Vatican II

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I agree. This is the sedevacantist argument…I hope you realise.

The question is whether we are concerned with the “pope” or other members of the “teaching apostolate” giving scandal or bad example…or are they promoting false and heretical doctrine (or ignoring the truths of the Faith). A pope can do the former…but not the latter.
Hmmmm…a pope can do both. For instance, John XXII gave a sermon that was promoting false teaching about the Beatific Vision of God. He recanted after much fraternal correction. However, a sermon is not the same as an exercise of the ordinary or solemn magisterium promulgated as an Acta Apostolicae Sedis addressed to the universal Church.
 
Hmmmm…a pope can do both. For instance, John XXII gave a sermon that was promoting false teaching about the Beatific Vision of God. He recanted after much fraternal correction. However, a sermon is not the same as an exercise of the ordinary or solemn magisterium promulgated as an Acta Apostolicae Sedis addressed to the universal Church.
Yes, a pope (or any Catholic) must be pertinacious in his heresy to be a formal heretic. If a Catholic forwards a material heresy without the pertinacity (the disordered act of the will) he is not a heretic in any sense.

Btw, I always see this reference to John XXII…no one I know of thinks he was a heretic.
 
First, I want to thank you for remaining very charitable to me throughout this discussion.
Dear Dave:

Did you expect me to be uncharitable? 🙂

I am a Catholic and I know Our Lord gives us no options when it comes to being charitable. Faith, Hope, and Charity…but Charity being the greatest of these theological virtues.

Yours,

Gorman
 
Active in this context means that such a cardinal may vote in the election, while passive means he himself can be elected.
I believe this is incorrect. I’ll need a little time to research this one. I believe he may participate in the election but is not valid matter for the papacy. One who is not a member of the Church cannot be its head.
Once the pope is elected, he is the valid pope. One then requires a condemnation or sentence pronounced by higher authority [cf. 1917 Code of Canon Laws, canon 2264], to remove him or any other heretic from validly governing as pope.
There can be no condemnation because the pope is not subject to Canon law…but he is subject to divine law, is he not? I think the CE disagrees with you here too…along with many others.

Do you think Canon 188/4 contradicts Canon 2314?
 
Active in this context means that such a cardinal may vote in the election, while passive means he himself can be elected.
Even from UNIVERSI DOMINICI GREGIS:
  1. No Cardinal elector can be excluded from active or passive voice in the election of the Supreme Pontiff, for any reason or pretext, with due regard for the provisions of No. 40 of this Constitution.
There is also a distinction between excommunicated and outside the Church. A Heretic is ipso facto outside the Church although he may have never been excommunicated.
 
Yes, a pope (or any Catholic) must be pertinacious in his heresy to be a formal heretic. If a Catholic forwards a material heresy without the pertinacity (the disordered act of the will) he is not a heretic in any sense.
Heresy, like any other mortal sin, must include the subjective elements of mortal sin (the proper “form”) which are “full advertence and perfect consent,” concurrent with the proper “matter” of mortal sin, which is “grave matter”, or else it is not “formal.” Thus, while heresy is indeed contrary to Divine law, it is contrary to Divine law whether material or formal, whether manifest or occult.

St. Pius X, in his defense against modernism states that he is “leaving out of consideration the internal disposition of soul, of which God alone is the judge” (*Pascendi Dominici Gregis, *3). Consequently we ought not to concern ourselves with a matter of judgment that is the sole prerogative of God.

If the discussion is to be more than an academic one, then the process for determining whether one is a manifest heretic who is fully culpable of the penalty of excommunication, must be from both the viewpoint of a moralist and that of a canonist. One cannot simply choose one and omit the other. Where the moralist’s academic argument ends, the canonist’s practical argument must begin.

The problem with relying upon St. Robert’s De Romano Pontifcae defense against Cardinal Cajetan’s contrary opinion is that it is an academic discussion given the first premise does indeed exist, that the pope is a manifest heretic. However, in applying this argument pratically, we now have to ask how one can lawfully adjudicate a “doubt of fact” as to whether or not the pope is a “manifest” heretic.

There remains a practical canonical problem of defining what a “manifest heretic” is, and the practical canonical norms for judging the pope who, according to Catholic doctrine, nobody on earth has the authority to judge.

