Vatican Praises film "Spotlight"

[Kliska]

A few posters are confusing the infallible magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church with officials in local Churches. Non-Catholics can’t be held responsible for not knowing the difference between the magisterium and local prelates, or for believing the OP article’s flagrant misinformation about the status of the newspaper which liked the movie. Nevertheless, the newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, can’t on its own speak for the Church.

The magisterium can correctly be called the “Church”; local prelates, even as a group, can not. Certainly, some local prelates, rather than using common sense, took the word of psychiatrists; or were careerists rather than pastors, and so covered up; or may even have been complicit. And, yes, it’s true that many (most?) ignored the magisterium’s 1961 instruction that gays should not be ordained. (The magisterium issued another, stronger instruction in 2005).

So, please, try to not blame the automobile industry for drunk drivers. Moreover, of the hundreds of thousands of religious and secular entities around the world , all of which have the same horrible problem with the weakness and sin of its members,, only the Catholic Church spends the proportionately great sums of money, effort and time necessary to combat the problem and comfort the victims–billions that the Church could otherwise put to good use in hospitals, charities and renovations and new buildings. Yet guess which entity gets the bad press while other industries sit back and rake in the cash?

Quite the opposite, we’ve pointed out that the teaching of the RCC is not to go molest children, in fact all acknowledge that the RCC teaches that is a heinous sin. Nor is anyone saying the whole magisterium is the group molesting kids. What I, and others, are saying is that the RCC as in institution does indeed deserve some of the blame because of the system of the institution itself aiding and abetting priests who where doing the molesting. Institutions are made up of people, and in this case the very hierarchy structure of the RCC and some of the humans that filled that hierarchy are indeed to blame.

The very leaders of the RCC have said as much. Further it is this very fact that can turn the RCC into an institution that performs better than the rest of society in fixing these situations.

 

[abucs]

… the teaching of the RCC is not to go molest children, in fact all acknowledge that the RCC teaches that is a heinous sin. Nor is anyone saying the whole magisterium is the group molesting kids. What I, and others, are saying is that the RCC as in institution does indeed deserve some of the blame because of the system of the institution itself aiding and abetting priests who where doing the molesting. Institutions are made up of people, and in this case the very hierarchy structure of the RCC and some of the humans that filled that hierarchy are indeed to blame.

The very leaders of the RCC have said as much. Further it is this very fact that can turn the RCC into an institution that performs better than the rest of society in fixing these situations.

I agree with you.

I would just add that here is a very clear example of where the church (us) need to be judgemental. Being ‘not judgemental’ was a phrase that entered Catholic vocabulary around the time all this mess was happening. It has not served us well.

One day being ‘non judgemental’ is proclaimed a virtue and the next day bishops are crucified for it. I personally think we have to be very judgemental about the foreign philosophy that enters Catholic thought, often via the universities and media.

Little phrases like this, which are not challenged, can be manipulated in many ways and cause people to move away from Christian life while still being in the church.

This creates a culture that allows non Christian values and life to flourish within the very walls of the church and to challenge traditional Christianity under the false banner of modernity. It also creates a timebomb of people just looking for an excuse to leave completely.

 

[Dirk_Skene]

Has anyone seen this film?

cinemablend.com/new/Vatican-Newspaper-Has-Surprising-Reaction-Spotlight-Oscar-Win-115487.html

Not yet but I plan on it. Every good Catholic should see this film. Men like this need to be eliminated from our church

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by KSU:
A few posters are confusing the infallible magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church with officials in local Churches. Non-Catholics can’t be held responsible for not knowing the difference between the magisterium and local prelates, or for believing the OP article’s flagrant misinformation about the status of the newspaper which liked the movie. Nevertheless, the newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, can’t on its own speak for the Church.

The magisterium can correctly be called the “Church”; local prelates, even as a group, can not. Certainly, some local prelates, rather than using common sense, took the word of psychiatrists; or were careerists rather than pastors, and so covered up; or may even have been complicit. And, yes, it’s true that many (most?) ignored the magisterium’s 1961 instruction that gays should not be ordained. (The magisterium issued another, stronger instruction in 2005).

