Vatican permits use of COVID-19 vaccines made using aborted foetal tissue

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I disagree with that. The cells currently used are derived from the original cell, but I would only class the original cells as being stolen from the baby.
 
Both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines contain HEK293. They don’t conclusively know if during the quality assurance process, that the products remain or not.

The Charlotte Lozier Institute then coined the phrase “confirmatory testing,” which was interpreted to indicate that the HEK293 cells were only used in a onetime test, making the vaccine seem more ethical than vaccines grown in fetal cell lines continuously. However, this is only speculation. Although the USCCB and many other Catholic organizations have unfortunately repeated this undefined, unsupported and unexplained phrase as the reason the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines are ethically uncontroversial, the details of quality-control testing are not yet known. To emphasize: We do not yet know.
 
MikeInVA said:
This would have been an opportune moment for the Church to push for ethical drug research, but I think she has moved in the other direction.
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The opposite is actually the case. The Pontifical Academy of the Sciences has been instrumental in promoting the research of adult and umbilical/placental stem cells as an ethical alternative. It has had so much success that many researchers turn to these sources rather than fetal stem cells as adult and umbilical stem cells are much more plentiful and actually cheaper to harvest than fetal stem cell tissue. Through the PAS influence, adult stem cells (from bone marrow) have become the cornerstone for regenerative therapies because the treatment can be formulated from the patient’s own cells.

The only reason that the drug manufacturers still use the fetal stem cell cultures is because they do not need to purchase new materials to sustain a new project since all they have to do is feed the culture which they have been growing since the 70s and 80s.
 
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Your reply supports mine. The Catholic Church should have used this as a chance to make a statement - that using aborted cells, no matter how old, is wrong, and there are practical alternatives. If the religious leader of a quarter of the world’s population had said “no” to these tainted vaccines we might have seen a change, or at least a discussion. The discussion is over for now and aborted babies lost.
 
Wampa said:
I have to admit, I’m super confused now. After hearing a consistent message for a while here in the U.S. (from the USCCB and the National Catholic Bioethics Center) that the key distinction is “used in the design/development/production” (e.g. AstraZeneca) vs. “only used in testing” (e.g. Pfizer, Moderna), the Vatican guidance seems to wipe away that distinction without even referencing its existence.
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As usual, the Vatican is right. Those who make that distinction are overthinking it, splitting hairs, and missing the fundamental moral argument. The distinction between those two cases has an emotional or visceral appeal, but the morality is the same.

The object common to both is the continuing use of aborted human cell lines. This is an offense against human dignity, no matter whether the cells are used for basic research, testing/development, or production.

The intention common to both is to save lives. A vaccine which is not available cannot save lives, regardless of whether it was halted in testing/development or in production. Vaccine development is a sequential process which goes no faster than the slowest step and only succeeds if every step succeeds.

I applaud the Vatican for its focus on the elements of morality and not getting distracted by superfluous technical details.
 
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goodguy2342 said:
Both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines contain HEK293.
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No, neither Pfizer or Moderna vaccines contain HEK293.

There were tests done, in labs, using the Moderna mRNA vaccines and HEK293 derived cells to test them by research partners.

HEK293 cell lines are NOT used in the production process at all. In fact, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are produced without using ANY cell lines at all, of any kind.
 
Canvas said:
No, neither Pfizer or Moderna vaccines contain HEK293.

There were tests done, in labs, using the Moderna mRNA vaccines and HEK293 derived cells to test them by research partners.

HEK293 cell lines are NOT used in the production process at all. In fact, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are produced without using ANY cell lines at all, of any kind.
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This the problem with the calls to boycott anything that ever touched anything that ever touched something that was involved in abortion. How attenuated can the connection be and still matter? The Church says this connection is sufficiently remote, but that is not good enough for some, apparently.

What about buying a car from a company that supports Planned Parenthood? That is a much more direct connection, in my opinion. What about a car that was manufactured by someone who procured an abortion? Is that enough? Can you buy a house from someone who supports SSM? Can you use a drycleaner whose owners support abortion?

The Church’s view is that these kinds of connections are too attenuated. I think that should be good enough for Catholics.
 
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TMC said:
This the problem with the calls to boycott anything that every touched anything that ever touched something that was involved in abortion. How attenuated can the connection be and still matter? The Church says this connection is sufficiently remote, but that is not good enough for some, apparently.

