Vatican outlaws gluten-free bread for Holy Communion

[pianistclare]

What is your purpose of being on this forum if all you do is insult our faith? All of the posts I’ve ever seen you give are almost always so rude in nature and hostile to the Church. If you don’t have anything nice to say… don’t say it! And you wonder why people generally don’t like internet atheist and/or agnostics…

I have to agree here. There is generally a profound misunderstanding of Catholicism here. Almost to the point of being purposefully argumentative.
It’s not just me noticing it.

There is nothing “heartbreaking” (gimme a break) since there is no issue. It has been handled by the Church in an appropriate and pastoral way. These with Celiac are most welcome to receive, and DO.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t get this. Gluten free items are usually made with wheat alternative such as rice or almond flour. How is wheat vs other ground seeds so magical?

Jesus held up unleavened wheat bread and commanded “Do this…” Christians obey Him. Others establish the “Church of what’s happening now” and live with the eternal consequences.

Gluten hysteria has infected modern culture. 1-2% max have gluten intolerance. This is nothing new. This is not a crisis. This is not… anything.

Anyone know where I can get gluten-free motor oil? My car has been sneezing.

 

[PJH_74]

I guess I got plenty of responses my asking “How is wheat vs other ground seeds so magical?”

My point was not to be disrespectful, however if the point of Mass is to receive the Eucharist, then why is this issue so rigid? No one here is asking for some repudiation of Consubstantiation here, just an accommodation.

 

[FrDavid96]

Jesus held up unleavened wheat bread and commanded “Do this…” Christians obey Him. Others establish the “Church of what’s happening now” and live with the eternal consequences.

Gluten hysteria has infected modern culture. 1-2% max have gluten intolerance. This is nothing new. This is not a crisis. This is not… anything.

Anyone know where I can get gluten-free motor oil? My car has been sneezing.

On the one hand I agree with you. It’s nothing new, and in many ways, society has made the issue of gluten avoidance much more of an issue than it needs to be (we don’t need “gluten warning” next to every menu item, for example).

However, I would also ask that you be a bit sensitive to those for whom gluten intolerance is a very real crisis. For them, it’s no joke.

 

[FrDavid96]

I guess I got plenty of responses my asking “How is wheat vs other ground seeds so magical?”

My point was not to be disrespectful, however if the point of Mass is to receive the Eucharist, then why is this issue so rigid? No one here is asking for some repudiation of Consubstantiation here, just an accommodation.

The answer is that gluten is a natural and necessary component of wheat flour. When the gluten is removed, the substance is no longer wheat flour, and as such can no longer be baked into wheat bread. No wheat bread means no Eucharist; because only true bread and true wine can ever be consecrated.

 

[bjames1728]

What is your purpose of being on this forum if all you do is insult our faith? All of the posts I’ve ever seen you give are almost always so rude in nature and hostile to the Church. If you don’t have anything nice to say… don’t say it! And you wonder why people generally don’t like internet atheist and/or agnostics…

While said in a flippant way, I appreciate the heart of the question. Jesus himself became frustrated with the legalists of his time when their laws interfered with people approaching God. Shouldn’t the church constantly be analyzing for itself whether the structures it has set up defend the faith or hinder people’s approach to it? Shouldn’t an apologetics forum be able to clearly defend such rules and explicate them?

As to internet agnostics, I have found on this forum that all parties are equally vicious. Case in point: this very thread has a tasteless joke about gluten free oil for a sneezing car. Having a family member awaiting an upper endoscopy after a positive blood test for celiac, I found it terribly inappropriate.

 

[on_the_hill]

If I am not mistaken, receiving Holy Communion through the Precious Blood is just as valid as the Body (via bread). It is not necessary to receive both species, correct? A celiac could drink from the cup and avoid the gluten altogether, correct?

 

[Dorothy]

If I am not mistaken, receiving Holy Communion through the Precious Blood is just as valid as the Body (via bread). It is not necessary to receive both species, correct? A celiac could drink from the cup and avoid the gluten altogether, correct?

Correct.

 

[FrDavid96]

… Shouldn’t the church constantly be analyzing for itself whether the structures it has set up defend the faith or hinder people’s approach to it? …

Yes.

