VATICAN - Pope: when a marriage fails "do not condemn" instead “accompany” those involved [AN]
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Casilda
Guest
Pope Francis is what is keeping me hopeful. This quote from the article above says a lot in what I am experiencing
Vatican Radio reports that the Pope was inspired by the Gospel of the day in which the Pharisees present Jesus with the problem of divorce. The Pope noted how their style is always the same: “casuistry”, the question of whether “it is lawful or not”. "Always the petty case. And this is the trap behind casuistic thought [this rule based reasoning] there is always a trap. Always! Against people, against us and against God, always! 'But is it lawful to do this?
In trying to come back to the church I have been affronted by this ‘rules based approach’ instead of a loving approach. And I am not dealing with any divorce, or multiple relationship problem. I married ‘outside’ the church but with a mentality and heart issue that I was IN the church, married for life, married a baptized believer, and yet I am held at arms distance, I can not approach the Eucharist. No one I have talked to acknowledges my spirituality, its all rule based-by the book discussions. They can not see the prolonged separation is killing me.
Vatican Radio reports that the Pope was inspired by the Gospel of the day in which the Pharisees present Jesus with the problem of divorce. The Pope noted how their style is always the same: “casuistry”, the question of whether “it is lawful or not”. "Always the petty case. And this is the trap behind casuistic thought [this rule based reasoning] there is always a trap. Always! Against people, against us and against God, always! 'But is it lawful to do this?
In trying to come back to the church I have been affronted by this ‘rules based approach’ instead of a loving approach. And I am not dealing with any divorce, or multiple relationship problem. I married ‘outside’ the church but with a mentality and heart issue that I was IN the church, married for life, married a baptized believer, and yet I am held at arms distance, I can not approach the Eucharist. No one I have talked to acknowledges my spirituality, its all rule based-by the book discussions. They can not see the prolonged separation is killing me.
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CutlerB
Guest
I am not sure what to make of this, the words seem ambiguous. 
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phil19034
Guest
I too was in your situation until a few months ago. I met with my priest had my situation fixed. I too mentality and in my heart felt that my wedding was “IN the church, married for life…” etc. So I eventually had a Radical Sanation. The Radical Sanation retroactively made my previous marriage valid. Once the priest knew me and my situation and why a convalidation was not the best option for me & my wife (my wife felt that our marriage was valid and didn’t want to get remarried), it was pretty simple to receive the Radical Sanation. The priest called the diocese and requested the form. Then, once the priest had the required forms, he and I answered the questions together (each diocese is different). Then, the form was sent in and the Bishop approved it. The priest gave me the certificates. (One for my parish, one for the parish I was baptized at, one for me to keep & one for the dioceses).
I strongly suggest you speak to your parish priest about receiving a Radical Sanation. It’s not difficult and will retroactively grant you the dispensation you needed in order to marry outside the Church.
If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me.
God bless.
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tominrichmondva
Guest
Our Lord Himself gave “rules” to the Church when He gave St. Peter the power of binding and loosing. There can be no just use of that power without “rules” and laws that clarify for believers what the Church can and cannot bind and loose.
People trying to avoid rules and laws are usually trying to avoid responsibility and accountability.
St. Peter (the Church) applying rules, especially where it touches the Sacraments, is not “condemning” it is clarifying, and helping to defend the truth, in this case, the truth given by God Himself concerning the indissolubility of marriage, a truth for which many martyrs have given their lives.
Thomas More and Bp. Fisher, after all, did not dare to suggest that well, the Church could have given a “loving” answer to Henry VIII instead of a legal one.
People trying to avoid rules and laws are usually trying to avoid responsibility and accountability.
St. Peter (the Church) applying rules, especially where it touches the Sacraments, is not “condemning” it is clarifying, and helping to defend the truth, in this case, the truth given by God Himself concerning the indissolubility of marriage, a truth for which many martyrs have given their lives.
Thomas More and Bp. Fisher, after all, did not dare to suggest that well, the Church could have given a “loving” answer to Henry VIII instead of a legal one.
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DAML72
Guest
Oh pish. My guess is you were born and raised Catholic. Anyone who has converted or, like others above, have had to get back into the good graces of the church understands what the poster was talking about. Catholics DO have a LOT of rules, and there are a certain number of people within the Church who are guided almost entirely by rules and don’t take the time to inquire into the reality of people’s situations or make accommodations. This can often make more of a burden on the person seeking entry than it needs to be.
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McCall1981
Guest
I’m a convert and I agree with tominrichmondva.
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CutlerB
Guest
When the Pope says “don’t condemn them” and “don’t apply casuistry to their situation”, my initial thoughts were “OK, so are we dumping the rules and theory now?”.
