Vatican makes attempted ordination of Women a grave crime

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JadeStarr said:
I believe that every woman has an inner man and every man has an inner woman. I’m not
talking about lust or desire or anything of that nature, just saying that we humans are not
that different. I don’t follow the idea that being female disqualifies women from being saved.
I understand the part about Lord being of a different Nature than women but why would that make women ineligible for salvation?
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Our Lord’s “nature” is both human and divine.
No other human shares His divine nature.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I was having an interesting exchange with Contarini, who favors WO, and he maintains men and women have the same nature as human beings, just different bodies. And if men and women have different natures, Christ having the male nature, women cannot be saved by Him because they lack His nature and are alien to him. It’s really interesting exploring the concept of natures. I’d like to hear other people’s reply to his argument. I am very anti-WO myself. Contarini was talking about how men and women have the same nature, just different bodies. But to me men and women are spiritually, metaphysically, and biologically different in nature. But his argument is that, by my definition of “natures” being different, women would be inelligible to be saved seeing as how the Lord is of a different nature from women. Interesting argument to be sure.
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Men are men and women are women. The Bible makes this very specific in Genesis 1:27: “God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.” The implication from this verse is that woman was created in addition to man. The wording gives the idea that man could have been created without women.

You can also take a look from a philosophical point of view. Here are 2 statements:
  1. Jesse is a boy
  2. Jesse is a girl
Both statements cannot be correct according to Catholic understanding of genders. That makes these 2 statements mutually exclusive. You can extend that to say that male and female are mutually exclusive. That means that there cannot be 1 if the other is there. Someone is either a man or a women, not both. It means they are not the same strictly speaking.
 
Granted that the media (not surprisingly) gets Catholic theology and doctrine wrong re the ordination of women priests, it still is the case that the Vatican under Pope Benedict has continually demonstrated a tin ear in its public proclamations. Nothing was gained by raising the deeply problamatic issue of ordaining women in the context of clerical child abuse issues. The Vatican seems to rival BP in its ability to bungle its public relations and diplomacy. Certainly someone in the Curia could have advised the leadership of the Church how refering to the ordination of women as a crime or error greater than clerical abuse of children would be taken up by a hostile media. This is not the first time that papal proclamations have made matters worse. The pope may be a fine theologian and a deeply pious man but he he really lacks the sense of prudence necessary to be effective in a political arena predisposed to be anti-Catholic.
 
PoliSciProf said:
Nothing was gained by raising the deeply problamatic issue of ordaining women in the context of clerical child abuse issues.
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The Vatican did not raise the issue of attempting to ordain women “in the context of” clergy sexual abuse. They were simply in the same document - or rather, they are now in the same document. It is only the reporting that has tried to tie them together.

Drug dealing and terrorism are both federal crimes and can be investigated by the FBI. Does that mean that drug dealing is as grave as terrorism? Does it mean that drug dealing must be seen “in the context of” terrorism? Of course not!

This is the same thing. Both attempting ordination of women and clerical sexual abuse are now offenses that are investigated by the CDF. That’s the extent of their interconnectivily. Period - the end.

This is so simple. I am starting to believe that a lot of people are purposely trying to misunderstand it.
 
JadeStarr said:
But how does it follow that because of this women cannot be saved?
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JadeStarr, I apologize, but my memory is faulty. Could you indicate who said that women could not be saved? Or why you believe it to be Catholic doctrine?

Church teaching is that women and men have equal, but complementary, natures.