So, please, try to not blame the automobile industry for drunk drivers. Moreover, of the hundreds of thousands of religious and secular entities around the world , all of which have the same horrible problem with the weakness and sin of its members, only the Catholic Church spends the proportionately great sums of money, effort and time necessary to combat the problem and comfort the victims–billions that the Church could otherwise put to good use in hospitals, charities and renovations and new buildings. Yet guess which entity gets the bad press while other industries sit back and rake in the cash?

---

Quite the opposite, we’ve pointed out that the teaching of the RCC is not to go molest children, in fact all acknowledge that the RCC teaches that is a heinous sin. Nor is anyone saying the whole magisterium is the group molesting kids. ** I explained that when posters blame the “Church” it amounts to blaming the magisterium [the sole governing entity, headed by the Pope] because the term “Church” is shorthand for the magisterium. Blaming the “hierarchy” amounts to the same thing; the “hierarchy” of the Church is the magisterium. If a poster means only the hierarchies of some local Churches, then that is what should be said in order to avoid blaming the Church Herself. The local hierarchies at issue are not the “Church” or the magisterium. The “Church” did not abuse, or cover up, or trust solutions to psychiatrists. ** What I, and others, are saying is that the RCC as an institution does indeed deserve some of the blame No problem there; of course all CEOs can be said to share some of the blame. It goes with the territory. because of the system of the institution itself aiding and abetting priests who where doing the molesting. Big problem there. The “system of the institution” did no such thing. Individuals did. Institutions are made up of people, and in this case the very hierarchy structure of the RCC ** No. Again, individuals, not the hierarchical structure of the RCC, were to blame. ** and some of the humans that filled that hierarchy are indeed to blame. No, unless you amend that to say, “some of the humans in local Church hierarchies are indeed to blame”.

The very leaders of the RCC have said as much. That’s not correct if you mean the magisterium blamed the hierarchical structure of the Church; it did not. Further it is this very fact that can turn the RCC into an institution that performs better than the rest of society in fixing these situations. Good point. I hadn’t thought of that.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Has anyone seen this film?

cinemablend.com/new/Vatican-Newspaper-Has-Surprising-Reaction-Spotlight-Oscar-Win-115487.html

No, and I don’t plan on it, not so much out of fear of the Truth (I think that’s been made clear) but because I think at least part of the motive was to discredit the Church, and I would bet that’s a big reason why it took home an Oscar.

A lot of people were surprised that film won with gems like The Revenant.

As far as the Vatican praising it, that’s their call, but I hope they realize they don’t have many friends in Hollywood.

 

[Kliska]

KSU, we aren’t going to agree for a simple fact; I don’t think the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is Synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church at all. The Roman Catholic Church is the whole of the institutional church from laymen all the way up to the Pope. Those individuals esp. priests, bishops, and laymen are representational as they act within the framework and hierarchy of your church proper. This was an institutional problem wherever it cropped up; certain places in the US, certain places in Ireland, etc… It wasn’t an individual problem outside of the church proper. I’ve recently read the letters from the current Pope in regard to this, he does a fantastic job apologizing for the RCC and calling for change, and for prayer.

As I hope you and others can tell that doesn’t mean people like me blame the whole of the Roman Catholic Church. I also recognize that some do. I’m simply addressing the OP by saying that I don’t think the movie contributes to that. I think it was very well done.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Well the movie may not have entirely that benefit. After all the movie calls to question the response of not only the heirarchy, but of the laity as well. Many in the laity were equally complicit with the clerical hierarchy of helping to cover up the abuses. And yes some lump all Catholics in as being culpable, but they’re not in the majority in my experience.

And yes some lump the church as an organization in as being culpable. That is a more defensible position. When you consider a bishop acts as the leader of a administrative jurisdiction of the church and that multiple bishops worldwide were involved in the scandal (and many when caught like Law were inexplicable assigned to roles in Rome itself rather than tossed out on their backsides as they should have been…) It becomes difficult to separate the individuals from the institution, when the institution isn’t distancing itself from the abusive individuals or their enablers.

Did you know that when a dissenting Church leader is assigned to Rome, it is sometimes referred to as “being buried in Rome?” They may be assigned as a pastor to a church that has no congregation and are not allowed to speak out in public. Their primary duties are prayer and the upkeep of that church. I have read and heard that Bernard Law is simply a “priest” at a church that has no parish. His duties are prayer and upkeep of that church. As a priest, he still says mass, but no lay people attend.
It is my understanding the Fr. Andrew Greeley, who wrote raunchy romance novels, has also received the treatment of “being buried in Rome.” I don’t know what his official duties are, but he is not allowed to write raunchy romances anymore and is kept on a very tight leash.

