Vatican Policy on Homosexual Seminarians Due Tomorrow?

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tossolul:
Homosexuality is a sin…
Actually, it is not. It is a disorder.
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tossolul:
Whether you are heterosexual, or homosexual you have the same chance of being tempted by the sin of lust. The only difference is that in being homosexual they would be sinning if they lived out their lives following their desires where as heterosexuals wouldn’t…
The fact that a person’s sexual desires are for the opposite sex does not by itself make acting on those desires virtuous. Presumably the point you are trying to make is that it is possible for sexual activity between a man and woman to be good under certain conditions, whereas sexual activity between two men (or two women) is always wrong. Please be a little more careful.
 
First off, “homos” is an offensive term to some- please do not use it here.
oat soda:
gay priests will confuse the faithful on why the church requires celibacy for most of its priests. it gives the impression that only gays or eunichs become priests and this scares away young men interested in the priesthood.
No one should know the priest’s sexuality- he is a man- that is all people need be concerned about. He should look, talk, and act like a man. No drag queen priests or anything like that, but many- probably most- men who struggle with homosexuality don’t show it- and I have also known some rather effiminate heterosexual men as well. Furthermore, young men who would be scared off by a rumor that there are gay people or eunuchs in the priesthood just need to grow up. Any homosexual man who would check other men out shouldn’t be in the priesthood anyway- the chaste homosexuals won’t do that.
besides, look at all of the trouble homo-priests have brought to the church. they did it to themselves. if there was no sex abuse crisis, maybe homos would be able to be priests.
Those priests were unfaithful to the Church. The bishops were unfaithful to the Church by moving the priests around rather than helping them or removing them. I don’t think statistics mean much- priests did not have as much access to girls as they did to boys, and often things were swept under the rug instead of dealt with, because such crimes were so taboo- and the priest never got help or was reprimanded (until the scandal broke out- if he was even still alive).

the bottom line is it doesn’t matter what you or i think. but i’m sure the document will pretty much bar homos from the priesthood. we’ll just have to wait and see.
oat soda:
a man who isn’t sexually attracted to women will not be a good leader and the sacrifice of giving up marriage and a wife is necessary to be a good priest.
I suppose then that married Byzantine priests, or married anglican priests who convert and become Catholic priests are not good priests.
 
I am a little confused. It seems like the sweep on seminaries is something still being thought out. But I know a priest personally who has already been chosen as one of the men who is going to check out the seminaries for suspicious behavior. In fact, I think he has already started on it. :confused:
 
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Pentecost2005:
Actually, it is not. It is a disorder.

The fact that a person’s sexual desires are for the opposite sex does not by itself make acting on those desires virtuous. Presumably the point you are trying to make is that it is possible for sexual activity between a man and woman to be good under certain conditions, whereas sexual activity between two men (or two women) is always wrong. Please be a little more careful.
Thank you for taking the time to correct me. You’re right I wasn’t as careful in proofreading as I should have been before posting…I guess I assumed you would be able to get the point behind what I was trying to say. :o
 
:banghead:

Wow!,
Given this subject matter and in the condition of our society today, it’s plain that there is a underlaying movement to justify homosexuality and its union there in. Sex with someone of the same sex **is ** an “abomination”. It goes against natural law and devine law and every other law except here in America…where anything goes. “If a person believes that what they do is right then nothing will be wrong…therefore sins don’t really exist…right”???
WRONG

It’s pretty clear that it was wrong, is wrong and will & should always be wrong. Lets see if I got it right:
“I’m a thief and a killer…but because I’m human and therefore imperfect…I shouldn’t be barred from running a nursing home or driving a school bus?” No I’m not saying that gays are killers…but there’s certain jobs I wouldn’t want them doing. Not because of quification but on moral grounds. If you allow gays to be preists, then what else will be next: Gay sex would be ok? Oral sex would be ok? Condoms would be ok? Premaritial sex would be ok? Incest would be ok? Prostitution would be ok? and ofcourse “Gay Marriage”…hmmm

Maybe it’s time to be Catholic Christians and not something else! Live by Gods laws, not make God work for us.