Furthermore, in applying the canonical norms to the particular case of a charge of heresy against the pope (who many, including the pope, do not agree is manifestly so), we are faced with a “doubt of fact” which must be resolved by lawful judicial means. Yet, with the particular case of applying the canonical norms to the pope, we inherently have a “doubt of law” which does not bind.

From a moralist point of view, we can never objectively know or judge the internal disposition of the pope’s soul. Consequently, the question whether the pope is a formal heretic by Divine Law alone is indeterminable because we only have recourse to the external evidence. From a canonist point of view, we lack canonical guidance in the particular case of adjudicating the “doubt of fact” as to whether “manifest heresy” of the pope exists or not. We are left with a doubt of fact coupled with a doubt of law until either pope himself or a successor pope resolves it.
 
I believe this is incorrect. I’ll need a little time to research this one. I believe he may participate in the election but is not valid matter for the papacy.
Passive and active in this context are canonical terms which pertain to ecclesiastical jurisdiction. “Jurisdiction is used passively when a person is the object of one of its acts.” (Catholic Encyclopedia - Excommunication). Consequently, what Pius XII’s canonical norms mean when referring to the “passive” power in papal election, is that they can be the object of the election (ie. can be elected pope). This is also what John Paul II means by “passive voice.” It pertains to the ecclesial jurisdiction they possess as the object of the papal election.
 
Heresy, like any other mortal sin, must include the subjective elements of mortal sin (the proper “form”) which are “full advertence and perfect consent,” concurrent with the proper “matter” of mortal sin, which is “grave matter”, or else it is not “formal.” Thus, while heresy is indeed contrary to Divine law, it is contrary to Divine law whether material or formal, whether manifest or occult.
A Catholic can never be a material heretic. He is either a formal heretic or he is not a heretic in any sense.

It seems you are advancing the idea that a heretic is not ipso facto outside the Church. And no one is saying than an occult heretic is outside the Church…he is not…because his heresy is hidden.
St. Pius X, in his defense against modernism states that he is “leaving out of consideration the internal disposition of soul, of which God alone is the judge” (Pascendi Dominici Gregis, 3). Consequently we ought not to concern ourselves with a matter of judgment that is the sole prerogative of God.
And we are not concerned with the internal disposition of anyone’s soul for any reason…we can’t possibly know anyone’s internal disposition. We are concerned however, with the external forum and that is what Pius X is addressing.

Do you think Pius X was saying that we can’t possibly know who actually is a modernist by their words or actions because we can’t know what is in the internal forum?

Here is the entire section 3 of Pascendi:
  1. Although they express their astonishment that We should number them amongst the enemies of the Church, no one will be reasonably surprised that We should do so, if, leaving out of account the internal disposition of the soul, of which God alone is the Judge, he considers their tenets, their manner of speech, and their action. Nor indeed would he be wrong in regarding them as the most pernicious of all the adversaries of the Church. For, as We have said, they put into operation their designs for her undoing, not from without but from within. Hence, the danger is present almost in the very veins and heart of the Church, whose injury is the more certain from the very fact that their knowledge of her is more intimate. Moreover, they lay the ax not to the branches and shoots, but to the very root, that is, to the faith and its deepest fibers. And once having struck at this root of immortality, they proceed to diffuse poison through the whole tree, so that there is no part of Catholic truth which they leave untouched, none that they do not strive to corrupt. Further, none is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious devices; for they play the double part of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and as audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance To this must be added the fact, which indeed is well calculated to deceive souls, that they lead a life of the greatest activity, of assiduous and ardent application to every branch of learning, and that they possess, as a rule, a reputation for irreproachable morality. Finally, there is the fact which is all hut fatal to the hope of cure that their very doctrines have given such a bent to their minds, that they disdain all authority and brook no restraint; and relying upon a false conscience, they attempt to ascribe to a love of truth that which is in reality the result of pride and obstinacy.
Once indeed We had hopes of recalling them to a better mind, and to this end We first of all treated them with kindness as Our children, then with severity; and at last We have had recourse, though with great reluctance, to public reproof. It is known to you, Venerable Brethren, how unavailing have been Our efforts. For a moment they have bowed their head, only to lift it more arrogantly than before. If it were a matter which concerned them alone, We might perhaps have overlooked it; but the security of the Catholic name is at stake. Wherefore We must interrupt a silence which it would be criminal to prolong, that We may point out to the whole Church, as they really are, men who are badly disguised.
 