 

[Padres1969]

Did you know that when a dissenting Church leader is assigned to Rome, it is sometimes referred to as “being buried in Rome?” They may be assigned as a pastor to a church that has no congregation and are not allowed to speak out in public. Their primary duties are prayer and the upkeep of that church. I have read and heard that Bernard Law is simply a “priest” at a church that has no parish. His duties are prayer and upkeep of that church. As a priest, he still says mass, but no lay people attend.
It is my understanding the Fr. Andrew Greeley, who wrote raunchy romance novels, has also received the treatment of “being buried in Rome.” I don’t know what his official duties are, but he is not allowed to write raunchy romances anymore and is kept on a very tight leash.

Oh I’m aware of the practice. And that Law’s assignment was viewed as a punishment internally.

 

[KSU]

KSU, we aren’t going to agree for a simple fact; I don’t think the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is Synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church at all. The Roman Catholic Church is the whole of the institutional church from laymen all the way up to the Pope. **Don’t you see that’s eating your cake and having it, too? If you say that the RCC for purposes of this debate is the whole of the institutional church from laymen all the way up to the Pope while saying the RCC is to blame for the abuse and cover up, then you are in fact saying, not merely implying or suggesting, that every person in the Church from laymen to the Pope abused and covered up. You are too intelligent not to understand how insensitive and insulting that is to every layman and prelate in the RCC up to and including the Pope, but especially the loved ones of the victims. ** Those individuals esp. priests, bishops, and laymen are representational as they act within the framework and hierarchy of your church proper. This was an institutional problem wherever it cropped up; certain places in the US, certain places in Ireland, etc… **No, my friend, it was not an institutional problem everywhere it cropped up because it cropped up in every Faith and every secular entity in the world–schools, offices, scouting clubs, etc., etc. For example, I recall not uncommon reports of it cropping up in many cases of married Episcopal priests. Were all of those abuse and cover up cases, in secular and religious entities all over the world, an institutional problem? Of course not! You know very well that it was a problem stemming from the weakness of disordered individuals, even when they acted in packs. ** It wasn’t an individual problem outside of the church proper. **Yes, it certainly was, except for the North American Man/Boy Love Association, aided and abetted by the ACLU which went all the way to the Supreme Court for the right to go on overnight camping trips with boy scouts. You could argue that WAS and remains an institutional problem. ** I’ve recently read the letters from the current Pope in regard to this, he does a fantastic job apologizing for the RCC and calling for change, and for prayer. **Of course he did, but you could not be more wrong in attempting to say that in so doing he was blaming the abuse and cover up on the institution of the “Church”–which in your words is " the whole of the institutional church" from school children, teachers, priests, bishops, cardinals, sisters, nuns, deacons, alter boys, victims and their parents, all the way up to the Pope. Are you claiming to know his meaning better than I or any knowledgeable Catholic? **

As I hope you and others can tell that doesn’t mean people like me blame the whole of the Roman Catholic Church. Fair enough, but your terminology, intentional or not, is misleading to people who have no clue who you blame when you blame the “RCC”. I also recognize that some do. I’m simply addressing the OP by saying that I don’t think the movie contributes to that. I think it was very well done. ** I would guess many do, but some non-Catholics don’t (See the link in post #23). As for the OP, I explained in my post #41: “Non-Catholics can’t be held responsible for not knowing the difference between the magisterium and local prelates, or for believing the OP article’s flagrant misinformation about the status of the newspaper which liked the movie. Nevertheless, the newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, can’t on its own speak for the Church.”**

 

[Galnextdoor]

I’m sorry, but as an outsider, but a fellow Christian, I disagree. The Church is, and always will be, a structure of humans regardless of it’s start. The RCC itself says it is a hierarchy which is visible, and has taken responsibility and apologized as appropriate. In this case, there were issues all within the hierarchy. The blame is there. The blame doesn’t fall on official teaching, but it does fall on select humans to do indeed make up the self-labelled hierarchy of the church.

