VATICAN - Pope encourages the growth of cooperatives as an economic model that serves the common good [AN]

[graciew]

Jacques Maritain spoke of replacing the wage system with a system where workers would instead share in the profit of the company they work for, such as becoming share holders. Wouldn’t this make more economic sense and result in better distribution of wealth? That way they would be owners, nor mere employees, would have a direct interest in the success of their company, and would work harder.

I’m not sure if cooperatives can work because some people just don’t want to share.

God knows where my Jacques Maritain books are but I will pick your idea up and read. Thanks !

 

[estesbob]

I think Pope Francis has a really clear sociological imagination and he really wants us to see what he is seeing as the path forward in a catholic way. I say catholic with a small c to mean that without having to destroy our unique cultures in doing so… we are capable of having a universality in economic structures around the world.

How? And how would this fit in with the Churches doctrine of Subsidiarity?

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by LongingSoul
I think Pope Francis has a really clear sociological imagination and he really wants us to see what he is seeing as the path forward in a catholic way. I say catholic with a small c to mean that without having to destroy our unique cultures in doing so… we are capable of having a universality in economic structures around the world.

Well universality in the same sense that the family model is universal too. A mother, a father and children. That model can safely be held as the blueprint for optimal human development. So even if circumstances prevent some people from having this experience of the family, that singular model of family must be maintained as a universal institution.

Hence the sense of St JPIIs comment that* “As the family goes, so goes the nation and so goes the whole world in which we live.”*

I believe that Pope Francis in calling for the cooperative model of economy is proposing it as a universal model of economy and in a sense reaffirming ‘the tribe’ as the optimal environment to nurture the common good and for humans to experience worth.

 

[estesbob]

Well universality in the same sense that the family model is universal too. A mother, a father and children. That model can safely be held as the blueprint for optimal human development. So even if circumstances prevent some people from having this experience of the family, that singular model of family must be maintained as a universal institution.

Hence the sense of St JPIIs comment that* “As the family goes, so goes the nation and so goes the whole world in which we live.”*

I believe that Pope Francis in calling for the cooperative model of economy is proposing it as a universal model of economy and in a sense reaffirming ‘the tribe’ as the optimal environment to nurture the common good and for humans to experience worth.

So we are going to get rid of govt and all join tribes?

 

[LongingSoul]

So we are going to get rid of govt and all join tribes?

No not getting rid of government, but where government acts in service to a cooperative economic model rather than building the economic model around the principles of capital and wealth accumulation. Pope Francis listed five suggestions for consideration the first being…

**In view of this, Francis articulated “some concrete encouragements”.

“The first one is for cooperatives to continue to be the lever that raises and develops the weakest part of local communities and civil society. For this, we must give priority to the establishment of new cooperative enterprises, along with the further development of existing ones, in order to create new job opportunities, especially now where none exist. Our thoughts must go first to young people, because we know that youth unemployment, which is so high, destroys their hope. We should also think about who are left jobless too soon. In addition to new enterprises, let us also look at those businesses that are in difficulty, those that old businessmen would let die but which can be revived with initiatives that you call ‘Workers buy out’ ‘empresas recuperadas’, ‘aziende salvate’.”**

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe talk to Janet Yellen who might change Fed policy to provide capital necessary to stimulate employment of youth?

 

[estesbob]

No not getting rid of government, but where government acts in service to a cooperative economic model rather than building the economic model around the principles of capital and wealth accumulation. Pope Francis listed five suggestions for consideration the first being…

**In view of this, Francis articulated “some concrete encouragements”.

“The first one is for cooperatives to continue to be the lever that raises and develops the weakest part of local communities and civil society. For this, we must give priority to the establishment of new cooperative enterprises, along with the further development of existing ones, in order to create new job opportunities, especially now where none exist. Our thoughts must go first to young people, because we know that youth unemployment, which is so high, destroys their hope. We should also think about who are left jobless too soon. In addition to new enterprises, let us also look at those businesses that are in difficulty, those that old businessmen would let die but which can be revived with initiatives that you call ‘Workers buy out’ ‘empresas recuperadas’, ‘aziende salvate’.”**

So the Pope was really breaking no new ground here. He’s talking about the Catholic doctrine of subsidiarity. . He is talking about cooperatives at at the local level . . A level where they have indeed been very effective and work best when there is little or no government involvement

 

[LongingSoul]

So the Pope was really breaking no new ground here. He’s talking about the Catholic doctrine of subsidiarity. . He is talking about cooperatives at at the local level . . A level where they have indeed been very effective and work best when there is little or no government involvement

estesbob, I think you are just being too lazy to read the article now. He obviously wants nations and the world to adopt the cooperative ethos in order to address some of the appalling cracks that many slip through. Unemployment rates especially in youth. Corporate greed and the insane rape of the environment for money. Obesity and starvation anomalies. Crazy, outrageous ideals that don’t reflect Gods purposes.

