Vatican liturgy chief urges priests to celebrate Mass facing east

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JimmyG88 said:
…and God is bodily present on the altar and the priest is always facing that way
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Also, the priest is Christ en persona. He offers the body and blood of Jesus to the Father, as a living sacrifice for us.

Facing the people, the priest still faces the altar.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Facing the people. the priest is facing God.

God dwells in each one of us, and is omnipresent.

Jim
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I’m using a term which has been used in many articles defending the “ad orientem” posture. Of course God is omnipresent, which is why I referred to it as symbolic. As human beings, we are not omnipresent, and we rely on gestures and symbols to express certain realities. The priest’s standing the same direction as the people is one symbol of facing God, and it is one which is used by the majority of apostolic Christians.
 
Fuerza said:
I’m using a term which has been used in many articles defending the “ad orientem” posture. Of course God is omnipresent, which is why I referred to it as symbolic. As human beings, we are not omnipresent, and we rely on gestures and symbols to express certain realities. The priest’s standing the same direction as the people is one symbol of facing God, and it is one which is used by the majority of apostolic Christians. I’ll never understand the opposition to this.
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I’m certainly not opposed to it. It’s our tradition. It’s just not important to me. I can see it is to many and for that reason I would welcome it’s use. It’s good to maintain traditions.
 
Fuerza said:
I’m using a term which has been used in many articles defending the “ad orientem” posture. Of course God is omnipresent, which is why I referred to it as symbolic. As human beings, we are not omnipresent, and we rely on gestures and symbols to express certain realities. The priest’s standing the same direction as the people is one symbol of facing God, and it is one which is used by the majority of apostolic Christians.
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Its tradition with a small “t.”

In the early Church, the celebrant faced the people, as Jesus did when he instituted the Holy Eucharist.

For centuries, the Church in the West moved away from the theology of God dwelling within, as was taught in the 4th Century Mystics of the Desert.

For Catholics, God was taught about as being out in the cosmos, out of touch for those of us who are unworthy to be in his presence. We followed Dante’s Divine Comedy more than Scripture.

St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross, began the movement back to centering on God who dwells within, but it still took centuries to understand the concepts of Contemplation.

Even today, many don’t accept it.

Ad Orientum, although acceptable, only helps confuse those who have a hard time understanding that God dwells within us.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Its tradition with a small “t.”

In the early Church, the celebrant faced the people, as Jesus did when he instituted the Holy Eucharist.

For centuries, the Church in the West moved away from the theology of God dwelling within, as was taught in the 4th Century Mystics of the Desert.

For Catholics, God was taught about as being out in the cosmos, out of touch for those of us who are unworthy to be in his presence. We followed Dante’s Divine Comedy more than Scripture.

St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross, began the movement back to centering on God who dwells within, but it still took centuries to understand the concepts of Contemplation.

Even today, many don’t accept it.

Ad Orientum, although acceptable, only helps confuse those who have a hard time understanding that God dwells within us.

Jim
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It would confuse people. And is the mass supposed to confuse us. I have no burning feelings about the orientation of the priest. I’m a bit more for simple celebrations myself done in the way we have grown to understand since the 1970s
 
JimmyG88 said:
It would confuse people. And is the mass supposed to confuse us. I have no burning feelings about the orientation of the priest. I’m a bit more for simple celebrations myself done in the way we have grown to understand since the 1970s
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I do not think I agree. Traditionally, such changes do more to teach than confuse. People aren’t stupid, and most priests aren’t either. I would bet that most would be able to use any such change, even if done occasionally, as a teaching opportunity.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Its tradition with a small “t.”

In the early Church, the celebrant faced the people, as Jesus did when he instituted the Holy Eucharist.

For centuries, the Church in the West moved away from the theology of God dwelling within, as was taught in the 4th Century Mystics of the Desert.

For Catholics, God was taught about as being out in the cosmos, out of touch for those of us who are unworthy to be in his presence. We followed Dante’s Divine Comedy more than Scripture.

St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross, began the movement back to centering on God who dwells within, but it still took centuries to understand the concepts of Contemplation.

