Vatican 'snubbed Ireland church abuse inquiry'

[lemonbeam]

**The inquiry into sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland has disclosed that the Vatican ignored formal requests for information.
**
The inquiry asked for details of reports on abuse sent to the Vatican by the Dublin archdiocese in 2006.

The Vatican did not reply but told the Irish Foreign Affairs department the request “had not gone through appropriate diplomatic channels”.

The inquiry condemned church leaders for covering-up abuse for decades.

The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, which was published on Thursday, covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

Read more: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8382010.stm

 

[cyberwolf001]

My Catholic friends keep swearing the Vatican has done much to help with these cases. From my time here all I ever see is:

A) Ignore it
B) Blame Gays / Liberals / Other group not liked by the far right
C) Blame the victims.
D) Issue guidlines that call for the excommunication of whistle blowers.

What exactly has the Vatican done?

 

[Telemachus]

My Catholic friends keep swearing the Vatican has done much to help with these cases. From my time here all I ever see is:

A) Ignore it
B) Blame Gays / Liberals / Other group not liked by the far right
C) Blame the victims.
D) Issue guidlines that call for the excommunication of whistle blowers.

What exactly has the Vatican done?

Cyberwolf,

Before “going on the attack,” I’d like to make it clear to you or any other readers that I understand the main problem in all these scandals: secrecy and hypocracy. The arrogance and psychopathy of the priests, bishops, and archbishops involved in these scandals is mind-blowing, and makes clear that the Church was at some time in the 20th Century infiltrated by people and ideas that have caused Her to err significantly. Leaders of the Church were more concerned with their status than in caring for their flock, and should be made to pay for what they have done. This much I agree with.

However, when has the Vatican issued “guidelines that call for the excommunication of whistle blowers?” I’m not being combative, I’ve just never heard of this before. If you have evidence, I’d like to see it.

In addition, in terms of (A) and (C), I think Pope Benedict XVI’s addressing of all this during his trip to America negates what you have said. Yes, (A) was the problem in the past, but steps are being taken to aid the victims of this abuse. Whether it means settling lawsuits or reaching out to the victims directly to provide them with counseling and the like, the Church has been doing it. I wish that I could provide you with specific references, but I have none off the top of my head. However, I have first hand experience with the SAFE training that has been implemented across most dioceses, and it is currently being used as a model by other organizations.

But above all, you are too flippant with (B). The abuse scandal here in the United States was perpetrated in a primarily homosexual fashion. I’m sorry if this is hard for you to accept, but for this I do have a at least one reference: usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/. Perhaps you don’t trust the study eventhough it was carried out by a disinterested party, but there it is. I direct you to Section 4.3 of the study in particular, as this gives the demographics of the victims of abuse by priests. If you do the math yourself, and if you accept normal definitions of “post-pubescent” (somewhere between 10 and 12), you will find that some 70~80% of all cases involved post-pubescent males. Perhaps you just think this is splitting hairs, but I find this more helpful than “priests are evil child rapists,” which is the kind of stuff you hear flying around the Interwebs. Not only that, but a nicely damning statement can be found here: transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0206/14/tl.00.html. Just search for the line “But what you have here are not pedophiles” and read. If a practicing homosexual can admit to all this, perhaps you need to re-think the issue.

Now, what I can’t tell you is what the heck happened in Ireland. For that, we will have to wait for the full analysis of the report. The Church in Ireland will probably be ruined for decades to come. Healing will take a great amount of time, and you can’t expect changes and resolutions overnight, especially given a resource-poor institution such as the Church. She may seem like Her pockets are bottomless, but in reality those are merely the pockets of believers, regular people.

