Vatican Secretary of State: Dissident Catholics More Worrying than Atheists

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I accept it because of my Catholic faith, so yes, the Virgin Birth was a historical event.

As I also said, the Moslems believe the Night Ride is true as a matter of faith. If it actual happened, it too did happen regardless of what any non-Moslems might think.

In either case, no empirical proof is possible. Acceptance is by faith, and belief in the factual event is thus by faith.
Ye gods. So the Night Ride happened because somebody believes it? So truth is all subjectivity? What’s true for you may not be true for me, because al truth is relative? Believing something makes it true?

I’m not saying you are a pro-abortion person, but this same logical disjunct is how so many Catholic politicans can claim to be personally opposed to abortion and then work their hearts out to insure that no abortion is ever prevented. They claim they can live in two different realities–one of which they dientify as “religious.” It can’t be done.
 
I accept it because of my Catholic faith, so yes, the Virgin Birth was a historical event.

As I also said, the Moslems believe the Night Ride is true as a matter of faith. If it actual happened, it too did happen regardless of what any non-Moslems might think.

In either case, no empirical proof is possible. Acceptance is by faith, and belief in the factual event is thus by faith.
One is true and one is not. Proof can come in many ways. Scientific proof is but one way to verify. Philosophical proof is another way. Each way does not contradict the other. Both sorts of proof are true.
The truth of the biblical texts, and of the Gospels in particular, is certainly not restricted to the narration of simple historical events or the statement of neutral facts, as historicist positivism would claim. (111) Beyond simple historical occurrence, the truth of the events which these texts relate lies rather in the meaning they have *in *and *for *the history of salvation. This truth is elaborated fully in the Church’s constant reading of these texts over the centuries, a reading which preserves intact their original meaning. There is a pressing need, therefore, that the relationship between fact and meaning, a relationship which constitutes the specific sense of history, be examined also from the philosophical point of view.
FIDES ET RATIO
 
Ye gods. So the Night Ride happened because somebody believes it?
No. It is an article of belief for the Moslems, so, as far as they are concerned it is actual fact, and occurred whether or not we accept it. The Virgin Birth is an article of belief for us, and we certainly consider it hard fact, no matter who else believes or doesn’t believe it.
Believing something makes it true?
No. Neither our believing in our doctrines, other Christians in theirs, or other religions in their doctrines make them true.
 
One is true and was is not.
I think you meant, “one is true and one is not.” Actually, neither contradicts the other, and as matters of historical fact, it is possible to accept that both the Virgin Birth and the Night Ride actually occurred. To be sure, we reject their belief, though I think the Moslems accept the Virgin Birth.
 
I think you meant, “one is true and one is not.” Actually, neither contradicts the other, and as matters of historical fact, it is possible to accept that both the Virgin Birth and the Night Ride actually occurred. To be sure, we reject their belief, though I think the Moslems accept the Virgin Birth.
Thanks for the correction. My point is that beliefs can be correct or incorrect. Beliefs can be subject to a type of proof.
 
I have a question or two for anyone.

When Thomas placed his hands in the Lord’s side after the Resurrection, (and notice I say “when,” not “If,” which makes me a fundamentalist I suppose), was that empirical evidence for the Resurrection for Thomas and the other disciples, or not?

When John recorded that event, (he was there and witnessed it), was his eyewitness testimony valid evidence of what happened, or not?
 
Thanks for the correction. My point is that beliefs can be correct or incorrect. Beliefs can be subject to a type of proof.
Outside the realm of faith? I agree that a belief can be incorrect. We reject much of Protestant belief to be sure, but our internal proof or disproof might not carry any weight outside the Church. (And usually doesn’t)
 
I have a question or two for anyone.

When Thomas placed his hands in the Lord’s side after the Resurrection, (and notice I say “when,” not “If,” which makes me a fundamentalist I suppose), was that empirical evidence for the Resurrection for Thomas and the other disciples, or not?

When John recorded that event, (he was there and witnessed it), was his eyewitness testimony valid evidence of what happened, or not?
For Christians, to be sure.
 