But when I continued to read the article, His Holiness seemed to be saying exactly the opposite, especially the following words:
But when I continued to read the article, His Holiness seemed to be saying exactly the opposite, especially the following words:
He isn’t saying “Dump the rules, let’s be ‘pastoral’!”. No, I think Pope Francis is trying to make a point here: That it is not enough to cite the rules and then leave people to their own devices. Instead, he is saying “Yes, look at what the law says, and put it in perspective by explaining why it says that. What is the purpose of marriage and what are the consequences?”. I understand him be saying that people need to understand why a given situation is bad. Jesus didn’t say “Forget the law, Pharisees!”, no, He “asked them what the law said” and then went a step further.
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Thorns
Guest
How do we make sure when we “accompany” that we dont indirectly “encourage”?
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pnewton
Guest
And instead of binding, Pope Francis is loosing! The man sure has a way with bringing us back to what is important and what is secondary. In other words, remembering that the Sabbath was made for Man, not visa versa.
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Cider
Guest
Who’s condemning anyone?
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Casilda
Guest
When two Christians approach the church, their what-ever-how-ever marriage is valid, when a Catholic comes back, with a Christian-now-wantabee-Catholic husband its fill out this form, get that notarized, interrogation exactly how were you baptized, dispensation request, now you need an update baptismal record. When I asked repeatedly when can I commune, I get no answer. My husband is noticing this uncharitable paper shuffling. You have two souls in front of you, and instead of being pastoral, you are requesting signatures, notarizations, affidavits, etc. Its all rather mind boggling. At the end of another week,I am further away than I was before meeting with deacon bureaucrat.
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CutlerB
Guest
Being “pastoral” includes teaching Christian doctrine. It is concern for souls, which necessarily includes this. I fully understand that you are not happy in this situation, but to suggest “To hell with all the papers and procedures” is not going to solve any problems. There is a reason this investigation goes on: To not lead into sin.
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InNomineDomini
Guest
These are the costs, are they not, of certain decisions made in the past?
So many Catholics stay away from the Church for decades, and then, upon attempting to return to full communion and a fully Sacramental life, are frustrated that doing so takes time, effort, prayer, spiritual struggle, and even anger and frustration.
Fair enough, my prayers are with such Catholics.
But whose paperwork and bureaucracy forced them to leave in the first place? Who made them embrace apostasy or heresy?
I say again, there are costs, and thank God that He will help us pay them.
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Casilda
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I have met those Catholics you say leave the church and turn their backs on it. They become the most virulent anti-papists. I didnt leave the church, I was taken out by my parents. I have struggled to get back ever since. I have lived my life and defended my Catholic roots, so as now my husband is willing to join. Now we confront uncharitable Catholics as yourself, who do not explain, but accuse. You do not know me. Yet you accuse me of abandoning my faith. I never have. I am beginning to wonder if my strong faith in God is somehow misdirected in including a strong faith in the church. Its not looking like what I remember. Its very casual and odd things keep happening that pester my conscience. Like mass with no priest, and no priest available for rcia’ers, or for confession. A church with no pastor. Hmmm. I have prayed about this, there is something God wants me to learn about this voyage back to the church. It is NOT what it used to be. People, priests and deacons are overworked and therefore inattentive to real spiritual crises. The faithful if they are not strong fall away. I don’t think that is right. There are a lot of hurting people out there. I am one. I know what I need but I was denied confession and therefore communion. Maybe I just should travel until I find a spiritual priest that will listen and I can just return to these sacraments and be. Fridays are bad days for me. I have tried all week to be heard, come Sunday or maybe Saturday at vigil, I will go be with Christ from an arms length. I will fight back the tears. I will watch others communing (hey, who are those people anyway?) And then I will walk out and hopefully live another week of trying to get someone to listen.
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maryjk
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I was in the same state.
I didn’t leave the Church. My parents did.
I had no idea that I had to be married in the Church. Heck, my parents left after I made my first Communion. How many 7 year old’s know about and remember the teachings of the Sacrament of Matrimony? I certainly didn’t. I wasn’t trying to avoid responsibility and accountability. Heck, I was just trying to be a good wife and mother.
When I returned to the Church and had to go through the Convalidation process, I could have easily been turned away by a rude and obnoxious priest.
Instead I had a very pastoral Pastor. He welcomed me back as though I was the prodigal son. He took care of the paperwork, petitioning the bishop and all of the rest. I scheduled a Confession, chose readings and showed up.
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Cider
Guest
Your individual experience does not reflect the church as a whole. We had a deacon at nearly every single RCIA meeting and our priest was always available for us. I’ve been in other parishes where the priest is the one instructing candidates for reception.
Every person being being received into the church has their marriage situation evaluated. You say your parents removed you from the church but you got married as an adult right? You were already Catholic, you could have chosen to go to a priest before you got married and requested a dispensation to marry outside the church. Basically the evaluation you are going through now is because you didn’t go through any process before you got married.
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maryjk
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