Vatican on Society of St. Pius X: Position Insufficient to Restore Full Unity With Church at Present

[mattkubes]

Maybe I misunderstood this:
It seemed like you were pointing to them, i.e., using them as an example.

Admittedly I wasn’t very clear. I was using them as a clear example of heresy and schism that needs to be addressed by the Church and was trying to express that, from my position, I find it odd that a group that isn’t heretical or isn’t in schism is getting treated so harshly. My position would be odd if I was admitting that they were both guilty of the same crime in varying degrees - but that’s not my position.

In any case I’ll defer to the judgement of the Church, but I’m also confident that they’ll be exonerated in the future despite what may happen now.

 

[Walking_Home]

That’s your call to make. Personally, I find them to be more trustworthy because** they do listen to Rome,**

and their Priests have valid facilities.

Prayers to the SSPX, that they may see that they need to come home to Rome, and not the other way around.​

That may not be quite accurate – given that the Pope has had to insist to them – to be “in profound communion with Apostolic See and Pastors of the particular Churches”. And the Pope also cautions them about their liturgical celebrations.

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=13668

 

[Melchior_1]

---

That may not be quite accurate – given that the Pope has had to insist to them – to be “in profound communion with Apostolic See and Pastors of the particular Churches”. And the Pope also cautions them about their liturgical celebrations.

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=13668

Indeed, however;

1. Their priests still have faculties, better than I can say for certain others.
2. Benedict has insisted to them to be in communion, and given them caution. The NCW have, and has, made several statements saying they assent to the will of the Pontiff and will make any changes required. Again, better than I can say for certain others.

They’re being obedient to what the Pope, and his delegates, ask. That’s better than a lot of groups are doing on either side of this.

 

[Walking_Home]

Indeed, however;

1. Their priests still have faculties, better than I can say for certain others.
2. Benedict has insisted to them to be in communion, and given them caution. ** The NCW have, and has, made several statements saying they assent to the will of the Pontiff and will make any changes required. ** Again, better than I can say for certain others.

They’re being obedient to what the Pope, and his delegates, ask. That’s better than a lot of groups are doing on either side of this.

---

From what I have read – the NCW – has been saying that from day one-- yet today the Pope is called to insist – that they assent to the will of the Apostolic See. Sounds more like the NCW paying – “lip service” – and continuing to doing things the Kiko Arguello/NCW “way”.

 

[Dirt]

The elephant in this room is clear. If the SSPX refuses to abide by, and sign on to ALL of Vatican Council II the regularization will not happen. The Curia cannot/will not allow a dissenting group by normalized(?) while still maintaining an attitude that Vatican Council II was a rupture from the 20 Councils that came before it. They must give their support. So Bishop Fellay and the SSPX is caught between the frying pan and the fire. Either give assent, even though you do not believe it, or hold to your position and wind up in Schism. I am truly saddened by this episode. I am thankful not to be in Bishop Fellay’s shoes.
What saddens me more is that given the painfully evident lack of Faith in so many today, as witnessed by the headlines we see on a daily basis from people and groups purporting to be Catholic yet running headlong in the opposite direction from Catholic teaching and Doctrine, that the SSPX are the ones in this dilemma. I feel as if we, as a Church are at a tipping point. And i worry as to which way we will fall. The Blessed Mother warned of serious chastisements in the later days. I feel as if we may be closing in on that period.

 

[pnewton]

In any case I’ll defer to the judgement of the Church, but I’m also confident that they’ll be exonerated in the future despite what may happen now.

In the interest of fairness, I will add that I also think the NCW is a distraction and bringing them up as paragons of obedience is equally suspect. I don’t understand why either side seeks comparison when the Church (and God) doesn’t grade on a curve.

 

[Lormar]

What saddens me more is that given the painfully evident lack of Faith in so many today, as witnessed by the headlines we see on a daily basis from people and groups purporting to be Catholic yet running headlong in the opposite direction from Catholic teaching and Doctrine, that the SSPX are the ones in this dilemma. I feel as if we, as a Church are at a tipping point. And i worry as to which way we will fall. The Blessed Mother warned of serious chastisements in the later days. I feel as if we may be closing in on that period.

When Our Lord was on His way to Calvary, they say He was so disfigured as to be unrecognizable. All of the Apostles, His chosen companions and friends, deserted Him. I often wonder what was going through their minds after He died. When He was laid in the tomb, surely they must have thought it was all over. I often wonder if any of them felt like they had been played for the fool; they must have thought to themselves: what kind of a Messiah was this?

Only Our Blessed Mother knew it wasn’t all over.

