First of all, there has been some bad interpretations by both Joysong and Lux because they only referenced the English GIRM which is not completely universal.
You forgot my post #238 where I referenced the latin GIRM? I think all of us can agree “latin” is the universal language for the Church and spells out what is the universal norm. It does say the same as the English GIRM, that the E.C. may adopt standing OR kneeling.
Second, the GIRM in Italian and Spanish leaves it up to the Episcopal Conferences to decide if they are going to adopt standing.
Only if you insert commas to make it mean what you say it does. You have done the same thing with the Latin GIRM to force the meaning you want to hold. I believe there are also many versions for other countries, and I strongly suspect they, too, would say the same thing, permitting the EC of each country to decide whether to “kneel OR stand.” I do know some knowledgable posters in the Asian countries, but that would not convince you either, for you would insert a comma.
Furthermore, Lux made a very erroneous statement when he noted that standing was the posture for the Eucharistic Prayer without checking his sources. He only went by what he saw when he was in a foreign country.
Lux is correct as was demonstrated in the
L&S thread here [and I know you read it], which says:
A common early posture for Christian prayer was standing. The Council of Nicea (c.325) prescribed that, on Sundays and during the Easter Season, prayers should always be standing, rather than while kneeling (canon 20), a custom also mentioned by the early Christian author Tertullian (2nd-3rd Centuries). It is still customary for many Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communities to stand rather than kneel during the Eucharist on Sundays and especially during the Easter Season.
This custom of standing is also followed in the Roman Rite when the Litany of the Saints is sung during the Easter Season. Although bowing and kneeling also are traditional postures during prayer, in earlier centuries kneeling was considered more as a symbol of penance for sin rather than a sign of respect during prayer. Thus, in early Christianity, kneeling was appropriate during Lent or at other times of penance, but not on days of joy. Nevertheless, prior to the Second Vatican Council, kneeling (rather than standing) was usually considered the most appropriate gesture for prayer no matter what the occasion.
The GIRM includes explicit general norms for posture during the revised Mass. Thus, as a general rule, ministers and people stand throughout the liturgy, particularly during the presidential prayers including the Eucharistic Prayer, following the ancient tradition.
When the 1969 Order of Mass became commonly used in the early 1970s, many countries of the world adopted these general norms of the GIRM without any adaptations. Thus, in many European countries, it is common for people to stand through most of the Eucharistic Prayer and only kneel for the institution narrative (if kneelers are available in the church), standing immediately afterwards to sing the memorial acclamation.
The U.S. Bishops, however, adapted the general norm to permit people to remain kneeling from the Sanctus to the concluding Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, since the posture of kneeling was such an ingrained practice in the U.S. at that time.
B'gal:
Furthermore, I sense a strong air of dissent regarding the issue of kneeling, even after the Vatican has defended it on several occasions.
That is your opinion, BG, but again, it is a wrong one. Not a single person has opposed kneeling, which is permitted in the US adaptation. It appears to me that the only reason for this argument extending itself into almost 300 posts, is to defend your right to change the interpretation of the GIRM, uncontested.
THIS is the strong air of dissent, and not as you would have others believe is ‘kneeling.’ Our position has been very clearly defined and proved:
- The faithful in the US, under the adaptation, may kneel, although the underlying intent is to avoid arbitrary private inclination – language specifically chosen by the GIRM.
- The GIRM #160, whether in Latin, Spanish, Italian, or English, says specifically that the E.C. may decide whether to kneel OR stand. No commas.
- Msgr. Marini’s letter is speaking only with regard to papal celebrations, and is not addressing anything else. A letter is not an official document, no matter what the content.
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