to recall the conformity of a teaching with the truths of faith, or lastly to warn against ideas incompatible with these truths or against dangerous opinions that can lead to error.
Code:
 A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be     qualified as *erroneous* or, in the case of teachings of the prudential order, as *rash*     or *dangerous* and therefore "tuto doceri non potest". Cf. CIC, cann. 752, 1371; CCEO, cann. 599, 1436 § 2.]
[Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Doctrinal Commentary on *Professio Fidei, source]
Those who willfully disobey canon 752 commit an ecclesiastical crime which is subject to penalty under canon 1371.

To cling to the notion that only dogma is binding is absurd. Such has never been the teaching of traditional Catholicism.
 
… Many clergyman and religious immediately dissented with Humanae Vitae in 1968. Why? They were trained pre-Vatican II weren’t they? They should havebeen very much aware of the Casti Connubii (1930) and the constant teaching on the matter since apostolic times, no?
If I remember correctly, Pope Paul VI had issued a 1967 Progressio Populorum encyclical which encouraged those who favored using the then newly-introduced birth control pills.The word was passed on to just about every bishop and priest in the world. Thus the later Humanae Vitae was a huge setback for them and their agenda.
 
Seems to who? Paul VI? No. John Paul I? No. John Paul II? No. Benedict XVI? No.

I believe you have a terribly flawed understanding of Catholic dogmatic, doctrine, and what is and is not binding upon all Catholcis.

Which POPE ever declared that the Vatican II decrees, constitutions and declarations were not in accord with Scripture and the immutable definitive Tradition of the Catholic Church? What POPE ever declared that the Vatican II decrees, constitutions and declarations were not binding? Canon law declares they are binding!

The only reason one may dissent with Vatican II is if Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI were not not valid popes, which would necessarily mean that all the bishops throughout the world for the past frew decades since Vatican II were not really in union with the Roman Pontiff, as they too were promulgating the teachings of a “robber council” which was never ratified by a valid pope. That’s it. That’s the only way Vatican II could NOT be binding upon all Catholics. Any honest student of Catholic teaching could draw no other conclusion. Ain’t that right, gorman64?

What do you think “pastoral” means? You seem to think it means, “just a suggestion…not binding.” It doesn’t, not according to Paul VI who made Vatican II BINDING although it was pastoral. Not according to all the popes since Vatican II.

For example, the Ecumenical Council of Florence in the 15th cent. declared the following, but did not declare it definitively, which means it was taught pastorally…yet it was indeed binding

Thus, as every canonist would tell you, the canon of Scripture was universally binding by virtue of this non-definitive (ie. pastoral) declaration. Every ecumenical council is marked by pastoral teachings. They never meant that they were to be discared at will. They are authentic exercises of magisterium once they have been ratified by the Roman Pontiff. So, by virture of true obedience and subordination to the Roman Pontiff, which is necessary for salvation (cf. Unam Sanctum), what is taught even pastorally by the Roman Pontiff as sententia certa is binding, to include submission to the disciplinary norms and governing instructions of the Roman Pontiff.

“Pastoral” means “by virtue of the authority of the Magisterium” which although differs in kind from teachings promulgated definitively by virue of the authority of the Solemn Magisterium, it is still authentic teachings of the magisterium which requires what pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II described as RELIGIOSUM OBSEQUIUM. No honest study of religiosum obsequium could conclude that it is compatible with dissent.

Catholics have always been bound to submit to their pastors, even when thought they were not teaching infallibly with solemn definitions (cf. Heb 13:17). When they teach with the authority of their Ordinary Magisterium, we owe our religious assent. Pre-Vatican II popes such as Pius XII make this quite clear.

Consequently, your interpretation of Paul VI’s quotes are absurd.
So how do you explain the legality of the ALL-vernacular Mass when the Vatican II documents SPECIFICALLY stated that Latin should be retained in the liturgy?
 
