Vatican makes attempted ordination of Women a grave crime

[Jesus_Buddha]

I stepped away for a little bit…did I miss any great, careful theological discourse with citations from the Bible and/or Church Fathers regarding the Holy Spirit’s supposed feminine nature?

What exactly constitutes a “feminine” nature?

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

That is a pretty low bar, when it comes to theological questions. Anyway, I’m guessing the reason it came up (I didn’t bring it up) is due to argument for female clergy. It obviously causes some people distress to have an all-male Trinity and/or all-male priesthood.

Please explain what you mean by"that is a pretty low bar, when it comes to theological questions" Would it make any difference to anyone if one discovered the gender of the Holy Spirit? Like I said, I never even thought about it, but now I’m thinking about it. Would it make a difference. Not to me.

 

[StAnastasia]

Please explain what you mean by"that is a pretty low bar, when it comes to theological questions" Would it make any difference to anyone if one discovered the gender of the Holy Spirit? Like I said, I never even thought about it, but now I’m thinking about it. Would it make a difference. Not to me.

Chromosomal analysis is the only sure way of identifying gender.

 

[curlycool89]

Chromosomal analysis is the only sure way of identifying gender.

In most cases you can also look at secondary sexual characteristics (like I said above, when God spoke to Moses it was probably a deep voice, hence the association with male).

 

[rlg94086]

Please explain what you mean by"that is a pretty low bar, when it comes to theological questions" Would it make any difference to anyone if one discovered the gender of the Holy Spirit? Like I said, I never even thought about it, but now I’m thinking about it. Would it make a difference. Not to me.

What I mean by a low bar is that we generally don’t create theories out of nowhere and then justify the random theory by asking “what difference would it make to anyone’s faith?”. If you look at Church history, the simplest of iota become a major point of discussion.

 

[curlycool89]

What I mean by a low bar is that we generally don’t create theories out of nowhere and then justify the random theory by asking “what difference would it make to anyone’s faith?”. If you look at Church history, the simplest of iota become a major point of discussion.

Heck, look at the Catholic-Orthodox schism. One of the causes was the filioque, that is does the Spirit proceed from the Father or from the Father and the Son (Orthodox say the former, Catholics profess the latter)? It is a serious theological debate, but for most people it probably doesn’t affect their everyday lives (that’s not to say it’s not important). Yet something that most people never think about caused the greatest schism the faith has ever seen. 1000 years have gone by and Catholics and Orthodox are still discussing it.

Catholicism is not a faith where we fly by the seat of our pants and do whatever seems cool or “in” at the time. The Truth is the same for all time.

 

[Aramis]

Now I don’t know if there are churches with Apostolic succession who have decided to start ordaining women. This I have not heard. I know No orthodox do it, No Catholic and her branches do it , no SSPX do it, so my only question would again be are there any others Rome recognizes(with succession)who have officially done this? And does that mean the person (female) was truly ordained or is it by virtue of being Illicit mean it did not happen?

The Russian and Greek Orthodox churches permit women to be ordained Deaconess.

No Eastern Orthodox, Oriental/Miaphysite Orthodox, nor Assyrian Church permits ordaining women to the priesthood, only up to deaconess. (Some permit them in minor orders, also.)

 

[rlg94086]

Heck, look at the Catholic-Orthodox schism. One of the causes was the filioque, that is does the Spirit proceed from the Father or from the Father and the Son (Orthodox say the former, Catholics profess the latter)? It is a serious theological debate, but for most people it probably doesn’t affect their everyday lives (that’s not to say it’s not important). Yet something that most people never think about caused the greatest schism the faith has ever seen. 1000 years have gone by and Catholics and Orthodox are still discussing it.

Catholicism is not a faith where we fly by the seat of our pants and do whatever seems cool or “in” at the time. The Truth is the same for all time.

Exactly what I was thinking of!

 

[StAnastasia]

In most cases you can also look at secondary sexual characteristics (like I said above, when God spoke to Moses it was probably a deep voice, hence the association with male).

Secondary sexual characteristics? I looked in Exodus 3 and did not find a reference to God’s deep voice, or to the other secondary sexual characteristics we typically associate with males…

 

[rlg94086]

The Russian and Greek Orthodox churches permit women to be ordained Deaconess.

No Eastern Orthodox, Oriental/Miaphysite Orthodox, nor Assyrian Church permits ordaining women to the priesthood, only up to deaconess. (Some permit them in minor orders, also.)

Hi Aramis,

Am I correct that the faculties of a deaconess are not the same as a deacon (permanent or transitional)? My understanding is that the primary purpose of a deaconess is/was assisting in baptism of women by full immersion.

 

[Aramis]

Seriously, folks?

“qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine”

Ergo; Holy Spirit = masculine.

Not to mention, ALL of Tradition.

And in proper English, both Male and indeterminate pronouns are masculine form.

That is, If you can’t tell, due to unspecificity or ambiguity, the default animate pronoun in English is he/him/his. It/its is for inanimate objects, and she/her/hers is for clearly female animate beings.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

The all-male Trinity, is, of course, one model of God, but it is not the only one. You make an elementary theological mistake if you hypostatize one model and declare it to be the exclusively legitimate one.