No. It is an article of belief for the Moslems, so, as far as they are concerned it is actual fact, and occurred whether or not we accept it. The Virgin Birth is an article of belief for us, and we certainly consider it hard fact, no matter who else believes or doesn’t believe it.

No. Neither our believing in our doctrines, other Christians in theirs, or other religions in their doctrines make them true.
When you say that a Muslim belief is actual fact, as far as they are concerned, you are employing a purely subjective standard of truth. You aren’t commenting on whether it is true or false, only pointing out that some people believe it to be true or false. As far as ancient man was concerned, the sun revolved around the Earth. But it didn’t. As far as many pregnant women are concerned, their unborn children are not human babies, and can be eliminated without guilt. But they are human.

Where is the real truth in all this??
 
I accept it because of my Catholic faith, so yes, the Virgin Birth was a historical event.

As I also said, the Moslems believe the Night Ride is true as a matter of faith. If it actual happened, it too did happen regardless of what any non-Moslems might think.

In either case, no empirical proof is possible. Acceptance is by faith, and belief in the factual event is thus by faith.
Agreed! This argument is also valid for any event in history - religious or secular; e.g, who was really behind the Kennedy assassination, did Pope Pius XII really side with Hitler, did the U.S. really put a man on the moon, etc. etc.
 
Outside the realm of faith? I agree that a belief can be incorrect. We reject much of Protestant belief to be sure, but our internal proof or disproof might not carry any weight outside the Church. (And usually doesn’t)
That is not necessarily rejected because the proof is wrong. Rejection occurs for several reasons.
 
Well, for a dissident Catholic to question a Church teaching by using some of the reasoning examples that other posters have supplied (and this does not mean that I am calling them dissident! because they are not necessarily saying that they themselves use this argument, but only that the argument is used by some). . .I refer you to my old friend C. S. Lewis (my son having borrowed my copy of “Mere Christianity” I’ll have to rely on memory and net, so apologies here). . .

C.S. Lewis I recall spoke of almost exactly this sort of situation in his writings–that people would argue, not over whether an event was “true”, had occurred, or was a fact, but whether it was ‘provable’ . Talk about prescient! He spoke of it as a triumph for the darker forces (this was in The Screwtape Letters) that a satan or devil, in tempting a human being, could get them to focus on not whether something was true or not true, but on a whole host of other nonessentials and semantics!

And this is, again, where dissidents can be more worrying than a flat-out professed atheist. If we have ‘our own’ falling prey to the snares of the devils and muddying the waters of truth, so that we as Christians can’t even get together to agree on what it is we believe, how can we witness to others?
 
Well, although I don’t believe that patg has yet acknowledged that the virgin birth is an historical event, it at least seems that those who sided with patg have acknowledged it as an historical event, realizing the virgin birth of faith cannot be separated from the virgin birth of history; i.e. if the doctrinal truth of the virgin birth is upheld in faith, it necessarily requires one’s assent that the virgin birth actually occurred in human history.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
…if the doctrinal truth of the virgin birth is upheld in faith, it necessarily requires one’s assent that the virgin birth actually occurred in human history.

In Christ,
I agree with that statement. However, I believe and teach that the assent is based primarily on faith and not on a formal historical analysis the result of which clearly demonstrates its historicity.

That is the semantic problem that has troubled this group all along. There is the popular, layman’s approach which says “we believe it happened so it must be historic”. And there is the formal analytical approach of the true historian which merely states that the historicity of the event cannot be determined from the evidence we have.

We appear to be making our closing arguments (and I guess it is about time for that). It should be noted that this historicist reading of the origins of the virgin birth story is not based on
hazy speculation or the work of one or two renegade scholars.

Where the Catholic Church once furiously defended the virgin birth as a real, historical event, John Meier, a Catholic scholar writing under the Vatican’s imprimatur (which assures the faithful that the work “is free of doctrinal or moral error”), can only conclude wanly that "taken by itself, historical-critical research simply does not have the sources and tools available to reach a final decision on the historicity of the virginal conception as narrated by Matthew and Luke." Please listen as this sums up what I have been saying all along - that historical resaearch simply cannot rule on the historicity.