Even today, many don’t accept it.

Ad Orientum, although acceptable, only helps confuse those who have a hard time understanding that God dwells within us.

Jim
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As someone with monastic affinities (as oblate, not a monk), the concept of God dwelling within has been well formed in my conscience. It’s at the root of the chapters on hospitality and care for the sick in the Rule of St. Benedict, and of course Matthew 25, on which the Rule extracts the concept. And of course St. Benedict was greatly inspired by the Desert Fathers in writing his Rule.
Before all things and above all things,
care must be taken of the sick,
so that they will be served as if they were Christ in person;
for He Himself said, “I was sick, and you visited Me” (Matt 25:36),
and, “What you did for one of these least ones, you did for Me” (Matt. 25:40).
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(RB Ch. 36)

and
Let all guests who arrive be received like Christ,
for He is going to say,
“I came as a guest, and you received Me” (Matt. 25:35).
And to all let due honor be shown,
especially to the domestics of the faith and to pilgrims.
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(RB Ch. 53)

I should point out too that the celebrant facing the people (in this case his monastic community) has also long roots in monasticism going back well before pre-Conciliar days.
 
OraLabora said:
As someone with monastic affinities (as oblate, not a monk), the concept of God dwelling within has been well formed in my conscience. It’s at the root of the chapters on hospitality and care for the sick in the Rule of St. Benedict, and of course Matthew 25, on which the Rule extracts the concept. And of course St. Benedict was greatly inspired by the Desert Fathers in writing his Rule.

(RB Ch. 36)

and

(RB Ch. 53)

I should point out too that the celebrant facing the people (in this case his monastic community) has also long roots in monasticism going back well before pre-Conciliar days.
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I tend to be drawn toward monasticism, even in my state of life.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I tend to be drawn toward monasticism, even in my state of life.

Jim
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I got that impression from your notion of God dwelling within us. It is a very prevalent concept in monasticism. Have you considered becoming an oblate as a means of living monastic spirituality in your state of life?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Its tradition with a small “t.”

In the early Church, the celebrant faced the people, as Jesus did when he instituted the Holy Eucharist.

Jim
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Jim, we went through this earlier in the thread. Jesus and the Apostles were on the same side of the table at the Last Supper.

If we are so keen on celebrating Mass in the same way as the Last Supper was Instituted, the priest and the people should be on the same side of the altar.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Brendan said:
Jim, we went through this earlier in the thread. Jesus and the Apostles were on the same side of the table at the Last Supper.

If we are so keen on celebrating Mass in the same way as the Last Supper was Instituted, the priest and the people should be on the same side of the altar.

http://christchurchwindsor.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/StApollinareNuovo_LastSupper.jpg
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As a priest who was a liturgist and a master of ceremonies for my bishop, the relative positions of Jesus and The Twelve at the Last Supper to contemporary liturgical celebrations do not have any purposeful correlation.

The image, however, of the Passover rite being celebrated by Jesus standing at a table located against the back wall of the Cenacle, with The Twelve gathered behind him and looking at his back as he faced the wall, is a rather absurd image that contributes nothing to the discussion of orienting an altar in a church today…and I find that image about as useful as proposing that people today should be reclining upon recreated first century divans in the nave whilst the Presider is at the altar…
 
Don_Ruggero said:
As a priest who was a liturgist and a master of ceremonies for my bishop, the relative positions of Jesus and The Twelve at the Last Supper to contemporary liturgical celebrations do not have any purposeful correlation.

The image, however, of the Passover rite being celebrated by Jesus standing at a table located against the back wall of the Cenacle, with The Twelve gathered behind him and looking at his back as he faced the wall, is a rather absurd image that contributes nothing to the discussion of orienting an altar in a church today…and I find that image about as useful as proposing that people today should be reclining upon recreated first century divans in the nave whilst the Presider is at the altar…
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I agree, but Jim keeps bring up a theory of his that Christ was on one side of the table, and everybody else was on the other. And Jim give that as a reason that the Mass should be celebrated in that particular way.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13926309&postcount=11

I was looking to refute that (again).