**“If it is genuine, if it wants to play a strong social role, if it wants to be a player in the future of a nation and of each local community, the cooperative economy must pursue transparent and clear aims. It must promote the economy of honesty! A healing economy in the treacherous sea of the global economy. A real economy promoted by people who have only the common good in their hearts and minds.”

Finally, the cooperative movement “cannot remain uninvolved with social and economic globalisation, whose effects reach into every country, even into our homes. But do cooperatives participate in globalisation like other enterprises? Is there an original way for cooperatives to face the new challenges of the global market? How can cooperatives participate in the development of cooperation whilst safeguarding the principles of solidarity and justice? I am saying this to you so that I can say it all the cooperatives in the world: cooperatives cannot remain locked up at home, nor can they leave home as if they were not cooperatives. We must have the courage and imagination to build the right way to integrate development, justice and peace in the world.”**

 

[estesbob]

estesbob, I think you are just being too lazy to read the article now. He obviously wants nations and the world to adopt the cooperative ethos in order to address some of the appalling cracks that many slip through. Unemployment rates especially in youth. Corporate greed and the insane rape of the environment for money. Obesity and starvation anomalies. Crazy, outrageous ideals that don’t reflect Gods purposes.
"If it is genuine, if it wants to play a strong social role, if it wants to be a player in the future of a nation and of each local community, the cooperative economy must pursue transparent and clear aims. It must promote the economy of honesty! A healing economy in the treacherous sea of the global economy. A real economy promoted by people who have only the common good in their hearts and minds."
Finally, the cooperative movement "cannot remain uninvolved with social and economic globalisation, whose effects reach into every country, even into our homes. But do cooperatives participate in globalisation like other enterprises? Is there an original way for cooperatives to face the new challenges of the global market? How can cooperatives participate in the development of cooperation whilst safeguarding the principles of solidarity and justice? I am saying this to you so that I can say it all the cooperatives in the world: cooperatives cannot remain locked up at home, nor can they leave home as if they were not cooperatives. We must have the courage and imagination to build the right way to integrate development, justice and peace in the world."

Since the Church has categorically rejected socialism and communism I doubt the Pope is promoting them. I don’t see how a cooperative would work on a large level (more or less on a national level) nor is that what I believe the Pope is promoting

 

[LongingSoul]

Since the Church has categorically rejected socialism and communism I doubt the Pope is promoting them. I don’t see how a cooperative would work on a large level (more or less on a national level) nor is that what I believe the Pope is promoting

Why does the cooperative sentiment have to be only socialism/communism as a general economic model? The Pope in his statement is asking the question what new way can we tread in government with this ethos. It’s got to be possible to have a free market economy that doesn’t depend on ‘greed being good’ to be viable.

 

[estesbob]

Why does the cooperative sentiment have to be only socialism/communism as a general economic model? The Pope in his statement is asking the question what new way can we tread in government with this ethos. It’s got to be possible to have a free market economy that doesn’t depend on ‘greed being good’ to be viable.

We have a free market where greed is good is not the driving force. Again the Pope has broken no new ground here-just reiterating Church teaching on subsidiarity.

 

[JimG]

What is a cooperative? If it is a group of people working together for a common goal, then a corporation is a cooperative. The ultimate cooperative would be an employee-owned corporation, and in fact there are some employee owned corporations. If a cooperative grows large enough it will begin to look more and more like a corporation.

 

[ProVobis]

What is a cooperative? If it is a group of people working together for a common goal, then a corporation is a cooperative. The ultimate cooperative would be an employee-owned corporation, and in fact there are some employee owned corporations. If a cooperative grows large enough it will begin to look more and more like a corporation.

Good point.

 

[graciew]

I see it this way . Being catholic and thinking outside the box .
Our “hard disks” are catholic , whatever idea ,it starts and stays from and within a catholic framework.
So we may think outside the box to solve concrete problems but we go back to check that we are on track.
Thinking outside the box does not mean jumping out of the box.
At a local level ,for example , there are very well formed people in bussiness ,sociology or whatever it takes and creative people and soundly formed priests that may help ideas solve problems and working together we see that our Church " blesses" it or brings us back into the “box” to keep thinking .
And so do the " experts". When after much studying an issue they are certain it will not work , they bring the “imaginative” like me for example ,down to earth and we keep trying all together out of love of God and our brothers and sisters.
And here he is encouraging good willed with no expertise to join in ,cause not being conditioned may help ,and our good team mates may evaluate our ideas within their expertise.
Excuse my usual lack of more elaborate language.