Passive and active in this context are canonical terms which pertain to ecclesiastical jurisdiction. “Jurisdiction is used passively when a person is the object of one of its acts.” (Catholic Encyclopedia - Excommunication). Consequently, what Pius XII’s canonical norms mean when referring to the “passive” power in papal election, is that they can be the object of the election (ie. can be elected pope). This is also what John Paul II means by “passive voice.” It pertains to the ecclesial jurisdiction they possess as the object of the papal election.
Do you think this (and I don’t really see what you are getting at) theoretically allows a non-member of the Church to be elected pope?
 
i enjoy reading your discussion. however, one little tidbit of infomation. canon law of 1917 was operable and in full force and affect governing the church until it was “reprobated” by the promulation of canon law of 1983. (Book 1, norms liber 1. de normis geralibus, par. 2.) until then the rules of “praestantia scripturae” also governed. it is my understanding that this was incorporated into the code of canon law of 1917. however, i was unable to find an english translation to verify it. have a good year. (ali) p.s. continue the discussion.
 
A Catholic can never be a material heretic. He is either a formal heretic or he is not a heretic in any sense.
Are you claiming that a Catholic cannot err in good faith in asserting heretical opinion? I disagree. This is contrary to even pre-Vatican II moral theology, isn’t it?
 
This is contrary to even pre-Vatican II moral theology, isn’t it?
Has moral theology changed since Vatican II?
Are you claiming that a Catholic cannot err in good faith in asserting heretical opinion? I disagree.
Of course a Catholic can error in good faith…he may hold the material element of heresy (the error) but he is not a heretic in any sense…because he errors in good faith. The perverse state of the will that would make him pertinacious in his error (an therefore a heretic) is not there.
 
Has moral theology changed since Vatican II?

Of course a Catholic can error in good faith…he may hold the material element of heresy (the error) but he is not a heretic in any sense…because he errors in good faith. The perverse state of the will that would make him pertinacious in his error (an therefore a heretic) is not there.
Then it appears we have a disagreement in terminology.

I’m using the term in accord with pre-Vatican II moral theology…

According to Prümmer, Dominic M., O.P., Manuale Theologiae Moralis. Barcelona: Herder, 1961 (vol. 1, p. 365): in doubt as to whether one is a formal or a material heretic, then he is presumed to be a material heretic.
 
Do you think this (and I don’t really see what you are getting at) theoretically allows a non-member of the Church to be elected pope?
Even if a cleric were to be adjudicated as a heretic and excommunicated, the norms of Pius XII for papal election show that his censure is suspended for the election. This does indeed mean that according to Pius XII, a prior heretic could be elected as pope, even if he was previously excommunicated.

Divine law separates even occult heretics from the Church. Yet it is by virtue of the external forum of ecclesial authority whether one is separated (or restored) “in body” to the Church, which alone treats of the jurisdiction validly (yet perhaps illicitly) held by the cleric. The external forum process for doing so is prescribed by universal ecclesial law, which can never by contrary to Divine law or it would be necessarily “dangerous” and “harmful” to the faithful, a proposition already condemned by Pius XII (cf. Auctorm Fidei, 78).

1917 Code of Canon Laws, canon 2264 clearly shows the above to be true when it states that without a condemnation or sentence, the cleric continues to validly exercise jurisdiction.
 
According to Prümmer, Dominic M., O.P., Manuale Theologiae Moralis. Barcelona: Herder, 1961 (vol. 1, p. 365): “in doubt as to whether one is a formal or a material heretic, then he is presumed to be a material heretic.”
Is Prummer referring to Catholics or non-catholics here? My understanding is that a non-catholic can be a material or formal heretic.

Simply put, a Catholic who is referred to as a “material heretic” is in error…he is not outside the Church until he holds this error (the material element, the heretical notion) with pertinacity.
 
Here are some quotes from the Holy Father’s themselves on the weight of how Vatican II was to be observed:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council
Pope John stressed the pastoral, not doctrinal, nature of the Council: The Church did not need to repeat or reformulate existing doctrines and dogmata but rather had to teach Christ’s message in light of the modern world’s ever-changing trends.<<< (My .02…Who knows what this means, “in the modern world”. Christ does not change his Truth because of “trends”. Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow).
Excellent post…I was looking for all this info too…thanks for providing it.
 