Scott

Deu 1:17 You shall not be partial in judgment. You shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not be intimidated by anyone, for the judgment is God’s. And the case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.’
Deu 22:5 "A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
Deu 28:15 Israel, today I am giving you the laws and teachings of the LORD your God. And if you don’t obey them all, he will put many curses on you.
Deu 28:21 The LORD will send terrible diseases to attack you, and you will never be well again. You will suffer with burning fever and swelling and pain until you die somewhere in the land that you captured. The LORD will make the sky overhead seem like a bronze roof that keeps out the rain, and the ground under your feet will become as hard as iron. Your crops will be scorched by the hot east wind or ruined by mildew.
Deu 28:61 Remember! If the LORD decides to destroy your nation, he can use any disease or disaster, not just the ones written in The Book of God’s Law.
 
Fr. Richard Neuhaus, in First Things, says that there is a major visitation underway to 160 Catholic seminaries and houses of formation, which began in late Sept. and will be completed by early MAY '06. … The visitors will look at everything being taught and done in the seminaries,… with most particular reference to celibacy. … No doubt some have exaggerated the incidence of homosexual orientation or activity among Catholic clergy, but more than 80& of the relatively small number of priests involved in sex abuse were involved with post-pubescent boys and young men… and there is no doubt about the hundreds of prieste, seminarians and ex-seminarians who testify to the existence of “gay-friendly” institutions powerfully influenced, if not dominated, by"lavendar mafias."l
 
Wow!,
Given this subject matter and in the condition of our society today, it’s plain that there is a underlaying movement to justify homosexuality and its union there in. Sex with someone of the same sex **is ** an “abomination”. It goes against natural law and devine law and every other law except here in America…where anything goes. “If a person believes that what they do is right then nothing will be wrong…therefore sins don’t really exist…right”???
WRONG

It’s pretty clear that it was wrong, is wrong and will & should always be wrong. Lets see if I got it right:
“I’m a thief and a killer…but because I’m human and therefore imperfect…I shouldn’t be barred from running a nursing home or driving a school bus?” No I’m not saying that gays are killers…but there’s certain jobs I wouldn’t want them doing. Not because of quification but on moral grounds. If you allow gays to be preists, then what else will be next: Gay sex would be ok? Oral sex would be ok? Condoms would be ok? Premaritial sex would be ok? Incest would be ok? Prostitution would be ok? and ofcourse “Gay Marriage”…hmmm

Maybe it’s time to be Catholic Christians and not something else! Live by Gods laws, not make God work for us.

Scott

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I am going to assume you were referring to my comments…

I did not say being an active gay priest is right. I said that there are people who are born with SSA- they have no control over this…it is something they are born with. It is a cross for them to carry. I think the people who have SSA and realize it is not in line with God to live out their lives in such a way, but instead choose to live a life following God are in deed carrying Jesus’ cross. They are walking the narrow road to heaven, instead of the broad road of the flesh. I think that through struggle, sacrifice, and suffering we become closer to God…and therefor believe that many of these people that I described have a great deal to offer to God’s family.

You somehow seem to have taken my statements to mean that any Gay person should become a priest. That was not how I intended my thoughts to come across. WHat I meant is that a person who is born with same sex attraction has a choice to make. They have to choose if they are going to give into their fleshly desires, or follow God’s word that clearly states such a lifestyle to be out of line with Him. These people who take that leap of faith, and realize that they need to sacrifice their physical desires in order to be in line with God are truelly walking with Jesus. THe thing is we are not perfect, and people fail, and fall. The person however who gives everything up for God, is his true follower- it does not matter if that everything includes a man or a woman.

I am not condoning homosexuality. I am only saying that for some people it is not a choice. They can not change, and therefor the only choice they have is sacrifice. They should not be excluded from becoming priests. THey should be prayed for, as well as all priests currently struggling. Prayer is what is needed, not condemnation.

God bless.
 
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tossolul:
Just some thoughts…

Give until it hurts…Give of your time, your gifts, your knowledge, your money. It is when you think you have no more to give, that the Giving has actually begun.

Support the Church…and it will support you when you are the one being judged.
I do support the Church, often until it hurts. However, giving to the diocese and supporting improper diocesan programs and procedures does not equate to giving to the Church. I equate it with giving your faith away. I support authentic Catholic teaching and authentic Catholic groups that do works of mercy.
 
tossolul,

“WHat I meant is that a person who is born with same sex attraction has a choice to make. They have to choose if they are going to give into their fleshly desires, or follow God’s word that clearly states such a lifestyle to be out of line with Him.”

