Vatican - Orthodox agree on primacy of Pope

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Vatican-Orthodox commission agrees on primacy of Pope; differ on significance
22 hours ago

VATICAN CITY - A joint commission working to heal the 1,000-year split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches has agreed the Pope has primacy over all bishops but disagrees over just what that authority permits him to do.

The Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue reached the agreement during talks last month in Ravenna, Italy, according to a document being published Thursday.

The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches were united until the Great Schism of 1054, which was precipitated largely by disagreements over the primacy of the Pope.

Tensions remain strained over Orthodox accusations that the Vatican is seeking converts on traditionally Orthodox territories, particularly in eastern Europe - allegations that Rome denies.

Pope Benedict has said that uniting all Christians and healing the split is a “fundamental” priority of his pontificate.

The theological commission said it agreed in Ravenna that Rome occupied the “first place” in canonical order of the ancient seats of bishops - including Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.

The commission said it agreed “that the bishop of Rome was therefore the ‘protos’ (first in ancient Greek) among the patriarchs.”

“They disagree, however, on the interpretation of the historical evidence from this era regarding the prerogatives of the bishop of Rome as 'protos,”’ the commission’s document said.

“While the fact of primacy at the universal level is accepted by both East and West, there are differences of understanding with regard to the manner in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and theological foundations,” the document continued.

It said the role of the bishop of Rome - the Pope - in communion with other churches must be studied in greater depth.

The Oct. 8-15 meeting in Ravenna was the second since the Catholic-Orthodox theological dialogue resumed in 2006 after breaking off for six years.

The meeting was marred at the start when delegates from the Russian Orthodox Church walked out over a territorial dispute with a rival Orthodox church.

The Russian Orthodox representative who walked out, Bishop Ilarion, posted the commission’s final document on his website ahead of the official release Thursday. The Vatican confirmed its authenticity.

In his posting, Ilarion noted that the document was adopted without the presence of representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate at the meeting, casting doubt over whether it could be considered to reflect Moscow’s view.

“The Moscow Patriarchate will analyze the Ravenna document and present its conclusions in due course,” the posting said.
 
haven’t we always known they accept the primacy but not the supremacy?
 
I don’t believe it’s ever been pronounced officially from a joint declaration.
 
I have an opinion on this. I think most of you would agree. I think the first key issue of unity lies in the agreement of the Papacy. Once both the Catholic and Orthodox Leaders come up with some agreement, unity is very much a possibility.

On the issue of conversation, I think that left to the individual if they want to convert. Since it is the Holy Spirit who guides people to conversion. I don’t think people in Russia are forcely converted to Catholicism.

Once unity happens, by having Rome accept the Eastern Orthodox keep their Traditions and practices, conversion wouldn’t be necessary since they will be one church.

We can pray. This does look hopeful.
 
I have an opinion on this. I think most of you would agree. I think the first key issue of unity lies in the agreement of the Papacy. Once both the Catholic and Orthodox Leaders come up with some agreement, unity is very much a possibility.
ultimately both sides would have to make compromises. agree?
 
I have an opinion on this. I think most of you would agree. I think the first key issue of unity lies in the agreement of the Papacy. Once both the Catholic and Orthodox Leaders come up with some agreement, unity is very much a possibility.

On the issue of conversation, I think that left to the individual if they want to convert. Since it is the Holy Spirit who guides people to conversion. I don’t think people in Russia are forcely converted to Catholicism.

Once unity happens, by having Rome accept the Eastern Orthodox keep their Traditions and practices, conversion wouldn’t be necessary since they will be one church.

We can pray. This does look hopeful.
God bless !

I only want to say that there will be no UNIA - perhaps some local churches but not all. This Unia will only bring Schism and new Seperation !

Because orthodox can only accept unia when all innovations are put aside - I think this will never happen in rcc - so I can not really believe in an Re- Union.

In CHRIST
 
God bless !

I only want to say that there will be no UNIA - perhaps some local churches but not all. This Unia will only bring Schism and new Seperation !

Because orthodox can only accept unia when all innovations are put aside - I think this will never happen in rcc - so I can not really believe in an Re- Union.

In CHRIST
Even if it is God’s will that His Church be One and unification becomes a reality, you would not accept the Council of your Churches?

Suppose one day, the Bishops in all Eastern Orthodox form a Ecumenical Synod to decide finally that they see fit and proper that they should reunit with the Church in Rome?

Would you go against that Council? Against your own Church?