And that’s exactly what the Church does do.
I’ll give examples later.

As for the topic at hand. That’s exactly what the Church is doing.

Finding a way to have low-gluten bread that is valid matter for the Eucharist is itself an example of the Church adapting to new technology (1000 years ago, no one knew about gluten, much less did anyone know how to bake low gluten bread).

My question is why do you characterize the Church as not doing something (ie adapting laws) when** that’s exactly what the Church is doing, and is doing quite well?**

This is like that annoying question “why doesn’t the Catholic Church do anything for the poor?” Which really means that the questioner doesn’t bother to first learn that the Church does considerable work indeed.

---

Obvious examples of the Church adapting laws (since you asked specifically about laws) to make the faith more accessible to people:
1917 Code of Canon Law
Allowing afternoon Masses (an exception to the 1917 Code)
1983 Code of Canon Law (why? because the old one wasn’t working anymore)
Sunday Masses on Saturday evenings
Allowing low-gluten hosts
Allowing low-alcohol wine for alcoholics
Pope Francis changing laws to make petitions for nullity less stressful
Jubilee Year giving every priest faculties to absolve from the crime of abortions
Pope Francis giving faculties to SSPX priests to hear confessions
Pope Benedict Summorum Pontificum
Pope St John Paul II allowing national bishops conferences more control over Holy Days
Restoring the permanent diaconate
Allowing people to substitute some other form of penance for meatless Fridays
Reducing the Communion fast from midnight to 3 hours, then to 1 hour
Vatican directives calling for handicap accessible entrances to churches
Pope Francis “Missionaries of Mercy” dispatched during the Jubilee
Vatican website–adapting information dissemination to changing times
Pope St John Paul II appointing international Cardinals, especially from the global South

 

[Padres1969]

The answer is that gluten is a natural and necessary component of wheat flour. When the gluten is removed, the substance is no longer wheat flour, and as such can no longer be baked into wheat bread. No wheat bread means no Eucharist; because only true bread and true wine can ever be consecrated.

Indeed. I see this as being no different than Wine v Grape Juice. Both are grape products, but only one can be confected into Eucharist.

 

[DeniseNY]

I have to agree here. There is generally a profound misunderstanding of Catholicism here. Almost to the point of being purposefully argumentative.
It’s not just me noticing it.

There is nothing “heartbreaking” (gimme a break) since there is no issue. It has been handled by the Church in an appropriate and pastoral way. These with Celiac are most welcome to receive, and DO.

I agree, and it’s certainly not just you who notices it.

 

[FrDavid96]

Indeed. I see this as being no different than Wine v Grape Juice. Both are grape products, but only one can be confected into Eucharist.

Sure.

Same idea.

We can remove non-essentials (like the grape seeds), but what is essential must be there, at least in minimal form.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Indeed. I see this as being no different than Wine v Grape Juice. Both are grape products, but only one can be confected into Eucharist.

I can see Catholics and Orthodox saying such is a MUST, but are all Episcopalians on your page on this? I ask because a church in communion with yours and the Anglican Communion recently stated that they COULD use grape juice as a substitute, without batting an eye. No one, except Catholics and Orthodox in that region, refuted such a claim, in regard to their own Liturgical celebration.

 

[Padres1969]

I can see Catholics and Orthodox saying such is a MUST, but are all Episcopalians on your page on this? I ask because a church in communion with yours and the Anglican Communion recently stated that they COULD use grape juice as a substitute, without batting an eye. No one, except Catholics and Orthodox in that region, refuted such a claim, in regard to their own Liturgical celebration.

As far as I know yes. Only wine is used by Episcopalians.

episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/wine-0

As to a church we’re in communion with the AC that uses grape juice, who would that be?

 

[SyroMalankara]

As far as I know yes. Only wine is used by Episcopalians.

episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/wine-0

As to a church we’re in communion with the AC that uses grape juice, who would that be?