Why do people think that every facet of life, work and church is open to corruption. The choice to make is not to be priests. Leave the sanctity of the Church alone. Leave the sanctity of marriage alone. I believe that people are not born gay. People can be born with slightly more opposite sex traits, but that doesn’t mean “Gay”. Homosexual thoughts come from the perverted society we created and allow every day. When “we” say that being gay is “who you are, and thats ok”, we in affect condone that activity. You might think “I don’t think it’s right”, but your inaction speaks louder then your words. I will respect gay people. But I will not condone or support or teach its “ok”. Laying with another of the same sex is WRONG.

Yes, pray for them. Definitely. “They should not be excluded from becoming priests.” I respectfully disagree.

Maybe in this political world of yours; thats wrong to say. Perhaps it’s time to return to the Orthodoxy of faith and God…and principles!

Scott

P.S. Another point in time where the Roman Catholic Church had to purge itself of “less effective”, “improperly trained” priests was shortly after the Reformation…history does repeat itself.
 
to me it seems that you think heterosexual priests have never sinned or wanted to sin. A person who has SSA is tempted to sin just like any heterosexual priest is tempted- that is different than being outright Gay, and acting on the temptation.

We all have our struggles with different sins, but if a person makes a vow of chastity and consecrates their life to God…to me there is no reason why they should not be allowed to become a priest. THey have to go through schooling, and they have improved the programs in it to teach better…if they can make it through the improved schooling and they pass…who are we to judge them for the crosses they are bearing?

It seems were confusing the priests who actually didn’t resist the temptation and fell- to a person who simply has SSA, but wants to live a life in line with God by sacrificing that desire and serving Him.

This has nothing to do with me advocating homosexual lifestyles. I believe it very wrong to live a life of such…but these people who want to become priests are not living out their homosexual desires, but instead are doing Good work for God. I believe it is very dangerous to catagorize people like we are trying to do. They are all individuals- each having something different to offer God, some will fall to their sins, but some may be the ones who have the Greatest of Gifts to offer our church. It is the screening process that needs to be more closely looked at- but it should not catagorize and hold prejudices.
 
Well I hope your right. Lets all pray on it. Maybe then the answer will become clear. I hope the Church officals get it right.

Scott
 
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tossolul:
This has nothing to do with me advocating homosexual lifestyles. I believe it very wrong to live a life of such…but these people who want to become priests are not living out their homosexual desires, but instead are doing Good work for God. I believe it is very dangerous to catagorize people like we are trying to do. They are all individuals- each having something different to offer God, some will fall to their sins, but some may be the ones who have the Greatest of Gifts to offer our church. It is the screening process that needs to be more closely looked at- but it should not catagorize and hold prejudices.
:amen:

Thank you.
 
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tossolul:
to me it seems that you think heterosexual priests have never sinned or wanted to sin. A person who has SSA is tempted to sin just like any heterosexual priest is tempted- that is different than being outright Gay, and acting on the temptation.

We all have our struggles with different sins, but if a person makes a vow of chastity and consecrates their life to God…to me there is no reason why they should not be allowed to become a priest. THey have to go through schooling, and they have improved the programs in it to teach better…if they can make it through the improved schooling and they pass…who are we to judge them for the crosses they are bearing?

It seems were confusing the priests who actually didn’t resist the temptation and fell- to a person who simply has SSA, but wants to live a life in line with God by sacrificing that desire and serving Him.

This has nothing to do with me advocating homosexual lifestyles. I believe it very wrong to live a life of such…but these people who want to become priests are not living out their homosexual desires, but instead are doing Good work for God. I believe it is very dangerous to catagorize people like we are trying to do. They are all individuals- each having something different to offer God, some will fall to their sins, but some may be the ones who have the Greatest of Gifts to offer our church. It is the screening process that needs to be more closely looked at- but it should not catagorize and hold prejudices.
If they can go through the “schooling” and make a vow of chastity and obedience to God which they can live out, then there is no need for them to identify themselves as as “gay” or having SSA.
 
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tossolul:
This has nothing to do with me advocating homosexual lifestyles. I believe it very wrong to live a life of such…but these people who want to become priests are not living out their homosexual desires, but instead are doing Good work for God.
How do you know this? Obviously, there are many that did not have this intention and many that later determined not to operate on that intention. I say that regarding both homosexual priests and heterodox priests. Both have done grave damage to the mystical body of Christ. No more.
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tossolul:
I believe it is very dangerous to catagorize people like we are trying to do. They are all individuals- each having something different to offer God, some will fall to their sins, but some may be the ones who have the Greatest of Gifts to offer our church. It is the screening process that needs to be more closely looked at- but it should not catagorize and hold prejudices.
It is very dangersous to continue to all the homsexual subculture in the priesthood to continue unabated. This includes those that declare themselves homosexual, those that hide their homosexuality but act out on it, and those that sympathize with the homosexuals and their subculture to the extend that they preach against the moral teachings of the church, albeit in an often deceptive manner.
 