You know it is coming. Jesus prayed for it. Do you want to deny Jesus’ prayer that “they will be one, just as the the Father and I are one.”
 
ultimately both sides would have to make compromises. agree?
They would have to make unity possible. I think the Pope wants it and so do many of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs. The Russian Patriarch also favors it but theologian issues need to be work out. Coming with a compromise on the papacy is the first step. I don’t think the unity will affect the traditions of the Eastern Orthodox since Vatican Council II made it similiar clear to the Eastern Rite Catholics that their traditions, liturgy, and other norms be preserved from any influence from Latinizing.
 
God bless !

I only want to say that there will be no UNIA - perhaps some local churches but not all. This Unia will only bring Schism and new Seperation !

Because orthodox can only accept unia when all innovations are put aside - I think this will never happen in rcc - so I can not really believe in an Re- Union.

In CHRIST
It’s quite sad that you would not even trust your bishops as being led by the Holy Spirit at a council. If a council were to declare these “innovations” as truth you would even deny that council and the Holy Spirit?
 
It’s quite sad that you would not even trust your bishops as being led by the Holy Spirit at a council. If a council were to declare these “innovations” as truth you would even deny that council and the Holy Spirit?
Matthew Chapter 12 verse 30-32:
30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the** Spirit shall not be forgiven**. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come
.
 
Knowing practically nothing of the Orthodox side of Christianity or what the major difference is besides not wanting to be headed by Rome this seems really encouraging.
At the least it’s not turning into an incident when the Russian Envoy starts banging his shoe during another’s speech! 😉
 
The Orthodox Church has never denied the primacy. This is nothing new. It rejects Rome’s claim to supremacy.
 
Even if it is God’s will that His Church be One and unification becomes a reality, you would not accept the Council of your Churches?

Suppose one day, the Bishops in all Eastern Orthodox form a Ecumenical Synod to decide finally that they see fit and proper that they should reunit with the Church in Rome?

Would you go against that Council? Against your own Church?

You know it is coming. Jesus prayed for it. Do you want to deny Jesus’ prayer that “they will be one, just as the the Father and I are one.”
God bless u !

Of course God want’s that we are one - when we have the same faith - we can not be one when our believe is different.
I have to tell I would not accept such council I would immediatly leave because the church would have lost orthodoxy. But believe me I would not be alone such an union will only bring Schism and seperation like we have seen in greece and other local churches.
My church is orthodoxy but when she will lose it I would of course leave otherwise I would also be guilty.

U know how many orthodox in greece are against the EP and his behavier ?

Do u not read the church Fathers and that they say that it is sometimes better to have seperation than to have wrong unity- it would be pseudo unity - so it would be wrong.

But of course when u leave all innovations behind and will return to true faith we will embrace u with love in Christ and joy !! But Ii think the rcc will not leave their innovations so there will be no union.

In Christ
 
It’s quite sad that you would not even trust your bishops as being led by the Holy Spirit at a council. If a council were to declare these “innovations” as truth you would even deny that council and the Holy Spirit?
God bless!

It would not be the Holy Spirit who lead them ! It woul be another Spirit and so it would be better to disagree than to agree.

You are right - when u want to say that we should be obedient to our Hierarchy ! BUT and now it comes the great but, when any Bishop act against the Tradition or Canons of the Holy Church we have to be disobedient otherwise we would also be guilty of trampling down the Holy Canons - we know from history that there were times when only some few orthodox were left, like St. Maximos the confessor- he did oppose most of all Patriarchs and he was right to do- God blessed him for this.

The Holy Spirit would never lead us against Tradition wich he revealed to us ( he would not lead us against his own revelation),
never can an “innovation” be true. NEVER

All heretics were innovators - did u not read the Documents of the great Synods ? The only things was to guard the faith of old against the innovations of the heretics.

We also have the prophecies of the many Elders and Saints they clearly and exactly told us what will come in the future.
The religion of the Antichrist- there will be one Religion for all and he will make himself the leader - because it is easier to control one instead of many.

In CHRIST

A true union YES OF COURSE it would be a great sin to be against, but wrong and pseudo union NO .
 
God bless u !