I’ll quote from Cardinal Ratzinger’s Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Collaboration of Women and Men in the Church and in the World.
Cardinal Ratzinger:
Above all, the fact that human beings are persons needs to be underscored: “Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God”.10 Their equal dignity as persons is realized as physical, psychological and ontological complementarity…
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Furthermore, the importance and the meaning of sexual difference, as a reality deeply inscribed in man and woman, needs to be noted. “Sexuality characterizes man and woman not only on the physical level, but also on the psychological and spiritual, making its mark on each of their expressions”.11 It cannot be reduced to a pure and insignificant biological fact, but rather “is a fundamental component of personality, one of its modes of being, of manifestation, of communicating with others, of feeling, of expressing and of living human love”.12 This capacity to love – reflection and image of God who is Love – is disclosed in the spousal character of the body, in which the masculinity or femininity of the person is expressed.
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From the first moment of their creation, man and woman are distinct, and will remain so for all eternity. Placed within Christ’s Paschal mystery, they no longer see their difference as a source of discord to be overcome by denial or eradication, but rather as the possibility for collaboration, to be cultivated with mutual respect for their difference. From here, new perspectives open up for a deeper understanding of the dignity of women and their role in human society and in the Church.
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He then explains how and why female nature is important to society and the Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html

I don’t understand how anyone could think that the Church believes that women can not be saved.
 
Dale_M said:
JadeStarr, I apologize, but my memory is faulty. Could you indicate who said that women could not be saved? Or why you believe it to be Catholic doctrine?

Church teaching is that women and men have equal, but complementary, natures.

I’ll quote from Cardinal Ratzinger’s Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Collaboration of Women and Men in the Church and in the World.

He then explains how and why female nature is important to society and the Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html

I don’t understand how anyone could think that the Church believes that women can not be saved.
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I believe the comment was in response to post #115 where gurneyhalleck1 conveyed arguments made by Contarini. Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter you referenced would be an excellent one for gurney to read in order to counter Edwin’s argument. The “equal, but complementary, natures,” is the the key to debunking his viewpoint.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
But to me men and women are spiritually, metaphysically, and biologically different in nature. But his argument is that, by my definition of “natures” being different, women would be inelligible to be saved seeing as how the Lord is of a different nature from women. Interesting argument to be sure.
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It is an illogical argument. A lamb has no human nature, but was used to redeem man in the Mosaic Law.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his grace 8 that he lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight, 9 he has made known to us the mystery of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him 10 as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth.
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Redemption applies to all things in heaven and earth.
 
rlg94086 said:
I believe the comment was in response to post #115 where gurneyhalleck1 conveyed arguments made by Contarini. Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter you referenced would be an excellent one for gurney to read in order to counter Edwin’s argument. The “equal, but complementary, natures,” is the the key to debunking his viewpoint.
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Thank you, that is what I was puzzled about.
Some really deep thinking on the part of both people, maybe I should just excuse myself from this discussion.
 
Dale_M said:
Sacrifices will need to be made to deal with the growing priest shortage, such as assigning a priest to multiple churches and allowing a deacon or lay person to look after the material welfare of the parish.
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It may be that Church membership will shrink to keep pace with the declining number of priests.
 
StAnastasia said:
It may be that Church membership will shrink to keep pace with the declining number of priests.
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That does seem to be the trend in the US and Europe. I suspect Canada and Australia are similar, but I do not know.

Pope Benedict seems to have an interest in drawing a clearer line between those who are inside the Church and those who are outside the Church. Such a sharper distinction, in itself, could significantly pare membership. But it might also be necessary to protect the spiritual welfare of those who wish to be Catholic. It might also be key to stopping the erosion of members who are slowly adopting the norms of secular culture, and then drifting away.
 
Benedict brings comfort that the faith will not fall to the voice of the people which is often the voice of satan (c.k. Chesterton).
 
Dale_M said:
Pope Benedict seems to have an interest in drawing a clearer line between those who are inside the Church and those who are outside the Church. Such a sharper distinction, in itself, could significantly pare membership.

Maybe there will be a schism in the US, resulting in the Roman Catholic and the American Catholic Church
But it might also be necessary to protect the spiritual welfare of those who wish to be Catholic.
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StAnastasia said:
In my parish, it is those who are more comfortable with secular culture who are joining the church.
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Hmmm…could that be due to your parish being more comfortable with secular culture than the teachings of the Catholic Church that are contrary to secular culture (e.g. open homosexuality, birth control, abortion, divorce, etc.)?
 
rlg94086 said:
Hmmm…could that be due to your parish being more comfortable with secular culture than the teachings of the Catholic Church that are contrary to secular culture (e.g. open homosexuality, birth control, abortion, divorce, etc.)?
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The first two, yes; not so much the last two.
 