StAnastasia

Pope BENEDICT XVI did say on June 7, 2009, “Today we contemplate the Most Holy Trinity as Jesus introduced us to it. He revealed to us that God is love “not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance” (Preface). He is the Creator and merciful Father; he is the Only-Begotten Son, eternal Wisdom incarnate, who died and rose for us; he is the Holy Spirit who moves all things, cosmos and history, toward their final, full recapitulation. Three Persons who are one God because the Father is love, the Son is love, the Spirit is love. God is wholly and only love, the purest, infinite and eternal love. He does not live in splendid solitude but rather is an inexhaustible source of life that is ceaselessly given and communicated. To a certain extent we can perceive this by observing both the macro-universe: our earth, the planets, the stars, the galaxies; and the micro-universe: cells, atoms, elementary particles. The “name” of the Blessed Trinity is, in a certain sense, imprinted upon all things because all that exists, down to the last particle, is in relation; in this way we catch a glimpse of God as relationship and ultimately, Creator Love. All things derive from love, aspire to love and move impelled by love, though naturally with varying degrees of awareness and freedom. “O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!” (Ps 8: 1) the Psalmist exclaims. In speaking of the “name”, the Bible refers to God himself, his truest identity. It is an identity that shines upon the whole of Creation, in which all beings for the very fact that they exist and because of the “fabric” of which they are made point to a transcendent Principle, to eternal and infinite Life which is given, in a word, to Love. “In him we live and move and have our being”, St Paul said at the Areopagus of Athens (Acts 17: 28). The strongest proof that we are made in the image of the Trinity is this: love alone makes us happy because we live in a relationship, and we live to love and to be loved. Borrowing an analogy from biology, we could say that imprinted upon his “genome”, the human being bears a profound mark of the Trinity, of God as Love.”

 

[catharina]

Pope BENEDICT XVI did say on June 7, 2009, “Today we contemplate the Most Holy Trinity as Jesus introduced us to it. He revealed to us that God is love “not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance” (Preface). He is the Creator and merciful Father; he is the Only-Begotten Son, eternal Wisdom incarnate, who died and rose for us; he is the Holy Spirit who moves all things, cosmos and history, toward their final, full recapitulation. Three Persons who are one God because the Father is love, the Son is love, the Spirit is love. God is wholly and only love, the purest, infinite and eternal love. He does not live in splendid solitude but rather is an inexhaustible source of life that is ceaselessly given and communicated. To a certain extent we can perceive this by observing both the macro-universe: our earth, the planets, the stars, the galaxies; and the micro-universe: cells, atoms, elementary particles. The “name” of the Blessed Trinity is, in a certain sense, imprinted upon all things because all that exists, down to the last particle, is in relation; in this way we catch a glimpse of God as relationship and ultimately, Creator Love. All things derive from love, aspire to love and move impelled by love, though naturally with varying degrees of awareness and freedom. “O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!” (Ps 8: 1) the Psalmist exclaims. In speaking of the “name”, the Bible refers to God himself, his truest identity. It is an identity that shines upon the whole of Creation, in which all beings for the very fact that they exist and because of the “fabric” of which they are made point to a transcendent Principle, to eternal and infinite Life which is given, in a word, to Love. “In him we live and move and have our being”, St Paul said at the Areopagus of Athens (Acts 17: 28). The strongest proof that we are made in the image of the Trinity is this: love alone makes us happy because we live in a relationship, and we live to love and to be loved. Borrowing an analogy from biology, we could say that imprinted upon his “genome”, the human being bears a profound mark of the Trinity, of God as Love.”

Thank you. Beautiful.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Thank you. Beautiful.

Yes, it is beautiful what the Pope has said about the Trinity. We agree with him. I am going to make a copy of what the Pope has said and share it with a dear friend who is dying of cancer. Not much time left.

It’s a pleasure to meet you. Have a blessed day.

 

[rschermer2]

I guess I just don’t understand why these two issues are addressed in the same paper. It doesn’t make sense to me.

Because both issues needed addressing so why not?

 

[catharina]

Because both issues needed addressing so why not?

Also because both issues addressed matters of changes in discipline for priests.
So why not?

 

[Corki]

Also because both issues addressed matters of changes in discipline for priests.
So why not?

Also, the paper was a summary of changes and updates being made to policy at a particular point in time. Both issues were addressed so why not put them both in the summary?

 

[rschermer2]

Apparently, the church has forgotten the “legend” of sexually active Pope Joan in the 10th or 11th century. Are there too many details of this person’s existence among chroniclers for it to be a legend? Why do the Popes avoid a certain street during processions? Has anyone ever X-rayed the bust of Pope Zacharias to see whether her image remains after apparent revision of the bust to obliterate and revise her image to that of a man?

Just curious.

Whatever Jack Chick wannabe…those are silly and juvenile accusations or conspiracy theories, along the lines of Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Grow up.

 

[rschermer2]

From my cousin, a Catholic woman in her 70s:

“Is that any different than not passing an amendment to the constitution that women are equal? I think some men get their feeling of masculinity by putting down women. It took time to realize that African Americans are people like you and me. It will take time for men to realize the talent and value of women.”

The Church does recognize the talent and value of women, in many many ways just not the priesthood period. The greatest human to live (aside from Jesus who is divine) was Mary…she’s the greatest Saint and most revered human by the church…what more do they want? She wasn’t a priest she was God’s mother. I think we should elevate some man maybe Joseph to be God’s father? That would be fair and equitable I mean its not fair that a man should not be equally revered is it? Get over this women priests thing, isn’t going to happen, and shouldn’t happen.

 

[rschermer2]

There are some good women priests, I don’t see why the Catholic church considers it a grave crime.

There’s a shortage of Catholic priests, I think that ordination of women might be good thing.

Even Paul said there is no male or female in Christ.

Correction, there are no good women priests because there are no women priests…at least not in the Catholic church. Just because of a shortage doesn’t mean we ignore 2000 years of truth…so what Paul said confirms that Jesus wasn’t sexist since there is neither male or female in him(?) which means he had his reasons for choosing men only to be his apostles.