The Marthoma Syrian Church in India – seems along with other practices, they’ve adopted the Methodist/low-church view on alcohol being a cause of sin; even in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

utrechter-union.org/seite/257/175th_anniversary_of_the_reforma

thetablet.co.uk/news/1105/0/catholic-church-in-india-hits-out-at-potential-communion-wine-ban-

madhyamam.com/en/kerala/2014/aug/25/differing-voices-church-over-banning-wine

indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/bishop-asks-churches-to-rethink-need-for-wine-in-mass/

 

[Padres1969]

The Marthoma Syrian Church in India – seems along with other practices, they’ve adopted the Methodist/low-church view on alcohol being a cause of sin; even in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

utrechter-union.org/seite/257/175th_anniversary_of_the_reforma

thetablet.co.uk/news/1105/0/catholic-church-in-india-hits-out-at-potential-communion-wine-ban-

madhyamam.com/en/kerala/2014/aug/25/differing-voices-church-over-banning-wine

indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/bishop-asks-churches-to-rethink-need-for-wine-in-mass/

A couple of things. First it only appears they’re discussing Grape Juice in the
Mar Thoma Syrian church in lieu of wine if wine is legally banned in their region in churches. And it appears such a ban is a misinterpretation of the law. Second, it doesn’t appear their own leaders are ok with it on the whole with more than half their bishops rejecting the notion. Third, the Episcopal Church has been in communion with them since 1958. And even then communion only implies we recognize each other as part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church sharing the essentials of the Christian faith. Its not a specific comment on a change to an independent church that has not even occurred yet.

As for Episcopalians it remains wine, and only wine.

 

[FrDavid96]

As far as I know yes. Only wine is used by Episcopalians.

episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/wine-0

As to a church we’re in communion with the AC that uses grape juice, who would that be?

This seems to leave the door open to using something other than wheat bread and grape wine:

Following a widespread and ancient tradition, congregations of the Episcopal Church use bread made from wheat and wine made from grapes. Other sources of bread and wine may be more appropriate in other cultures.
episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/eucharistic-elements

This document here
anglicancommunion.org/media/42392/ialc_report_on_elements_used_in_communion.pdf

says this
The reasons for substitution include allergies, concern for alcoholics, cost, desire to
avoid alcohol, unavailability, legal situation.
Commodities substituted include rice or gluten-free bread, grape juice, de-alcoholised
wine, biscuit, round cake, Coca-Cola, Fanta, banana juice, pineapple or passion fruit
wine, raisins boiled in water with a little sugar added, rice cakes etc.

I’m not making this up. I’m reading it from the Anglican Communion’s own website.

 

[SyroMalankara]

A couple of things. First it only appears they’re discussing Grape Juice in the
Mar Thoma Syrian church in lieu of wine if wine is legally banned in their region in churches. And it appears such a ban is a misinterpretation of the law. Second, it doesn’t appear their own leaders are ok with it on the whole with more than half their bishops rejecting the notion. Third, the Episcopal Church has been in communion with them since 1958. And even then communion only implies we recognize each other as part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church sharing the essentials of the Christian faith. Its not a specific comment on a change to an independent church that has not even occurred yet.

As for Episcopalians it remains wine, and only wine.

What makes you think half of the Marthoma Syrian Church bishops reject the idea? Wine is not banned in the region, in fact, the idea was brought up by a certain segment of non-Christian politicians. Instead of siding with the bishops of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches, stating, wine is required in our worship, the MSC bishop suggested abiding by the proposed ban. They have in fact, already implemented the grape juice practice - how do I know, a good percentage of the non-Catholic/non-Orthodox sides of my family are members and clergy. At what point does the “communion” relationship strain? It was verbally fractured (still holding on) the last few years regarding the usually discussed movements made in the Episcopal and ACC.

 

[bjames1728]

My question is why do you characterize the Church as not doing something (ie adapting laws) when** that’s exactly what the Church is doing, and is doing quite well?**

I’m not accusing the church of anything. This is a line of argument I would anticipate from my non-Catholic family members. It’s the same line of argument that post #3 put forward, if somewhat crassly. Hence my comment that an open apologetics forum should not dismiss even hostile people out of hand as irrelevant.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m not accusing the church of anything. This is a line of argument I would anticipate from my non-Catholic family members. It’s the same line of argument that post #3 put forward, if somewhat crassly. Hence my comment that an open apologetics forum should not dismiss even hostile people out of hand as irrelevant.

I misunderstood your words. My apologies.

At least I gave you some material you might use. Feel free.