I’m a bit of a realist when it comes to human nature… in my line of work it is a must if any true change is going to take place. Not all humans who know better do better… I’m sure there were those in the church who did what they could, I’m sure there were those that didn’t.

To me, blaming the Church is like blaming public schools when a teacher, principal, or superintendent is caught with child porn or caught molesting students. It’s blaming an entire institution for what an individual or group of individuals did. There is not a week that goes by that I don’t hear about an educator who molested students or was caught with child porn. In many cases, administrators were aware of the problem, but did nothing until the parents went to the police. Should the institution of public schools be blamed for what these people do? Should we say that all public schools are to blame because of what happened and is happening in public school districts across America?

In Missouri there was a football coach who kidnapped, raped, and murdered a little girl. The young girls at the school had complained about the way he looked at them and his behavior around them. Should all public school’s be held accountable for what this man did? Should public schools as a whole be blamed for this coach’s actions?

 

[Kliska]

Hey, KSU, I’m not interested in continuing to argue down this path, as I’ve made my position clear, and you indeed have the right to disagree. I see other Catholic believers “get” what I, and others are saying so I know others reading our words can make up their own minds, for sure. I do understand your perspective, I just don’t agree with it.

Grace and peace to you,
K

 

[KSU]

Hey, KSU, I’m not interested in continuing to argue down this path, as I’ve made my position clear, and you indeed have the right to disagree. I see other Catholic believers “get” what I, and others are saying so I know others reading our words can make up their own minds, for sure. I do understand your perspective, I just don’t agree with it.

Grace and peace to you,
K

Thanks, Klisla. I think that’s the best course because we can’t agree on terminology. Thus, we can’t communicate well enough to solve the impasse. The important point is that I believe you believe what you say.

May Our Lord bless you, too.

 

[Padres1969]

To me, blaming the Church is like blaming public schools when a teacher, principal, or superintendent is caught with child porn or caught molesting students. It’s blaming an entire institution for what an individual or group of individuals did. There is not a week that goes by that I don’t hear about an educator who molested students or was caught with child porn. In many cases, administrators were aware of the problem, but did nothing until the parents went to the police. Should the institution of public schools be blamed for what these people do? Should we say that all public schools are to blame because of what happened and is happening in public school districts across America?

In Missouri there was a football coach who kidnapped, raped, and murdered a little girl. The young girls at the school had complained about the way he looked at them and his behavior around them. Should all public school’s be held accountable for what this man did? Should public schools as a whole be blamed for this coach’s actions?

There is no “institution of public schools”. But the institution of the specific school district in an instance like that if they did cover it up should absolutely be blamed and held accountable. That’s where your analogy breaks down. Schools as an entity don’t go higher than the equivalent of the “diocese” level. The Roman Catholic Church does. And in some instances so did the institutional cover up. Members of the college of cardinals, effectively the “princes of the church” were involved in the cover up.

 

[TMC]

Did you know that when a dissenting Church leader is assigned to Rome, it is sometimes referred to as “being buried in Rome?” They may be assigned as a pastor to a church that has no congregation and are not allowed to speak out in public. Their primary duties are prayer and the upkeep of that church. I have read and heard that Bernard Law is simply a “priest” at a church that has no parish. His duties are prayer and upkeep of that church. As a priest, he still says mass, but no lay people attend.
It is my understanding the Fr. Andrew Greeley, who wrote raunchy romance novels, has also received the treatment of “being buried in Rome.” I don’t know what his official duties are, but he is not allowed to write raunchy romances anymore and is kept on a very tight leash.

I am pretty sure that the reason you are not seeing more books from Greeley is that he is dead. That usually cuts way back on an author’s productivity.

 

[pnewton]

K This was an institutional problem wherever it cropped up; certain places in the US, certain places in Ireland, etc

I think this is very true. I believe firmly, however, that the culture has changed. I think the reliance on both the state of psychology at the time and attorneys for advice and guidance in this matter was part of the institutional problem. No doubt the sheer embarrassment was also part of the problem. I really cannot blame the tendency toward mercy, though that was a factor. That part remains an absolute good.

Nonetheless, this movie will be the last one I would every see. I would rather watch mold grow.

