Vatican ready to quit Taiwan for ties with Beijing

[Traditional_Ang]

abcdefg:

I don’t know but what do you expect when you ask Paul Martin or John Kerry this question?

abcdefg:

Paul Martin and John Kerry are politicians and aren’t charged with maintaining the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

What’s being asked is what will the Vatican, who is charged with preserving the Deposit of Faith, instruct the priest and Bishops of the Church in the People’s Republic of China to say when congronted with those moral questions.

The Catholic Church in China that has been persecuted could always be relied on to teach the Deposit of Faith. That will happen in exchange for regularization and normalization of Diplomatic Ties? or, Will the Pope decide to follow the example of his personal hero, St. Thomas More, and not allow any of the compromises with evil made by the heretical, apostate and schismatic Patriotic Chinese Church?

Let us seriously pray for our Pope and the officials at the Vatican that they don’t try to compromise with the evil of the PRC regime in order to “make life easier” for Catholics in China. and, Let us pray that the Pope realize that the Holy Spirit will find ways to give him access to China’s believers even if he avoids the PRC Government.

For those who care - What China needs isn’t Capitalism. What it needs is Democracy that will allow Christians freedom to worship our Lord and to preach the Gospel with all the bits that make the “ChiComs” so uncomfortable!

Blessed are they who defend the weak and the powerless, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

abcdefg:

If Vatican sever ties with ROC now, all underground priests/bishops’ in PRC suffered for nothing.
I’m wondering what Vatican’s stance is if PRC invades ROC.

I tend to agree - The Nixon Administration started the “One China” policy with the PRC because the PRC demanded it. I thinks it’s a wrong-headed policy that’s outlived its usefulness.

It’s time we realized the Republic of China is and has been a viable Democrac State, and that recognizing Taiwan would help to advance the cause of freedom worldwide. If we did so, I believe it would be easier for other countries, including the Vatican, to do so.

The Martyrs in any totalitarian state die both for the spread of the Gospel and for the eventual fall of that regime. Their effects are Sacramental, and all we have to do is pray and dedicate ourselves to living lives worthy of their sacrifices

No matter how badly our political and religious leaders screw things up, Martyrs for our Savior, unlike soldiers on the Battlefield, never die for nothing. They always have an effect.

In Christ, Michael

 

[bekalc]

I don’t like the Chinese government. But they are the legitimate government of China. And well we recognize other dictatorships, things are getting better slowly in China.

As for the Tawain thing, I’ve talked to Chinese who are not Communists but even they would never accept a liberated Tawain. Please understand that until recently Tawain was not a democracy either, but taken over by Chiang Kishek. Chiang’s party was corrupt, there are strong reasons the Communists won. He was not an innocent victim.

The Chinese view Tawain as part of their country, and for a long time Tawain was accepted as the “real” China, which was ridiculous. China’s the real China, and why should a nation of million or so people be recognized over a Billion so people.

Now I’m willing to bet though that part of the negotiations will include Church teachings on abortion contraception and freedom for Catholics to practice their faith. Apparently though 95% of the “official Church leaders” are really loyal to the pope, and they were saying bishops not approved by the pope aren’t accepted by the people.

I say let’s not judge those in the underground/official Church. Most of us have no clue what its like under that kind of persecution.

 

[abcdefg]

bekalc:

I don’t like the Chinese government. But they are the legitimate government of China. And well we recognize other dictatorships, things are getting better slowly in China.

Politically,it was not better in the beginning, is not now, and ever won’t be.

bekalc:

As for the Tawain thing, I’ve talked to Chinese who are not Communists but even they would never accept a liberated Tawain. Please understand that until recently Tawain was not a democracy either, but taken over by Chiang Kishek. Chiang’s party was corrupt, there are strong reasons the Communists won. He was not an innocent victim.

Those Chinese have taken too much communist’s propaganda. and you need to prove Chiang’s Party was corrupt then. (I don’t like KMT now as it’s become too liberal) Chiang’s Party took the major role of fighting Japanese troops in WW2 and suffered most casualties on Chinese. Mao and his “comrades” just toured around collecting followers without even formal fighting.

bekalc:

The Chinese view Tawain as part of their country, and for a long time Tawain was accepted as the “real” China, which was ridiculous. China’s the real China, and why should a nation of million or so people be recognized over a Billion so people.

Now I’m willing to bet though that part of the negotiations will include Church teachings on abortion contraception and freedom for Catholics to practice their faith. Apparently though 95% of the “official Church leaders” are really loyal to the pope, and they were saying bishops not approved by the pope aren’t accepted by the people.

I say let’s not judge those in the underground/official Church. Most of us have no clue what its like under that kind of persecution.

I can only say “Don’t try to manipulate the Devil, his faith in evil is stronger than your faith in good”

 

[mlchance]

Lurch104:

Will B16 wail at their funerals when China invades?

Because, as everyone knows, it is the threat of Vatican military action that is keeping the PRC out of Taiwan.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Franze]

Difficult chapter, but I don´t want to judge.

 

[bekalc]

I took foreign policy history class at a secular university. According to the professor, who thought the US could have won Vietnam.

The United STates during World War II was annoyed with Chiang because he wasn’t fighting. It was the Communists who were doing most of the fighting. Chiang was trying to store a lot of weaposn and save up for what he saw was the big battle with the Communists.

 

[abcdefg]

bekalc:

I took foreign policy history class at a secular university. According to the professor, who thought the US could have won Vietnam.