 

[jwinch2]

I hadn’t seen this posted yet.

ncregister.com/daily-news/vatican-on-society-of-st.-pius-x-position-insufficient-to-restore-full-unit/

Here is an excerpt from the article:

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has found that the position Bishop Fellay expressed is ‘not sufficient to overcome the doctrinal problems which lie at the foundation of the rift between the Holy See and the Society of St. Pius X,’ a March 16 communiqué from the Holy See Press Office said. The congregation has invited Bishop Fellay to clarify his position 'in order to be able to heal the existing rift, as is the desire of Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[mattkubes]

An update from Salvatori Izzo on AGI via Rorate Cæli:

“The Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal William Joseph Levada, delivered [the content of the communiqué] to the Superior General of the Society, Bishop Bernard Fellay, in a conversation that lasted for over two hours … . During today’s meeting in the Palace of the Holy Office - in which the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Abp. Luis Francisco Ladaria, and the Secretary of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, Mgr. Guido Pozzo, also took part, while Bp. Fellay was joined by his assistant Fr. Nély - a complete rupture was avoided by the Holy See, making it clear that Benedict XVI still expects a recomposition.”

 

[floresco]

An update from Salvatori Izzo on AGI via Rorate Cæli:

“The Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal William Joseph Levada, delivered [the content of the communiqué] to the Superior General of the Society, Bishop Bernard Fellay, in a conversation that lasted for over two hours … . During today’s meeting in the Palace of the Holy Office - in which the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Abp. Luis Francisco Ladaria, and the Secretary of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, Mgr. Guido Pozzo, also took part, while Bp. Fellay was joined by his assistant Fr. Nély - a complete rupture was avoided by the Holy See, making it clear that Benedict XVI still expects a recomposition.”

That is encouraging.

 

[Rolltide]

Perhaps the most concerning line of the statement:

“At the end of today’s meeting, moved by concern to avoid an ecclesial rupture of painful and incalculable consequences, the superior general of the Society of St. Pius X was invited to clarify his position in order to be able to heal the existing rift, as is the desire of Pope Benedict XVI”.

It seems like a line in the sand may finally have been drawn.

Father Z has some commentary here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2012/03/holy-see-statement-about-sspx-and-avoiding-ecclesial-rupture-of-painful-and-incalculable-consequences/

 

[JReducation]

As my mother would say, “I hate to say I told you so.” I always told the Traditionalists that the person that they had to convince was Cardinal Levada. They kept telling me that it was the Holy Father. I said, “At the end of the day, Cardinal Levada will call the final shot and he will give it to the Holy Father to sign. That’s the way that Cardinal Ratzinger worked with Pope John Paul II.” I knew that Cardinal Levada would go so far and draw the line in the sand.

The actual text says that the Society has to review and resubmit it’s position “to avoid an ecclesial rupture of painful and incalculable consequences,”

In plain English, the Vatican is not going to budge another inch and if there is a schism, the Vatican is putting the moral blame on the shoulders of Bishop Felay.

Stop and think about it, beyond the current ambiguous status of the SSPX, what else can be more painful and bring about incalculable consequences? It’s almost saying, this is where the Vatican stands, you have to come to meet us or not. It’s your call.

They’re not being told to go away, but the Vatican is bracing itself for that possibility. We all knew that at some point the Holy See was going to get tired and was going to draw the line in the sand.

Now, let’s pray that Bishop Felay can get his confreres to budge a little. From our mouths to God’s ears.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

I feel as if we, as a Church are at a tipping point. And i worry as to which way we will fall. The Blessed Mother warned of serious chastisements in the later days. I feel as if we may be closing in on that period.

I don’t see this as that big of an issue that the Church is in danger. This is not a very large group as a percentage of the sheep. The Lord, and the Holy Father, will seek the one in 99 of the sheep. Though they are less than one percent, it is still worth all the effort, time, patience and prayer that the Holy See deems prudent to bring them back. In the end however, the Church will still remain.

 

[sw85]

As my mother would say, “I hate to say I told you so.” I always told the Traditionalists that the person that they had to convince was Cardinal Levada. They kept telling me that it was the Holy Father. I said, “At the end of the day, Cardinal Levada will call the final shot and he will give it to the Holy Father to sign. That’s the way that Cardinal Ratzinger worked with Pope John Paul II.” I knew that Cardinal Levada would go so far and draw the line in the sand.

The actual text says that the Society has to review and resubmit it’s position “to avoid an ecclesial rupture of painful and incalculable consequences,”

In plain English, the Vatican is not going to budge another inch and if there is a schism, the Vatican is putting the moral blame on the shoulders of Bishop Felay.