Of course God want’s that we are one - when we have the same faith - we can not be one when our believe is different.
I have to tell I would not accept such council I would immediatly leave because the church would have lost orthodoxy. But believe me I would not be alone such an union will only bring Schism and seperation like we have seen in greece and other local churches.
My church is orthodoxy but when she will lose it I would of course leave otherwise I would also be guilty.
I had made a point in another thread that there will be dissenters on both sides who opposes unification. I would not be surprise at all of you are one of them.
U know how many orthodox in greece are against the EP and his behavier ?
Pardon my ignorance what is EP?
Do u not read the church Fathers and that they say that it is sometimes better to have seperation than to have wrong unity- it would be pseudo unity - so it would be wrong.
I read the ECF. I heard that we are to avoid schism, and stand firm for unity.
But of course when u leave all innovations behind and will return to true faith we will embrace u with love in Christ and joy !! But Ii think the rcc will not leave their innovations so there will be no union.
These so called innovations maybe defined different to get a better understanding on theological differences. I trust the Holy Spirit will bring the One Church into One flock once again. I do think the Roman Church will respect Eastern Orthodox’s Liturgy, Traditions, and others that goes along with it.
 
Suppose one day, the Bishops in all Eastern Orthodox form a Ecumenical Synod to decide finally that they see fit and proper that they should reunit with the Church in Rome?

(snip)…

You know it is coming. Jesus prayed for it. Do you want to deny Jesus’ prayer that “they will be one, just as the the Father and I are one.”
It’s such a shame we Orthodox Catholics have been stifled by the CAF admin…the migration to OC.net continues & I’m joining the crowd rather than entertain this RC nonsense any longer.

“You know it’s coming”?! How arrogant. It’s amusing to me that the RCs here can’t begin to fathom that perhaps what’s coming is that ROME refutes her years of innovations & “development” and rejoins the fold she left so many years ago. Already we’re seeing her “amend” and “adjust” and “rephrase”, trying to backtrack over things she now knows she never should have done. Hopefully she continues and eventually rejoins her family.

I believe our Synods have spoken pretty consistently on the matter of union. Merging 2 clubs with key differences in core beliefs just to be united in name is pointless.

When we believe and practice the same Faith, then we will be one (and frankly at that point we won’t have to worry about “changing names” or who’s “joining who”…). Actions speak louder than words, and all this talk about “when those Orthodox are gonna submit” is just making me nauseous.

I bid you all adieu.

In CHRIST,
USCGWife
 
Questions:

I know that in extreme circumstances a Catholic may receive Sacramental absolution and communion from an Orthodox priest but that, going the other way, the Orthodox have been somewhat divided.

Could this lead to a real intercommunion previous to any real bid for reunion?

Unfortunately, the Orthodox have some very fringe-y groups and are not always above refusing their bishops.

For all the Orthodox to be on board with a full reunion wouldn’t it take an ecumenical council?
 
It’s such a shame we Orthodox Catholics have been stifled by the CAF admin…the migration to OC.net continues & I’m joining the crowd rather than entertain this RC nonsense any longer.
You are entitled to your opinion.
“You know it’s coming”?! How arrogant. It’s amusing to me that the RCs here can’t begin to fathom that perhaps what’s coming is that ROME refutes her years of innovations & “development” and rejoins the fold she left so many years ago. Already we’re seeing her “amend” and “adjust” and “rephrase”, trying to backtrack over things she now knows she never should have done. Hopefully she continues and eventually rejoins her family.
I’m not arrogant. Christ will it that the two will become one. Do you want to deny his prayer?
I believe our Synods have spoken pretty consistently on the matter of union. Merging 2 clubs with key differences in core beliefs just to be united in name is pointless.
It only takes a manner of time. So far the E. Orthodox at the agreed on the primacy of Pope, but how authority remains to be question
When we believe and practice the same Faith, then we will be one (and frankly at that point we won’t have to worry about “changing names” or who’s “joining who”…). Actions speak louder than words, and all this talk about “when those Orthodox are gonna submit” is just making me nauseous.
Who said anything about submitting. The consensus had to be agree upon your own bishops to agree how much the Catholic Church claims on the Pope to be true. They aren’t being forced into. Why else do they call it a dialogue? This is a process that will take time.
 
Questions:

I know that in extreme circumstances a Catholic may receive Sacramental absolution and communion from an Orthodox priest but that, going the other way, the Orthodox have been somewhat divided.

Could this lead to a real intercommunion previous to any real bid for reunion?
It could to an eventual reunion between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church. However, this process will take time. Both parties need to address the theological difference between the two Apostolic Churches.
Unfortunately, the Orthodox have some very fringe-y groups and are not always above refusing their bishops.
For all the Orthodox to be on board with a full reunion wouldn’t it take an ecumenical council?
The reunion would have to defined in an Ecumenical Council both Catholic Church and Eastern Church. That way, if there are any issues, it can be brought forth in the table.
 
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