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by Kliska:
This was an institutional problem wherever it cropped up; certain places in the US, certain places in Ireland, etc​

I think this is very true. I believe firmly, however, that the culture has changed. I think the reliance on both the state of psychology at the time and attorneys for advice and guidance in this matter was part of the institutional problem. No doubt the sheer embarrassment was also part of the problem. I really cannot blame the tendency toward mercy, though that was a factor. That part remains an absolute good.

Nonetheless, this movie will be the last one I would every see. I would rather watch mold grow.

I, too, think it’s true, provided we are talking about, as you imply, the cultural problem which was common to too many local Church “institutions”, as contrasted to a problem stemming from the nature of the institution we call the “Church” itself. A true “institutional” problem for the Church would be, for example, the built-in difficulty for the Holy Father to communicate quickly and effectively with the debilitating diversity of Catholics–language, culture, location, education, degree of orthodoxy, communication resources, etc.

My point is that weakness, depravity and self-preservation are human problems, common to all institutions–less so with religious ones, we hope. Sexual abuse and cover up is common in secular schools around the world, but I haven’t seen Hollywood or the Boston Globe falling over themselves to win awards or sensationalize it. It’s right under Hollywood’s nose thesenatorsfirm.com/Child-Sexual-Abuse/Sexual-Abuse-in-Public-Schools.aspx

 

[Lion_IRC]

There are people who blame the Church for the actual molestation itself. They can not separate people from the religion. In their minds, they think the religion somehow condoned it. They brand all Catholics as complicit…

Exactly!
And I’m fed up with being told that I should be ashamed of my church and how we
systematically facilitated pedophilia, and how we have no compassion for the victims,
and how we all support a cover-up, etc. etc.

If a criminal robs a bank wearing a disguise - dressing up as a nun or a priest - should we call the police or look the other way because we wouldn’t want to bring scandal onto the clergy?

The correct answer to this question is the answer which real catholics ACTUALLY DO GIVE when asked. And so do our church leaders.

 

[Lion_IRC]

On Australia’s national broadcaster last week, prominent journalist Josh Zepps said on live television that the Catholic Church is, quote;
“an institution which systematically protects child rapists”

Note.
That’s not an opinion and its not in the past tense.…used to protect, or historically protected, or was suspected of having protected.

 

[Padres1969]

On Australia’s national broadcaster last week, prominent journalist Josh Zepps said on live television that the Catholic Church is, quote;
“an institution which systematically protects child rapists”

Note.
That’s not an opinion and its not in the past tense.…used to protect, or historically protected, or was suspected of having protected.

Well when child molesters are still often retained as part of the clergy, even after they’ve been caught in the act…

I speak from personal experience in this matter. The 2 priests caught in cases of misconduct at my childhood parish with children (the third raped an adult), are all still members of the clergy. Both of them settled their cases quietly, swept the problem under the rug, and went on as priests. And this was 4 and 10 years after the Spotlight cases broke respectively mind you.

The RCC has made progress in addressing the issue, but much work still remains. And ignoring that this problem has not been completely dealt with will not make it go away.

 

[KSU]

Well when child molesters are still often retained as part of the clergy, even after they’ve been caught in the act…

That kind of accusation is why molesters of truth and decency in the entertainment, media and plaintiff’s attorney industries still cash in on the weakness and depravity of disordered people who had no right to, and who remain proscribed from, membership in the Roman Catholic clergy.

Average pew sitters like me pay for it all–billions of dollars, so far, because we know that in this life there is no alternative to and no fault in the Catholic Church Herself. So we just wince and continue to defend Her when we read accusations such as yours.

Note that I am not saying you know better. I give you the benefit of the doubt because many good people believe what the above-named industries tell them, while ignoring or never hearing about the exact same abuse in secular entities–schools, business offices, etc.–and in every other Faith.

Can you identify those secular entities and Christian Faiths which have proscribed people the Catholic Church humanely terms disordered? Your Episcopalian Faith most certainly has done just the opposite, and secular entities would be sued if they even considered doing so. Consequently, in America, except for the Catholic Church, the horrible results of human weakness and depravity continues largely unimpeded. But my Faith, not yours, continues to get the bad press. Why? That’s easy–the Catholic Church remains the only institution in the world which Satan has not and can not conquer.

BTW, have you named and reported to the Vatican the names of the priests (and their bishop-protectors) who “are still often retained as part of the clergy”, even after you know that they’ve been caught in the act? If it is still often happening, can you cite sources?