Vatican liturgy chief urges priests to celebrate Mass facing east

[katy]

I still believe it is better for us all to be facing the same direction when addressing God together. The priest is not “turning his back” on the people any more than the folks in the next pew up are. The readings and such are different…

 

[TyburnTreeHuggr]

Even so, the host sitting at the center, would not have had his back to the people and Christ at the last supper, would not have had his back to the apostles.

Jim

Hey! I was there. They were all on the same side of the table when I took the photo that Leonardo copied for his painting.

(Face palm)

How do you know for certain you’re correct and everybody else is wrong, man?

 

[Brendan]

Even so, the host sitting at the center, would not have had his back to the people and Christ at the last supper, would not have had his back to the apostles.

Jim

But they were all facing the same way, where they not.

Which is what the Cardinal is proposing.

When a shepherd leads his flock, he is out in front and the flock follows, so why should our spiritual shepherds not do the same.

If the shepherd and the flock are facing each other, they are making any progress towards their destination

 

[twf]

Even so, the host sitting at the center, would not have had his back to the people and Christ at the last supper, would not have had his back to the apostles.

Jim

As others have noted, Christ would not have faced the Apostles. Even if He had, they were all priests, not the “congregation”. Our Lord was instituting the priesthood. The Church does not seek to recreate every aspect of the Last Supper in a literal fashion.
The priest does not have his back to us, but rather is leading us in worship. We all face the Lord together. Is the person in the pew in front of me “turning his back” on me? Holy Mass isn’t about us…our feelings…our glory…nor the priest’s.
C.S. Lewis was not a Catholic, but as an Anglican he described this practice quite well in one of his letters (I paraphrase from memory): At some points during the liturgy, the priest faces God and speaks to God on our behalf. At other points in the liturgy, the priest faces the congregation and speaks to the congregation on God’s behalf.
That is exactly what a priest is: a mediator. At holy mass, the priest stands in for Christ Himself, the one true mediator between God and man.

 

[otjm]

I hope his words are heeded. At the very least, this will prevent some priests I know from doing their “talk show host” routine…

Haven’t seen one of those since the mid 80’s - pretty much ran itself out 30 years ago.

 

[otjm]

If only this man were Pope…

Considering that the Cardinals picked Francis as Pope, and considering that allegations are that he was leading along with Ratzinger in the prior election and stepped down in favor of Ratzinger, it would appear somewhere between unlikely and extremely unlikely.

But then, the guessing game of “who is next” has been notoriously inaccurate.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But they were all facing the same way, where they not.

Which is what the Cardinal is proposing.

When a shepherd leads his flock, he is out in front and the flock follows, so why should our spiritual shepherds not do the same.

If the shepherd and the flock are facing each other, they are making any progress towards their destination

Sitting in a U-shaped, the apostles would still have been looking at Jesus’ face, not his back.

Again, the priest is Christ en persona on the altar. Facing the people is as Christ would do.

Jim

 

[otjm]

As others have noted, Christ would not have faced the Apostles. Even if He had, they were all priests, not the “congregation”. Our Lord was instituting the priesthood. The Church does not seek to recreate every aspect of the Last Supper in a literal fashion.
The priest does not have his back to us, but rather is leading us in worship. We all face the Lord together. Is the person in the pew in front of me “turning his back” on me? Holy Mass isn’t about us…our feelings…our glory…nor the priest’s.
C.S. Lewis was not a Catholic, but as an Anglican he described this practice quite well in one of his letters (I paraphrase from memory): At some points during the liturgy, the priest faces God and speaks to God on our behalf. At other points in the liturgy, the priest faces the congregation and speaks to the congregation on God’s behalf.
That is exactly what a priest is: a mediator. At holy mass, the priest stands in for Christ Himself, the one true mediator between God and man.

And Pope Benedict faced everybody…

 

[commenter]

What about the Eastern Catholic Churches, and Eastern Orthodox? Are they close to what Cardinal Sarah is proposing? I don’t think Cardinal Sarah is saying the priest should never face the people, it seems he should face the people for certain portions, and “ad orientem” for others, similar to the C. S. Lewis quote, about what would have been an Anglican service several decades ago. By the way, how do Anglicans handle this today?

 

[commenter]

“To us a priest is primarily a representative, a double representative, who represents us to God and God to us. Our very eyes teach us this in church. Sometimes the priest turns his back on us and faces the East - he speaks to God for us: sometimes he faces us and speaks to us for God”.