God Bless,
Tele

 

[everblooming]

Cyberwolf,

But above all, you are too flippant with (B). The abuse scandal here in the United States was perpetrated in a primarily homosexual fashion. I’m sorry if this is hard for you to accept, but for this I do have a at least one reference: usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/. Perhaps you don’t trust the study eventhough it was carried out by a disinterested party, but there it is. I direct you to Section 4.3 of the study in particular, as this gives the demographics of the victims of abuse by priests. If you do the math yourself, and if you accept normal definitions of “post-pubescent” (somewhere between 10 and 12), you will find that some 70~80% of all cases involved post-pubescent males. Perhaps you just think this is splitting hairs, but I find this more helpful than “priests are evil child rapists,” which is the kind of stuff you hear flying around the Interwebs. Not only that, but a nicely damning statement can be found here: transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0206/14/tl.00.html. Just search for the line “But what you have here are not pedophiles” and read. If a practicing homosexual can admit to all this, perhaps you need to re-think the issue.

God Bless,
Tele

I want to start by thanking you for siting a study. However, you came to an illogical conclusion based on the evidence of this study. Your conclusion about homosexuals is even more inaccurate when you compare this study about priests with the population at large. I am a licensed clinical social worker and I have experience working with people who have sexually abused children. There is absolutely no evidence in this study or any other that shows that homosexuals sexually abuse children more than heterosexuals. If you want to find a distiction between sexual abusers of children and those of us who never would, look at GENDER. It is very rare for a woman to sexually abuse children. A lot of times when a man sexually abuses a child, it’s not about sexual orientation but about power and the thrill of trying to get away with something. Some men will abuse girls as well as boys. Some prefer children who are boys even though they are married to an adult woman.

Please stop scapegoating Gay and Lesbian people. This is not personal for me; I am not a Lesbian. I just don’t like to see people who are already oppressed being targetted.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Cyberwolf,
However, when has the Vatican issued “guidelines that call for the excommunication of whistle blowers?” I’m not being combative, I’ve just never heard of this before. If you have evidence, I’d like to see it

God Bless,
Tele

There you go Tele this document was turned over by an exposed Priest as part of a plea bargain. Link I showed this to some Catholic friends who cussed me out and refused to even look at it.

I want to start by thanking you for siting a study. However, you came to an illogical conclusion based on the evidence of this study. Your conclusion about homosexuals is even more inaccurate when you compare this study about priests with the population at large. I am a licensed clinical social worker and I have experience working with people who have sexually abused children. There is absolutely no evidence in this study or any other that shows that homosexuals sexually abuse children more than heterosexuals. If you want to find a distiction between sexual abusers of children and those of us who never would, look at GENDER. It is very rare for a woman to sexually abuse children. A lot of times when a man sexually abuses a child, it’s not about sexual orientation but about power and the thrill of trying to get away with something. Some men will abuse girls as well as boys. Some prefer children who are boys even though they are married to an adult woman.

Please stop scapegoating Gay and Lesbian people. This is not personal for me; I am not a Lesbian. I just don’t like to see people who are already oppressed being targetted.

What Blooming said.

 

[everblooming]

There you go Tele this document was turned over by an exposed Priest as part of a plea bargain. Link I showed this to some Catholic friends who cussed me out and refused to even look at it.

What Blooming said.

Please don’t misquote me. I didn’t say anything remotely like that poem you wrote that "What Blooming said . . . . "

Remember in the Ten Commandments what it says about bearing false witness against your neighbor?

Those Catholic friends of your don’t imitate Christ, do they? Christ was polite; Christ listened to others and most of all, he stood up for the the truth.

I want to repeat the basis of my original comment. **There is no evidence of any correlation between homosexuality and abusing children. Just as many heterosexual men have abused children as homosexual men. ** If you really want to go after a group of people to stop abuse, go after MEN. There is a correlation between men and sexual abuse. Of course, you might have a harder time getting people on this website to support you if you start going after men.

So many GOOD, CHRISTIAN people have left our church, not because of the GAY people. They left, because of the abuse and cover-ups by leader in our church. Please stop displacing the blame on this vulnerable group of people.