Meier’s Catholic colleague Raymond Brown, also writing under the **imprimatur (**and appointed to the Pontifical Biblical Commission by two popes), goes further, acknowledging that "the infancy narratives are primarily vehicles of the evangelist’s theology and Christology."
 
I agree with that statement. However, I believe and teach that the assent is based primarily on faith and not on a formal historical analysis the result of which clearly demonstrates its historicity.

That is the semantic problem that has troubled this group all along. There is the popular, layman’s approach which says “we believe it happened so it must be historic”. And there is the formal analytical approach of the true historian which merely states that the historicity of the event cannot be determined from the evidence we have.

We appear to be making our closing arguments (and I guess it is about time for that). It should be noted that this historicist reading of the origins of the virgin birth story is not based on
hazy speculation or the work of one or two renegade scholars.

Where the Catholic Church once furiously defended the virgin birth as a real, historical event, John Meier, a Catholic scholar writing under the Vatican’s imprimatur (which assures the faithful that the work “is free of doctrinal or moral error”), can only conclude wanly that “taken by itself, historical-critical research simply does not have the sources and tools available to reach a final decision on the historicity of the virginal conception as narrated by Matthew and Luke.” Please listen as this sums up what I have been saying all along - that historical resaearch simply cannot rule on the historicity.

Meier’s Catholic colleague Raymond Brown, also writing under the **imprimatur (**and appointed to the Pontifical Biblical Commission by two popes), goes further, acknowledging that “the infancy narratives are primarily vehicles of the evangelist’s theology and Christology.”
Glad to hear that, but it did not at all seem that that was your thinking. Remember that the question to which you were responding in Post #101 did not at all reference the verifiability of an historical event via some formal historical analysis. The intent of the question was to get at the heart of the matter, which was that an article of faith that is based in an historical event necessitates that the historical event be true. In the case of the virgin birth, the virgin birth cannot be theologically true, or Christologically true, or soteriologically true, but historically untrue. That’s all I was saying. Yes, we take it on faith, but that can be said of any historical event. An atheist could be said to take it on faith that Jesus’ body was stolen from the tomb, although he could never demonstrate this to be historically true via formal historical analysis. Same for those who subscribe to the Swoon theory. This is also true for secular historical events.

BTW, imprimaturs are not infallible guarantees that a particular publication is free from doctrinal or moral error. At best, it is a statement by the one issuing that ‘to the best of their knowledge’ the text contains no doctrinal or moral errors… and it also depends on how carefully and critically the text was actually reviewed. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that some texts have had their imprimaturs removed. Also, it depends on how cleverly worded the text itself is. Often dissidents will provide a view contradicting an official teaching of the Church but do not necessarily hold to the contradicting belief themselves personally. For example, how John Meier who practically (if not in actuality) denies the perpetual virginity of Mary could actually obtain an imprimatur, proves to me that either he carefully worded his text that may touch on this matter so as to allow him sufficient wiggle-room and laywer-ese maneuvering to claim that he is not in fact teaching heresy, or the bishop did not review the text with sufficient care to catch the error.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
Well, although I don’t believe that patg has yet acknowledged that the virgin birth is an historical event, it at least seems that those who sided with patg have acknowledged it as an historical event, realizing the virgin birth of faith cannot be separated from the virgin birth of history; i.e. if the doctrinal truth of the virgin birth is upheld in faith, it necessarily requires one’s assent that the virgin birth actually occurred in human history.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
Im new here so maybe I missed it. Are you saying that if people believe in something that automaticaly makes it true?
 
It’s a multifaceted problem. And it’s going to take a lot of individual strategies to fix it, because each area of concern, from a bishop to a “Joe Catholic in the pew”, a parish to a diocese, and everything in between, can each have its own slightly different ‘problem’ with obedience and understanding.
“WE” all must do “OUR” SMALL part ( home, family, friends, co-workers, etc. ), hopefully the people we come in contact with to instruct the ignorant, will in turn do the same.
Leave the LARGE part to the Othodox Bishop’s, Priest’s and the Holy Father, Himself.
 
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