C. S. Lewis, from an essay in the book “God in the Dock”.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

“To us a priest is primarily a representative, a double representative, who represents us to God and God to us. Our very eyes teach us this in church. Sometimes the priest turns his back on us and faces the East - he speaks to God for us: sometimes he faces us and speaks to us for God”.

C. S. Lewis, from an essay in the book “God in the Dock”.

So God exists only in the symbolic East ?

Jim

 

[commenter]

So God exists only in the symbolic East ?

Jim

So prayer is only possible when you are kneeling? The answer to my question, and to yours, is no. But we are human beings. Certain things can, sometimes, have special significance to us. Could you live a prayerful life if you never kneel in prayer? Sure. But you don’t have to.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So prayer is only possible when you are kneeling? The answer to my question, and to yours, is no. But we are human beings. Certain things can, sometimes, have special significance to us. Could you live a prayerful life if you never kneel in prayer? Sure. But you don’t have to.

The significance to us should be that God dwells within us, not out in the cosmos somewhere.

When the priest, who is Christ, faces us, he prays to the Father who is present among us.

As far as posture for prayer, the deepest form of prayer is contemplative prayer, and this is generally done while sitting.

Jim

 

[pnewton]

No one is saying God only exists in the East, but facing East in anticipation has a rich pedigree in liturgy. In liturgy, liturgical East is in the direction the congregation faces. I only see three problems that hinder this practice.

1. A lot of Churches simply are not designed for it, with the altar placed such that the priest need to face west.
2. The need in the rubrics to turn and face the people would result in times in the liturgy where the priest would need to turn back and forth, or in some cases, keep circling to the other side of the altar.
3. The false impression that this gesture is turning the back to the priest. Somehow this is seen as snooty, when the opposite is actually true. The priest becomes one with the people in this gesture.

I think the title of the article is fuzzy though. he says it is legitimate to say Mass as orientem. He says it is acceptable, that it could be implemented in Cathedrals.

Then there is one quote he calls it “essential”? Perhaps this is why we should not take interviews and their translation too seriously.

 

[commenter]

The significance to us should be that God dwells within us, not out in the cosmos somewhere.

When the priest, who is Christ, faces us, he prays to the Father who is present among us.

As far as posture for prayer, the deepest form of prayer is contemplative prayer, and this is generally done while sitting.

Jim

No, the significant reason why I worship is the fact that I, or we, are **not **God. All the goodness in me does come from God, but God is lots more. The Cardinal is not saying the priest should never face the people, but rather there are times during the Mass where he should face the people, and times where he might face the same way as the people. The Mass is not all the same identical thing.

 

[OraLabora]

No, the significant reason why I worship is the fact that I, or we, are **not **God. All the goodness in me does come from God, but God is lots more. The Cardinal is not saying the priest should never face the people, but rather there are times during the Mass where he should face the people, and times where he might face the same way as the people. The Mass is not all the same identical thing.

We are not God but God does dwell in us. It is not a novel concept. The Rule of St. Benedict mentions this, and it is 1500 years old.

 

[ProVobis]

An OF facing east (ad orientem)? Good luck with that.

 

[commenter]

We are not God but God does dwell in us. It is not a novel concept. The Rule of St. Benedict mentions this, and it is 1500 years old.

Of course God dwells in us, though He is also much more than the sum of our congregation.
For most of the Church’s history, people who were fully aware that God dwells in us also worshiped with the priest sometimes facing “East” and sometimes turning to the congregation. That is what the cardinal is referring to.

The knowledge that God dwells in us is not new. What **is **new is the neglect of His transcendence in many circles. In many lectures or articles a few decades ago, it was implied (never stated) that the congregation consecrates the bread and wine; or rather, that it is our social communion that makes possible Holy Communion; that the priest is there as sort of an official witness (of our being community). Kind of like a Notary Public. You can guess what that did to vocations.

I don’t think anyone on this thread is shaped by that thinking, just pointing it out. It still lingers.

 

[RPRPsych]

Haven’t seen one of those since the mid 80’s - pretty much ran itself out 30 years ago.

Oh, we still have some here.

 

[Brendan]

We are not God but God does dwell in us. It is not a novel concept. The Rule of St. Benedict mentions this, and it is 1500 years old.

By the same token, there is no place in the temporal world that God does NOT dwell.

He is omnipresent in His Universe.