 

[PeterRabbit]

Oh noes

 

[cyberwolf001]

Please don’t misquote me. I didn’t say anything remotely like that poem you wrote that "What Blooming said . . . . "

Remember in the Ten Commandments what it says about bearing false witness against your neighbor?

Those Catholic friends of your don’t imitate Christ, do they? Christ was polite; Christ listened to others and most of all, he stood up for the the truth.

I want to repeat the basis of my original comment. **There is no evidence of any correlation between homosexuality and abusing children. Just as many heterosexual men have abused children as homosexual men. ** If you really want to go after a group of people to stop abuse, go after MEN. There is a correlation between men and sexual abuse. Of course, you might have a harder time getting people on this website to support you if you start going after men.

So many GOOD, CHRISTIAN people have left our church, not because of the GAY people. They left, because of the abuse and cover-ups by leader in our church. Please stop displacing the blame on this vulnerable group of people.

The poem is my signature, hence why it doesn’t show up in topic review and is in the signature area of my posts, below the line. The fact it is in every post I make should tell you something… I was quoteing your earlier post for truth as I agreed with it.

I mean serious the fact it didn’t show up when you quoted me SHOULD have been a big tip off. I am going to be charitable and assume your not trying to play the victim.

 

[everblooming]

The poem is my signature, hence why it doesn’t show up in topic review and is in the signature area of my posts, below the line. The fact it is in every post I make should tell you something… I was quoteing your earlier post for truth as I agreed with it.

I mean serious the fact it didn’t show up when you quoted me SHOULD have been a big tip off. I am going to be charitable and assume your not trying to play the victim.

Thank you for clarifying Cyberwolf. I thought you were quoting me. That poem that is your signature came up as a Pagan saying when I googled it. What does it mean?

I do not see myself as the victim. I’m trying to make sure that the Catholic Church doesn’t create more victims by scapegoating Gay people. I have a lot of friends who are devoted Christians who do not feel welcome in our church. The Catholic Church is supposed to be the “universal” church. I want everyone to feel welcome to hear the word of God and worship with us.

 

[pnewton]

I like the title. At least the BBC makes it clear for anyone with a modicum of understanding emotional content of words what their opinion is. There is no hidden agenda when a blatant one is given.

From the article:

The commission said it was independent of the government and therefore did not regard it as appropriate to use diplomatic channels when seeking information.

I regret that someone in this commission failed to recognize the proper way that nations deal with each other and simply seek for what they wanted using proper protocols. I think any other country in the world would have asked for similar measures when dealing with a group independent of the legitimate government. It is how nations prevent themselves from taking sides in internal disputes.

I have to wonder why they did not follow proper international protocol even if they deemed it inappropriate. They would have either gotten the information they wanted or shown the Vatican to be legitimately stonewalling.

 

[DOShea]

D) Issue guidlines that call for the excommunication of whistle blowers.

Well if you are justifying this statement by citing the bond of secrecy in a tribunal matter, I guess you’re also upset at the US Government for having rules binding those who participate in Grand Jury proceedings from also “whistle-blowing.”

There is a big difference between someone who has knowledge of abuse and reports it, publicly if it comes to that, and one who participates in a church legal proceeding where a lot of personal, perhaps unrelated information is revealed.

Think about it. Some of the parents of abused children wanted absolute secrecy; the last thing they want is for someone with intimate knowledge of the details of the abuse “whistleblowing” their child’s identity in a new NT Times bestseller. It is for those reasons that the details of the tribunal are held in secrecy.

If your employer had a beef with the way you performed your job, going so far as to gather witnesses to support the allegations of poor performance, do you think they would open it up to the public? To all employees? Would they tell you who they asked for first-hand accounts? Probably not. So why is the vow of secrecy somehow “special” in these matters?