So how do you explain the legality of the ALL-vernacular Mass when the Vatican II documents SPECIFICALLY stated that Latin should be retained in the liturgy?
:eek:

Are you not aware that the first liturgy in Rome was in Greek? When the liturgy was translated from Greek TO Latin it became vernacular. The Roman Missal was also translated into the vernacular Croat for the Croations and some other Slavic lands and the Eastern Catholic Churches always had vernacular liturgies. Of course Latin should be retained in the Liturgies, and no one is disputing that. There are Latin versions of the Novus Ordo, as Latin is the unifying language of the Western Church.
 
So how do you explain the legality of the ALL-vernacular Mass when the Vatican II documents SPECIFICALLY stated that Latin should be retained in the liturgy?
If you look into the history of it, HH Pope Paul VI, of happy memory, permitted bishops’ conferences to determine the extent to which the vernacular of their area could be used in the Mass. Each conferences decision and the translations had to be confirmed or approved by the Holy See. So a completely vernacular Mass is perfectly legitimate in the eyes of the Holy See. A pope is not bound by a council on a matter of discipline.
 
If I remember correctly, Pope Paul VI had issued a 1967 Progressio Populorum encyclical which encouraged those who favored using the then newly-introduced birth control pills.The word was passed on to just about every bishop and priest in the world. Thus the later Humanae Vitae was a huge setback for them and their agenda.
Please provide a quote from the document showing this.
 
To what extent are Catholics obliged to accept the teaching of Vatican II? There are so many different opinions among Traditionalists. What are you required to believe? Thank you for your answers.
Has anyone ever made a list of “the teachings of Vatican II” that one is supposed to accept?
 
If I remember correctly, Pope Paul VI had issued a 1967 Progressio Populorum encyclical which encouraged those who favored using the then newly-introduced birth control pills.The word was passed on to just about every bishop and priest in the world. Thus the later Humanae Vitae was a huge setback for them and their agenda.
Progressio Populorum encouraged responsible parenthood. It did not encourage use of the birth control pill. That might have been the erroneous “wishful thinking” of many of the ignorant Catholics who read the “sound bites” in the newspapers about this encyclical, but that false understanding had little to do with what was said by Paul VI in the the encyclical itself.

According to the 1959 moral theology textbook by John C. Ford, S.J., and Gerard Kelly, S.J., Contemporary Moral Theology Vol. 1: “It is hardly conceivable that the papal teaching on such things as divorce, contraception, the direct killing of the innocent…is anything short of infallible” (p.22).

According to John T. Noonan’s 1965 publication, *Contraception - A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theolgians and Canonists: *"***Never had it been admitted by a Catholic theologian that complete sexual intercourse might be had in which by deliberation, procreation was excluded." ***(*p.*438).

According to Felix Cappelo, S.J.'s 1933 and 1961 edition of *De Matrimonio, *n. 816, speaking of the teaching of Casti Connubii on the immorality of contraception, he says, “***These very solemn words,utterin ‘in signum legationis divinae,’ obviously are an expression of infallible teaching authority, that is, a definition *ex cathedra.

According to Arthur Vermeersch, S.J., in his 1931 commentary on Casti Connubii, he says that “the pope wished to put the stamp of his own infallible teaching authority on the traditional teaching of the Church” [cited by Ford, Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol II (1964), *p.263-264]

According to A. Piscetta, S.S., and A Gennaro, S.S., in their seventh volume of Elementa theologia moralis published in 1944, they agree with Vermeersch above on the infallible teaching of Casti Connubii on the matter.

According to Francis Ter Haar, C.SS.R., in his 1939 text Casus conscientiae, II. De praecipuis hujus aetatis vitiis eorumque remediis, n. 136, speaking of the passage against contraception in Casti Connubii, ""this passage of the encyclical, contains a definition by the Roman Pontiff speaking ‘ex cathedra’.

According to Andre’ Snoeck, S.J., in his article"Fecondation inhibee et morale catholique," *Nouvelle revue theologique *75 (1953), 690-702, at p. 700: “the common opinion in the Church judges that we are here ocnfronted with an irrevocable condemnation of conjugal onanism.”