Good thing we are not the ones in charge of making this discision. 🙂

I will pray that God directs the ones who truly are in charge the right way.
 
tossolul,
I agree with your final comment. I wouldn’t want to be the official who has to publicly defend/explain the document. I do however, think you should consider the distinct and likely possibility that homosexual attraction is a pyschological, not genetic, disorder. When you say ‘born with homosexual attraction’, you’re making an assumption that homosexual orientation is something genetically ingrained in a person, which is not the case as much scientific research shows. Remember the teaching that ‘homosexuality is intrinsically evil’ - it cannot be ordered to God. It is a disorder, a disposition toward sin, an affliction. As members of the Mystical Body, we must ask, “Do we ought to ordain a man suffering from this affliction?”

As far a screening process goes, one should already be in place. Categorizations will undoubtedly occur, but categorizations are not prejudices.
 
I guess I have read and heard, and witnessed differently. Yes there are some people out there who choose the homosexual lifestyle…but I believe there ARE some for whom genetics does play a definate role. It is not a choice for these people, but a curse- as many of them refer to it as. It is these people who realize this, and wish they could fit in with societies norms- but realize it would be living a lie that then choose chasity so they can stay in line with God. It is these people who sacrifice the greatest of physical sacrifices for God that are in my mind very much glorifying him despite and because of this specific ‘curse’/ cross they have to bare. I believe there are these people in the priest hood today- but we will never know who they are…because they are truly Good people who want to serve God, and would never flaunt their sexual preference for attention, but instead humble themselves to our God and Father. They only want him to have the attention, Glory, and praise- not themselves . They do not look for praise of the Good they have done despite the hardships/crosses they have bore. and It is these very same people that may in the not so distant future be told that they are not allowed to carry this cross any longer. Where do they go then? If someone is truly trying to live a Good life, the only way they feel led to do so, and they are then turned away- can we see that we are then responsible for leading them to sin? How can you truly turn someone like this away?

Yes homosexual behaviour is a sin/evil…but these people are giving that up for God. To me it seems they are doing the Right thing.
 
Its an interesting topic. One of the members of the APA who fought to have homosexuality removed from their list of disorders has since recanted, basing his decision on 30 years of successfully treating people who have suffered from this ‘curse’ (I think its an apt descriptor).

tossolul, I fully empathize with your feelings; it is not happy time for the Church Militant. Yet I am reminded of the phrase: “Giving Scandal & Occasions of Sin”. As members of the Mystical Body, we must act knowing that our behaviour impacts the entire communion. We thus have an responsibility to ensure we do not bring ignominy upon our brothers & sisters by either ‘giving scandal’ or placing ourselves in ‘occasions of sin’. A person who enters the priesthood with an affliction like homosexuality, places us all at risk.

When a person enters into their vocation, be it marriage, a chaste single life, religious devotion or the priesthood, they must all serve God and as Christ says, be born again. We renounce sin and consecrate the entirity of our lives to Christ. To enter into any of these lives in an honest manner, you cannot knowingly suffer from an unhealthy inclination to sin. If you agree that the homosexual act is a grave sin, as any sexual act outside of marriage is, then you have to consider whether someone who has a propensity toward a specific sin is a suitable candidate for undertaking any vocation, not just the priesthood. To fulfill a vocation, you must consecrate yourself to God, of which confronting and treating sinful dispositions is part and parcel. Now if someone has done so and discerns a vocation to the cloth, then no one is preventing them from entering into a seminary. It is those who do not who will be/are turned away.
 
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harinkj:
Actually in Massachusetts wouldn’t they be sacrificing marriage?
  • Kathie :bowdown:
No, because the same-sex civil marriages in Massachusetts are not sacramental in any shape or form. As any faithful Catholic knows, same-sex marriage is truly an impossibility whether the law recognizes it or not. I live in Massachusetts and know several gays who have had civil marriages but I know deep down that these aren’t real marriages. You can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.
 
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