Consider also that not everyone accused is guilty. How’d you like to be an accused cleric, not guilty of the allegations, and have only the accusations leak out, but not the other facts that showed you weren’t even in the same country at the time of the alleged abuse? Perhaps some of your personal medical history also? Seems to me that might be a good reason to keep the participants from discussing anything in the proceedings, dontcha think?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I like the title. At least the BBC makes it clear for anyone with a modicum of understanding emotional content of words what their opinion is. There is no hidden agenda when a blatant one is given.

From the article:
I regret that someone in this commission failed to recognize the proper way that nations deal with each other and simply seek for what they wanted using proper protocols. I think any other country in the world would have asked for similar measures when dealing with a group independent of the legitimate government. It is how nations prevent themselves from taking sides in internal disputes.

I have to wonder why they did not follow proper international protocol even if they deemed it inappropriate. They would have either gotten the information they wanted or shown the Vatican to be legitimately stonewalling.

There was no ‘internal dispute’. The Commission was set up by an act of the Dáil (Irish parliament) and had a High Court judge as its Chairman. Apart from that, it acted without government intervention; in fact, government departments (e.g. Health, Education, Justice) were required to make their relevant files available to the Commission, which they did. Likewise, the archdiocese of Dublin made its relevant files available even though one of the previous archbishops, Desmond Connell went to court to try to prevent his successor, Diarmuid Martin from doing so.

Following the usual protocol, the Commission wrote to the Papal Nuncio, who, apart from being the Vatican’s ambassador in Ireland (and surely au fait with the setting up of a commission to investigate the archbishopric), is also the head of the entire diplomatic community here. No reply was received and the Commission had little option but to attempt to deal directly with the Vatican.

So, one wonders why, given the importance of this enquiry and the legal status of the Commission, the Papal Nuncio failed to advise the Commission on how it might acquire the information it was seeking. That would have been the act of one friendly state to another, and in the interests of justice.

BTW, there are some here in Ireland who are calling for the Papal Nuncio to be expelled and the Irish ambassador to the Vatican to be recalled. That is both silly and very unlikely to happen IMO, but it is a measure of the burning anger that is felt here at the perceived lack of co-operation from the Vatican or even the barest hint of an apology from the Pope on the matter.

 

[rlg94086]

There is absolutely no evidence in this study or any other that shows that homosexuals sexually abuse children more than heterosexuals.

You have come to the false conclusion that people are accusing homosexuals of “abusing children more than heterosexuals.” When it comes to pedophilia, you are absolutely correct - there is no distinction. However, 80% of the cases were not pedophilia - they involved sexual activities with adolescent males. Now, I don’t know if there is any evidence that homosexuals are more attracted to adolescents than heterosexuals, but with regards to the priest scandal, it seems to be the case. Others have mentioned that it may have been easier for homosexually oriented priests to have access to adolescent males than heterosexually oriented priests. That may be the case, but it is a difficult thing to measure…purely subjective.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Others have mentioned that it may have been easier for homosexually oriented priests to have access to adolescent males than heterosexually oriented priests. That may be the case, but it is a difficult thing to measure…purely subjective.

Perhaps its subjective but its also logical. Up until the last 20 years or so not many people would have thought much of a priest taking the altar boys on a camping trip, to a ballgame, or on a day trip somewhere. However, any kind of overnight or extended day trip involving girls would have immediately raised eyebrows.

 

[redrosetea]

You have come to the false conclusion that people are accusing homosexuals of “abusing children more than heterosexuals.” When it comes to pedophilia, you are absolutely correct - there is no distinction. However, 80% of the cases were not pedophilia - they involved sexual activities with adolescent males. Now, I don’t know if there is any evidence that homosexuals are more attracted to adolescents than heterosexuals, but with regards to the priest scandal, it seems to be the case. Others have mentioned that it may have been easier for homosexually oriented priests to have access to adolescent males than heterosexually oriented priests. That may be the case, but it is a difficult thing to measure…purely subjective.

I think the word for this is Pederasty or paederasty …It was practiced by the Greeks in ancient times

 

[Irish_Becca]

There is absolutely no evidence in this study or any other that shows that homosexuals sexually abuse children more than heterosexuals.