 

[graciew]

And by the way ,there may be places where they may have agreed on the "what " they could do but they do not have the “know how”. The Church could bring these ends together. We could organize volunteer teams to analize projects.
Well , I am getting carried away , I know…call it enthusiasm…

 

[LongingSoul]

We have a free market where greed is good is not the driving force. Again the Pope has broken no new ground here-just reiterating Church teaching on subsidiarity.

I’d be interested to revisit this thread after the Pope visits Washington and the UN later this year. He’s so far not been the type of Pope who’s happy just to reiterate Church teaching. He wants to use his papal influence to tap the global conscience at all levels. The Church isn’t just for baptised Catholics, it’s for everyone and it has an vital duty to take a strong position regarding the ethos of government and economy.

 

[LongingSoul]

What is a cooperative? If it is a group of people working together for a common goal, then a corporation is a cooperative. The ultimate cooperative would be an employee-owned corporation, and in fact there are some employee owned corporations. If a cooperative grows large enough it will begin to look more and more like a corporation.

A ‘common goal’ is not the same thing as the common good and cooperatives primarily esteem the common good (as a universal principle). They are bodies influenced by intrinsic motivations rather than the predominent corporate goals which are influenced by extrinsic motivations. They esteem competition and the ultimate goal is Fortune 500.

The differences lie in the motivations rather than the size.

 

[LongingSoul]

I see it this way . Being catholic and thinking outside the box .
Our “hard disks” are catholic , whatever idea ,it starts and stays from and within a catholic framework.
So we may think outside the box to solve concrete problems but we go back to check that we are on track.
Thinking outside the box does not mean jumping out of the box.
At a local level ,for example , there are very well formed people in bussiness ,sociology or whatever it takes and creative people and soundly formed priests that may help ideas solve problems and working together we see that our Church " blesses" it or brings us back into the “box” to keep thinking .
And so do the " experts". When after much studying an issue they are certain it will not work , they bring the “imaginative” like me for example ,down to earth and we keep trying all together out of love of God and our brothers and sisters.
And here he is encouraging good willed with no expertise to join in ,cause not being conditioned may help ,and our good team mates may evaluate our ideas within their expertise.
Excuse my usual lack of more elaborate language.

I agree with that, graciew. The Pope seeks to encourage the ‘good willed’ to have a voice within the system to bring about change. Outside protest like the Occupy Wall Street movement is only going to be effective if there is a listening ear on the inside. It is telling that OWS was treated as if they were committing treason.

 

[estesbob]

I agree with that, graciew. The Pope seeks to encourage the ‘good willed’ to have a voice within the system to bring about change. Outside protest like the Occupy Wall Street movement is only going to be effective if there is a listening ear on the inside. It is telling that OWS was treated as if they were committing treason.

Well they were committing rape, vandalism, assault and battery and other assorted crimes .

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Pope explains…

“The fifth encouragement might surprise you! It takes money to do all these things,” said the pope. “You must invest, and invest well! . . .] With good determination, put together good means to achieve good works. . . .] As Basil of Caesarea, a Father of the Church in the fourth century, said, quoted by St Francis of Assisi, ‘money is the dung of the devil’. When money becomes an idol, it rules man’s choices. It then ruins and condemns him. It makes him a serf. Money in the service of life can be managed in the proper way by a cooperative, but only if it is a real and true cooperative, when capital does not rule over people but people rule over capital.”

It has to be a true cooperative with a fundamental attitude of charity. It can’t work for those who retain the need to find personal benefit in their charity efforts.

I cannot agree that money is “dung of the devil”. People can be devlish about money, no question about it. But I have come to think about it, in the ordinary course of things, as something approaching an expression of gratitude. People don’t part with money readily. And yet, if there is something they really want or need, they’ll trade money for it. For most people, money is the product of their labor. I work in a service business, and when people hand me money for my work, I take it as a sign of appreciation for my work. They can’t trade work for work directly, so they do the next best thing, and so do I.

I like something St. Thomas Aquinas said about justice in trade. A trade is just, he said, when one person gives something he values less for something he values more. Most economic relationships are actually like that. If I value, say, the utility of a car to me more than I value, say, $10,000 gained by my labor, I obviously value the car more than I value the labor it took to get the $10,000 or I wouldn’t buy the car at all. I’m not seeing “dung of the devil” in any of that.

(I know $10,000 isn’t a lot for a car. I only buy used cars myself.)

There are cooperatives in our history. My electricity comes from a cooperative that once was really a cooperative, but is now just another corporation. Cooperatives on a small scale can, I think, be viable. But I think their utility is pretty limited. Possibly the Pope is talking about something that applies more to the third world than it does to the first.