Stop and think about it, beyond the current ambiguous status of the SSPX, what else can be more painful and bring about incalculable consequences? It’s almost saying, this is where the Vatican stands, you have to come to meet us or not. It’s your call.

They’re not being told to go away, but the Vatican is bracing itself for that possibility. We all knew that at some point the Holy See was going to get tired and was going to draw the line in the sand.

Now, let’s pray that Bishop Felay can get his confreres to budge a little. From our mouths to God’s ears.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

I’m coming around to this view, though I’ve hoped and prayed for a resolution. Bp. Fellay’s remarks (to the extent that he’d rather be a sedevacantist schismatic than a subject of the Holy Father) are pretty radical.

A real shame, too.

 

[sw85]

When Our Lord was on His way to Calvary, they say He was so disfigured as to be unrecognizable. All of the Apostles, His chosen companions and friends, deserted Him. I often wonder what was going through their minds after He died. When He was laid in the tomb, surely they must have thought it was all over. I often wonder if any of them felt like they had been played for the fool; they must have thought to themselves: what kind of a Messiah was this?

Only Our Blessed Mother knew it wasn’t all over.

I’m sure they thought this even before – Peter denied Christ for a reason, after all. No doubt dying for Him at that point just seemed pointless. (O ye of little faith!)

 

[jwinch2]

As my mother would say, “I hate to say I told you so.” I always told the Traditionalists that the person that they had to convince was Cardinal Levada. They kept telling me that it was the Holy Father. I said, “At the end of the day, Cardinal Levada will call the final shot and he will give it to the Holy Father to sign. That’s the way that Cardinal Ratzinger worked with Pope John Paul II.” I knew that Cardinal Levada would go so far and draw the line in the sand.

The actual text says that the Society has to review and resubmit it’s position “to avoid an ecclesial rupture of painful and incalculable consequences,”

In plain English, the Vatican is not going to budge another inch and if there is a schism, the Vatican is putting the moral blame on the shoulders of Bishop Felay.

Stop and think about it, beyond the current ambiguous status of the SSPX, what else can be more painful and bring about incalculable consequences? It’s almost saying, this is where the Vatican stands, you have to come to meet us or not. It’s your call.

They’re not being told to go away, but the Vatican is bracing itself for that possibility. We all knew that at some point the Holy See was going to get tired and was going to draw the line in the sand.

Now, let’s pray that Bishop Felay can get his confreres to budge a little. From our mouths to God’s ears.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

I wish I could disagree with any of your analysis but I can’t. I think an added variable may be the reported retirement of Cardinal Levada. He may want to wrap this up before he is done rather than passing it off to the next person.

I pray that this will not go the wrong direction. Let us hope that clearer heads and pure hearts prevail.

 

[TimothyH]

I sometimes get the impression that there are people who are almost waiting in anticipation for the SSPX to be declared in schism.

I mean, who do they think they are, huh? What makes them holier than the Pope? That’ll show 'em.

Right?

I know that nothing is impossible for God.

The sword cuts both ways, doesn’t it?

There are some who insist that liberal catholics should be excommunicated for their disobedience to Church doctrine. Many have openly called for the excommunication of specific individuals, naming them by name.

It is sad when anyone licks their lips in anticipation of revenge.

-Tim-

 

[Ancient1]

No big surprise there. Bishop Fellay just missed his opportunity to go down in history as a great leader who worked with a Pope to resolve a great schism. Oh well, onto the dust heap of history. Probably would eventually have even been a saint. But for ego.

(and please don’t tell me it’s not a schism, blah blah, start a new thread for that.)

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t see this as that big of an issue that the Church is in danger. This is not a very large group as a percentage of the sheep. The Lord, and the Holy Father, will seek the one in 99 of the sheep. Though they are less than one percent, it is still worth all the effort, time, patience and prayer that the Holy See deems prudent to bring them back. In the end however, the Church will still remain.

pn, it’s not in danger but four bishops with Apostolic Succession are a concern. These aren’t sheep; they’re Shepherds, and just like the Old Catholics, can consecrate other bishops (Shepherds). There is certainly nothing to cheer as long as any Apostolic Succession is outside communion with Rome.

 

[pnewton]

pn, it’s not in danger but four bishops with Apostolic Succession are a concern. These aren’t sheep; they’re Shepherds, and just like the Old Catholics, can consecrate other bishops (Shepherds). There is certainly nothing to cheer as long as any Apostolic Succession is outside communion with Rome.

I never said there was anything to cheer about in this. No, nothing at all. On the other hand, it is not a threat to the Church. As we are all sheep, they too are sheep in the flock of Christ, though they were also the shepherds. I refuse to think of them as wolves. Yet at the time, I hope they can once again have the ministry of being a shepherd.