…Simply put, a Catholic who is referred to as a “material heretic” is in error…he is not outside the Church until he holds this error (the material element, the heretical notion) with pertinacity.
Whew! Then it appears we agree on at least this point.

As you know, St. Robert held the theological opinion that a pope who is a manifest heretic would no longer be the pope. This must necessarily connote that what St. Robert means by “manifest” includes pertinacity, right?
 
Gorman64:

St Pius X stated: "Although they express their astonishment that We should number them amongst the enemies of the Church, no one will be reasonably surprised that We should do so, if, leaving out of account the internal disposition of the soul, of which God alone is the Judge, he considers their tenets, their manner of speech, and their action."

If one understand St. Pius X’s above use of “we” properly to mean the royal “we” of the Roman Pontiff, then it is clear that the Roman Pontiff can indeed adjudicate whether one is a formal heretic by the his judicial authority whose object is the external forum. I have contended nothing to the contrary.

Nonetheless, if you presume his use of “we” means to includes that even the taught Church have the authority to authentically judge within the external forum, although they have no faculties to do so, to include judging the pope himself, then I disagree.

Since you seem to agree that pertinacity must be present before anyone is separated from the Church for heresy, do you also agree with the following opinon held as “most common and probable” by St. Robert Bellarmine:
It can be believed probably and piously that the supreme Pontiff is not only not able to err as Pontiff but that even as a particular person he is not able to be heretical, by pertinaciously believing something contrary to the faith.” De Romano Pontifice, book 4, chapter VI, cited by Bishop Vincent Ferrer Gasser of Brixen, in the official Relatio on the Proper Sense of the Proposed Doctrine of Papal Infallibility, prior to the vote on Pastor Aeternus (c. July 11, 1870)]
You see, while St. Robert in De Romano Pontifice opposed Cardinal Cajetan’s contrary view that a pope who was a"manifest heretic" could still be the pope, this was merely an academic dispute, since in the same text he also held the view that the pope could NEVER pertinaciously believe something contary to the faith.
 
As you know, St. Robert held the theological opinion that a pope who is a manifest heretic would no longer be the pope. This must necessarily connote that what St. Robert means by “manifest” includes pertinacity, right?
Dave:

At the risk of undermining our newfound agreement…I must clarify:

A heretic is just a heretic. Any Catholic who actually becomes a heretic is a formal heretic. If there was no pertinacity there would be no heresy…only error.

The material element involved in being a heretic is conscious dissent from the Catholic rule of faith, while the formal element is the perverse state of the will which this entails. The distinction thus made, a Catholic who inculpably advances a heretical proposition by inadvertence may perhaps be said to have advanced a material heresy; but he cannot be called a material heretic. He is not a heretic in any sense. A heretic is one who dissents altogether from the Catholic rule of faith, and he will be called a material heretic if he is invincibly ignorant of the authority of the Church which he rejects, and a formal heretic if the Church’s authority has been sufficiently proposed to him, so that his dissent from it is culpable. (This is clearly explained by Cardinal Billot: De Ecclesia Christi, ed. 4, pp. 289-290)

So according to the correct usage of the term, as outlined above, a Catholic can never become a material heretic. He is not invincibly ignorant of the Church’s authority, and any conscious dissent from her teachings will therefore make him a formal heretic. Material heretics are exclusively those baptised non-Catholics who err in good faith. That is why Dr Ludwig Ott notes that “public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.311)

And in fact Dr Ott’s preferred expression - “heretics who err in good faith” is the one used in the Code of Canon Law (Canon 731), which completely eschews the potentially misleading term “material heretics”.

Btw, this discussion has nothing to do with occult heretics; that is not at issue here.

Yours,

Gorman
 
If you presume “we” means the taught Church has the authority to authoritatively decree someone to be a formal heretic, then I disagree.
Dave:

I presume no such thing. The taught Church has no authority to decree anything. This does not mean that a member of the teaching Church cannot be a recognizable heretic and be avoided because of this fact. The declaration declares the fact, it does not create the fact.

Yours,

Gorman
 
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