If proper measures had been taken on traitors like Jane Fonda, US could have won it.

bekalc:

The United STates during World War II was annoyed with Chiang because he wasn’t fighting. It was the Communists who were doing most of the fighting. Chiang was trying to store a lot of weaposn and save up for what he saw was the big battle with the Communists.

That’s something new. What political party did that professor belong to? Even USSR agreed Chiang was fighting and Mao was storing weapons collecting followers

 

[bekalc]

The Professor was a democrat, but He was more conservative than most Professors. He made a lot of quips about liberals and told us a secret, the Americans had North Vietnamese beat it was the homefront. I was merly saying this because he’s not some liberal who was friendly to Communists…

We read a lot of primary sources there were problems in America’s relationship with Chiang. His government was corrupt and well Chiang was rightly concerned about fighting the Communists eventually. Chiang didn’t like America giving weapons to the communists but America’s main concern was Japan. Of course Mao had similar concerns.

As for the Soviet Union’s comments about Mao. It’s important to note that the Soviet Union and Mao didn’t have a great relationship whatsover. They wanted China as a puppet state, Mao would have none of it. For awhile Mao was even imprisoned by them. The Soviets were hardly “impartial.”

As for my friend. Your right to extent. He told me that all little Chinese children are consistently told from they are very young, Someday we will be ONE country again. This being said he’s not thrilled with everything about his country either. For example, the Cultural Revolution really hurt his family big time, he’s says a lot of the people are still angry over what the government did there.

The thing is though Nationalism can transcend a policitical party or liking a particular government. Communism in a lot of ways is dead in China. (Maybe it will revive but I doubt it.) What the government is relying on is nationalism. One of the things I found for example in some research was that for example Chiang’s government also viewed Tibet as part of China.

So you got an issue where the Chinese really think True or not, that Tibet, Tawain belongs to their country. In the case of Tawain, you have a situation where without American support, Chiang would have been thrown out of there, and so they in someways blame the West for dividing their country. They have also long memories of different Western Countries humilating their country and exploiting it too.

Do I think the Tawainese should be allowed to be their own country YES. Although Chiang really hurt the indigenous Tawainese actually, when he came to power there. But considering how our government got some parts of our country (say Hawai, Southwest) we kind of need to be a bit careful. I think the Tawainese situation is something that must be solved between Tawain and China.

 

[abcdefg]

bekalc:

We read a lot of primary sources there were problems in America’s relationship with Chiang. His government was corrupt and well Chiang was rightly concerned about fighting the Communists eventually. Chiang didn’t like America giving weapons to the communists but America’s main concern was Japan. Of course Mao had similar concerns.

You can’t blame either side for concerning fight the other after WW2. however Mao obviously had too much of it. there’s no major battle between Mao and Japan. however some of the biggest battles in China are fought by Chiang. (Tai’er Zhuang and Shanghai for example)

bekalc:

As for the Soviet Union’s comments about Mao. It’s important to note that the Soviet Union and Mao didn’t have a great relationship whatsover. They wanted China as a puppet state, Mao would have none of it. For awhile Mao was even imprisoned by them. The Soviets were hardly “impartial.”

That’s in WW2 and well before the sino-soviet split, USSR experts wanted to see the frontline of Chinese communists, but were refused each time. finally they concluded there were no frontline for communists at all. at that time Mao daren’t offend USSR one bit.

 

[bekalc]

Well, I don’t remember all of it. I just remember being in class and the professor saying how it was suprising how the Americans preferred dealing with the Communists and were frustrated at times with the Nationalists. But the Americans had their objectives Chiang had his. The professor wasn’t really judging the nationalists for it.

 

[Lurch104]

mlchance:

Because, as everyone knows, it is the threat of Vatican military action that is keeping the PRC out of Taiwan.

– Mark L. Chance.

Not military, but a member of the UN no longer recognizing Taiwan makes it politically easier for China to invade. It is also making use of moral relativism…more Catholics in China than Taiwan, so sad for the Taiwanese, but Rome has has a net gain.

 

[Petergee]

bekalc:

As for the Tawain thing, I’ve talked to Chinese who are not Communists but even they would never accept a liberated Tawain. Please understand that until recently Tawain was not a democracy either, but taken over by Chiang Kishek. Chiang’s party was corrupt, there are strong reasons the Communists won. He was not an innocent victim.

The Chinese view Tawain as part of their country, and for a long time Tawain was accepted as the “real” China, which was ridiculous. China’s the real China, and why should a nation of million or so people be recognized over a Billion so people.

The people who say that may not be Communists but they have been fed Communist propaganda all their life. Taiwan has been a democracy for 14 years. China did not annex Taiwan until the late 17th century. Apart from the chaotic civil war period of 1945-1949, Taiwan has not been ruled by China since the 19th century. Historically and culturally speaking, Taiwan is no more an essential part of China than is Vietnam, Tibet, Mongolia or Korea. Taiwan has 23 million people, a bigger population than most other inernationally recognised countries. The majority of Taiwanese want independence, but the government has not openly declared independence because China has credibly declared that the moment they do, China will invade and force vthem into subjection. We support self-determination for other people, why not the Taiwanese?

Having said that, the Church faces a very difficult problem with China. The situation is like England in the 16th century which set up its own church. The Catholic Church’s response was to not recognise the new Church of England and tell Catholics they need not obey Queen Elizabeth I. This was a mistake, as it meant Catholics were treated as traitors and were persecuted for centuries. The Church has to keep open negotiations with the Chinese govt while insisting on the non-negotiables - an end to persecution, freedom of religion, and no government interference in the Church.