StAnastasia said:
The first two, yes; not so much the last two.
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I prefer a parish that teaches the truth without caving in to secular society -“in this world, but not of this world.” If people leave because they disagree with Church teaching, I’m ok with that. It’s not called the narrow gate/constricted road (Matt 7:14) for no reason. 👍
 
Too late. Two rebel bishops in the US already ordained a couple of women bishops who have in turn ordained other bishops and priests. Sometimes the Holy Spirit does the unexpected. Maybe the Holy Spirit does protect Christ’s Church. She/He/It has been correcting errors made through human judgement within the Church for 2,000 years.

Today the “corporate officers” at the Vatican home office have ruled that ordained women and priests molesting and having sex with children, as both being grave sins.

The penalty for an ordained women-excommunication. Nothing vague about that. Oh and the ordaining priest has to be kicked out of ministry too.

Priests found to be pedophiles in the last 50 years-forgive them in confession as many times as they are caught and repent. Maybe put them in treatment and then reasign to another parish. But when the public gets pretty close to finding out place them in a non public ministry out of sight until they die.

And none of the cardinals or popes over age 60 have ever known anything about this at all. They didn’t hide anyone. None of them ever did this. They never knew of anyone else ever doing this.Today they are just trying to fix the problem.

So today, in reaction to the worlds shock, there are now thousands of words making dozens of concepts leading to defrocking and when someone outside the church gets civil authorities involved, those priests are subject to laws in such places such laws exists. If the bishop finds out he can call the authorities but the actual “church” rules don’t make this mandatory.

To sum up,

So one grave sin, women catholic priests results in unquestionable excommunication. But another grave sin, clergical sexual abuse of kids does not result in excommunication. So IF they get caught and go to prison, they get to keep recieving the sacraments.

And just what is the official position on ordination of homosexuals; “don’t ask, don’t tell”?

All sarcasm and disdain aside this is so outrageous I don’t really know how to express it. I do know that if I wanted to be a priest, I could not choose to do so as I do not want to be associated in any way to being in a subordinate, reporting, staff position to our church leaders. Shame on them.
 
Philiswilling,

I think your heart is in the right place but your facts are a bit twisted.

Keep in mind that those women who try to be ordained and the people who attempt to ordain them can also repent, go to Confession and have their excommunications lifted. They are then back in full communion and welcome to receive the Sacraments.

Priests who are involved in sexual abuse of minors are removed from ministry and usually put on the path to laicization (which is a process, not a decree). While there are no requirement to report that is included in the universal document (for reasons explained above), there are local documents that require reporting and cooperation with authorities in almost all countries. Yes, they can be forgiven in Confession. Yes, if absolved, they can receive Communion in prison. Thank God we all can be forgiven of our sins. Thank God there are those who are involved in bringing the Sacraments to prisoners.

You are confused. Excommunication is like a final warning and it can be easily removed. Removal from ministry and laicization are permanent sanctions that affect the priest involved for the rest of his life. Who is getting the more severe punishment?
 
philiswilling said:
Too late. Two rebel bishops in the US already ordained a couple of women bishops who have in turn ordained other bishops and priests. Sometimes the Holy Spirit does the unexpected. Maybe the Holy Spirit does protect Christ’s Church. She/He/It has been correcting errors made through human judgement within the Church for 2,000 years.
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sign 2 things in the first paragraph.

#1: Women cannot be ordained a priest or consecrated a bishop. Even if bishops with valid apostolic succession consecrate a women a bishop, nothing happens because women can’t receive Orders. So these women are not bishops at all, and any “ordinations” they do are just as invalid. They mine as well be Anglican clergy or some person who ordered an ordination on the internet. There is no indelible mark on their souls that a man receives when he receives Orders. They are still lay people simply parading around as if they are a member of the clergy.

#2: He. The correct definite article is He when referring to the Holy Spirt. Because the Spirit is God and God is always referred to by the masculine article because that is the way He decreed it. To use any other article is a smack in the face of God Himself.
 
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