What about buying a car from a company that supports Planned Parenthood?
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We have had many threads on here from people who are concerned about buying from companies that donate to PP or otherwise support abortion in some way, and we generally give them the guidance regarding formal and material cooperation that is set forth by Catholic Answers’ apologist here:


Some people go further than the Church requires, and refuse to do any business with companies who are on record as providing any sort of support to PP or other problematic charities. That’s their prerogative, but it is going beyond what is considered necessary by the Church. It also gets difficult at some point because we don’t have perfect visibility into every company’s philanthropy and you’re also likely to be boycotting a lot of stuff, given that many many companies will indirectly be funding PP and similar by contributing to some umbrella charity like United Way or matching donations given by employees. At some point, boycotting every such company will become a hardship and may not have any effect on the company’s behavior.
 
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There is virtually no way to avoid remote material cooperation.

One simple example:

One area pharmacy where I get prescription drugs? That pharmacy surely also dispenses oral contraceptives. They probably have abortion drugs as well.

A few rows down from the vitamins and supplements? Racks of condoms.

The store is also open all day on Sunday.

There are magazine and tabloid covers with people dressed immodestly.

That is just an example of one store.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Some people go further than the Church requires, and refuse to do any business with companies who are on record as providing any sort of support to PP or other problematic charities. That’s their prerogative, but it is going beyond what is considered necessary by the Church.
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I agree with this, but I do not think it appropriate for those folks to suggest that their personal choice is the only moral choice, or the choice mandated by the Church. It is particularly wrong to suggest that Catholics refrain from a potentially life saving vaccine on that basis.
Tis_Bearself said:
It also gets difficult at some point because we don’t have perfect visibility into every company’s philanthropy and you’re also likely to be boycotting a lot of stuff, given that many many companies will indirectly be funding PP and similar by contributing to some umbrella charity like United Way or matching donations given by employees. At some point, boycotting every such company will become a hardship and may not have any effect on the company’s behavior.
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Yes, with the added issue that virtually every large company is going to turn out to be involved with something that clashes with one’s own moral positions. The only way to avoid that issue is to live like the Amish, and I don’t think even that works. Of course, some of the folks advocating boycotting this or that realize that, which leads me to wonder what their motivation is in picking on one thing to boycott over all the others.

All of which leads me to believe that these calls for boycotts (left and right) are rarely about changing corporate behavior - they are about virtue signalling and other in-group dynamics.
 
TMC said:
I do not think it appropriate for those folks to suggest that their personal choice is the only moral choice, or the choice mandated by the Church. It is particularly wrong to suggest that Catholics refrain from a potentially life saving vaccine on that basis.
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^ This. I am in full agreement with the CDF regarding this issue.

It bothers me greatly that there are Catholics trying to guilt others into avoiding getting themselves and their family vaccinated in what is an exceptionally grave situation.

I would love to have medicines and products that are not tainted with any immoral or unethical dealings, but unfortunately those are hard to find.

How many things in our houses were made in east asian sweatshops, just to take one example?
 
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TMC said:
but I do not think it appropriate for those folks to suggest that their personal choice is the only moral choice, or the choice mandated by the Church. It is particularly wrong to suggest that Catholics refrain from a potentially life saving vaccine on that basis.
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Hey, I don’t like it either, but when it comes to opinions, everybody’s got one and usually not shy about sharing it.
I’m not really interested in anybody’s opinion other than the official positions of the Church (which in USA means the Vatican, and the USCCB whose opinion is based on the reports of the Catholic and pro-life bioethics expert organizations) on these type matters.
 
I’m sorry, then what exactly is the point of the Magisterium? If the CDF can’t come out and say “This is right” correctly, and instead I have to pick between two different groups of bishops, what’s the point? Why should Bishop Schneider be able to overrule the CDF? Why should his disagreement with the CDF over a moral issue be given precedence?

Why do we bother to listen to the Vatican?
 
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Great. How about my other questions? When the CDF makes a pronouncement and a second group of bishops says something in direct contradiction, who do I listen to?
 
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TMC said:
virtually every large company is going to turn out to be involved with something that clashes with one’s own moral positions
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If Christians would support small business, there would be more options available, compatible with Christian values. I don’t mean the Mom and Pop store would develop a vaccine, but consumer values would reflect upwards on some decisions, not all, of large corporations.
 
Do you have supporting lit?

I must have misunderstand based on my travels. I did see it state the above.
 
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