According to John Ford, S.J. and Gerard Kelly, S.J., in their text Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol II - Marriage Questions, published in 1964, “in condemning contraception as intrinsically and gravely immoral, Pius XI was clearly and solemnly declaring at ruth already infallibly tuaght by the universal Church… the main point is to insist on the substantial immutability of the Catholic doctrine on contraception**.” (p.271)

Consequently, according to Catholic moral theology texts of the 30s, 40s, 50s and early 60s, Casti Connubii’s teaching against contraception was unanimously considered inreformable teaching of the Church. If there were some “wishful thinkers” that thought this immutable teaching could be changed by Paul VI, either they clung to an ignorant view or a professed a dishonest view of Catholic moral theology.
 
So how do you explain the legality of the ALL-vernacular Mass when the Vatican II documents SPECIFICALLY stated that Latin should be retained in the liturgy?
Are you aware that Paul V (1605-1621) allowed the vernacular Mass in China? :eek:

Paul VI, by ratifying Vatican II, allowed some vernacular. Paul VI in 1975 allowed all vernacular. He’s the pope, the supreme legislator of the Church. Like Paul V, he can allow vernacular Mass in accordance with his plenary authority to govern the Church, distinct from the authority of a general council.

On December 4, 1963, Pope Paul VI promulgated Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. The document commands that “the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.” It furthermore adds:But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. (emphasis added) This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants (SC, 36.2). Vatican II made provisions that the “limits” could be extended. They were, according to the Supreme Legislator, the Roman Pontiff, when he promulgated the second edition as the *editio typica *(1975):Since no Catholic would now deny the lawfulness and efficacy of a sacred rite celebrated in Latin, the Council was able to acknowledge that “the use of the mother tongue frequently may be of great advantage to the people” and gave permission for its use. The enthusiasm in response to this decision was so great that, under the leadership of the bishops and the Apostolic See, it has resulted in the permission for all liturgical celebrations in which the faithful participate to be in the vernacular for the sake of a better comprehension of the mystery being celebrated. Permission to use the vernacular, then, was extended by the Roman Pontiff.

Nonetheless, we still chant very often in Latin in my parish and throughout the diocese.
 
I recommend reading “Fulfilling the Council: Sacrosanctum Concilium and the Traditionalist Movement” by Michael P. Foley. It is an online article about how the TLM fulfills almost every requirment of VII, and he seperates the means of Vatican II (vernacular) and the ends (understanding the liturgy). He says that the ends of Vatican II have been met in the TLM recently with out employing the means. I saw that as meaning that liturgical reform didn’t have to reform the rite of mass, but how people understood it and participated in it. It is a great article. I also recommend reading “Conservative vs. Traditional Catholicism” by Fr. Chad Ripperger, F.S.S.P.
 
I would also like to say that a Catholic may remain orthodox and disagree with disciplines in the Church.
 
I would also like to say that a Catholic may remain orthodox and disagree with disciplines in the Church.
Correct. But he must still obey lawful disciplinary norms, whether he agrees with them or not.

In Catholic moral theology, the case of “unjust excommunication” is discussed. In such instances, the victim of unjust excommunication did not in fact objectively commit the crime for which he has been penalized. However, if he were to disregard the subsequent lawful and valid judicial decree, he would indeed then commit a mortal sin. He is called to obey the unjust yet lawful and valid decree, and by doing so he acts meritoriously. He remains in a state of grace unless he willfully disobeys the lawful and valid (yet unjust) excommunication. He can certainly disagree with it, but must obey it.

The same is true of other licit and valid discplinary norms. Another such example is with annulment tribunals. The non-infallible tribunal may very well adjudicate to an objectively incorrect and unjust conclusion about the state of the prior marriage. However, the licit and valid (yet unjust) judgment of the external forum of the Church is to be obeyed nonetheless.

The only condition in which disobedience is permitted is if one’s superior acted outside their scope of authority or demanded something contrary to higher authority.

See more here with regard to unjust excommuncations: Catholic Encyclopedia - Excommunications
 
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