🙂
 
Facing the people. the priest is facing God.
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The priest is always facing God. The question is more who are the people worshiping, if they’ve come to worship at all.
pnewton said:
I do not think I agree. Traditionally, such changes do more to teach than confuse. People aren’t stupid, and most priests aren’t either. I would bet that most would be able to use any such change, even if done occasionally, as a teaching opportunity.
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Not a bad idea.
 
OraLabora said:
I got that impression from your notion of God dwelling within us. It is a very prevalent concept in monasticism. Have you considered becoming an oblate as a means of living monastic spirituality in your state of life?
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My wife and myself are Secular Order Discalced Carmelites.

However, after 50 years, our community was disbanded due to our numbers declining below five members. So, we’ve been in an non-active state for the past 10 years now.

That being said, I did consider the Oblates at the Benedictine Monastery near my home, but my wife wasn’t interested, so I let it go.

Jim
 
ProVobis said:
The priest is always facing God. The question is more who are the people worshiping, if they’ve come to worship at all.

Not a bad idea.
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They worship God who is in their presence, not out in the cosmos.

Jim
 
Don_Ruggero said:
As a priest who was a liturgist and a master of ceremonies for my bishop, the relative positions of Jesus and The Twelve at the Last Supper to contemporary liturgical celebrations do not have any purposeful correlation.

The image, however, of the Passover rite being celebrated by Jesus standing at a table located against the back wall of the Cenacle, with The Twelve gathered behind him and looking at his back as he faced the wall, is a rather absurd image that contributes nothing to the discussion of orienting an altar in a church today…and I find that image about as useful as proposing that people today should be reclining upon recreated first century divans in the nave whilst the Presider is at the altar…
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The arrangement in that mosaic reminds me of the situation where the main celebrant concelebrates with other priests, such as happens in a monastery. Given that Jesus imparted a sacerdotal commission to His apostles that became the priesthood of today, the imagery kind of validates concelebration as a particular way of offering the Mass. However if one thinks about it, if the 15 or so monks that habitually concelebrate at our abbey faced the altar from the same direction as the community and faithful in the nave (which for the abbey happens to be geographical east), the altar would be totally blocked from view, which is not the case in the EF where the occasions for Mass to be concelebrated are very limited. It this case at the abbey, having the celebrants face east would be nonsensical and in essence create a very wide screen between the altar and the laity, almost like a rood screen of old.

I must point out that this is just a reflection that came to mind from viewing that image; I’m not trying to be pretentious in that this impression has any kind of theological validity.

But it is clear to me that there are times when facing the people isn’t only permissible, it is the only logical option; and I believe the Church has more important issues to deal with than this particular one, which IMHO is in no way relevant to whether a liturgy is beautiful or not. It can be a beautiful liturgy versus populum and a careless one ad orientem, just as much as it can be the other way around. The attitude of the monks seems to be: using the arrangement of our chapel, the nature of our concelebration, the texts and music of the liturgy, and the desires of the Council Fathers at Vatican II, we will attempt to put together the very best liturgy that is befitting to what is being celebrated (and this applies as much to the Divine Office as the Mass) and respects the mind of the Church, as expressed at the Council and in full obedience to the Holy Father.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Fact is, Jesus would not have had his back facing the Apostles, which is the point being made.

Jim
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And my point ( and Fr Ruggero’s) is that the Church does not base such decisions on any conjecture regarding positions at the Last Supper.
 
Brendan said:
And my point ( and Fr Ruggero’s) is that the Church does not base such decisions on any conjecture regarding positions at the Last Supper.
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Not what he said exactly.

The point being, Jesus and the Apostles physical position sitting, reclying, etc, would not have correlation with today’s liturgy.

However, whether the priests faces the people or celebrates Ad Orientum is being presented as the preferred position, per the article by Cardinal Sarah.

Of course, I disagree with him and his call for priests to follow their own preference over the norms established by their own Bishop.

Apparently, I’m not alone on this.

Jim
 
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