Let me get this straight - you are saying that men who go after adolescent boys sexually are heterosexual?

 

[Corki]

There you go Tele this document was turned over by an exposed Priest as part of a plea bargain. Link I showed this to some Catholic friends who cussed me out and refused to even look at it.

What Blooming said.

I’m not cussing you out and I did look at it. I couldn’t read the handwritten comments but read the text itself. I believe you are referring to one of the boxed portions. The document you linked has nothing to do with whistle blowers. It has to do with people who break an oath they take while participating in a tribunal. Breaking holy oaths is excommunicable.

Before you get to it, there is a similar document about breaking the seal of Confession. It irks people but the seal is integral to the Sacrament.

 

[everblooming]

Let me get this straight - you are saying that men who go after adolescent boys sexually are heterosexual?

Some are, some aren’t. I have read the research. I was looking all over this new Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse document to find where I read what they wrote about this. I can’t find it (and it’s 2:00 AM here and I need to go to sleep). They said it wasn’t more with homosexual priests in this report too. You are welcome to check out the link below and see if you can find it. This is the report that was released to the public last week in Ireland - the report that has us all talking about this taboo subject.

On a professional level I have worked with many boys who were molested by married men or their mother’s boyfriend, etc. I’ve also worked with siblings where the biological father sexually abused both of them - his daughter and his son. Sexual abuse of children is more about power, accessibility and a lot of times drug/etoh abuse is involved. Unfortunately, now I am working on the other side of the spectrum and I have some adult sex offenders on my caseload. Denial, minimalizing, rationalizing, blaming the victim . . . . It is sick.

There are enough victims in this scandal. We need to put the blame where it belongs. Any religious organization is going to have some leaders who do wrong things. But not all religious organziations cover-up, lie and deny. That is unique with our Church. I hope that something good comes out of all this. Maybe with the increased awareness something good will grow. I hope so.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_05_09_abuse.pdf

 

[Irish_Becca]

I’m not cussing you out and I did look at it. I couldn’t read the handwritten comments but read the text itself. I believe you are referring to one of the boxed portions. The document you linked has nothing to do with whistle blowers. It has to do with people who break an oath they take while participating in a tribunal. Breaking holy oaths is excommunicable.

Before you get to it, there is a similar document about breaking the seal of Confession. It irks people but the seal is integral to the Sacrament.

I looked at that document, too - I couldn’t find anything untoward. Cyber, can you point out exactly what we should be looking for?

 

[Irish_Becca]

Some are, some aren’t. I have read the research. I was looking all over this new Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse document to find where I read what they wrote about this. I can’t find it (and it’s 2:00 AM here and I need to go to sleep). They said it wasn’t more with homosexual priests in this report too. You are welcome to check out the link below and see if you can find it. This is the report that was released to the public last week in Ireland - the report that has us all talking about this taboo subject.

On a professional level I have worked with many boys who were molested by married men or their mother’s boyfriend, etc. I’ve also worked with siblings where the biological father sexually abused both of them - his daughter and his son. Sexual abuse of children is more about power, accessibility and a lot of times drug/etoh abuse is involved. Unfortunately, now I am working on the other side of the spectrum and I have some adult sex offenders on my caseload. Denial, minimalizing, rationalizing, blaming the victim . . . . It is sick.

There are enough victims in this scandal. We need to put the blame where it belongs. Any religious organization is going to have some leaders who do wrong things. But not all religious organziations cover-up, lie and deny. That is unique with our Church. I hope that something good comes out of all this. Maybe with the increased awareness something good will grow. I hope so.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_05_09_abuse.pdf

I want to make it clear, as I have said before in other threads, that anyone and everyone involved in hurting children - those who did the acts and those who covered it up - need to get OUT. Once you cross the line and hurt a child, you are no longer fit to lead a flock. That’s it.

That being said, I do not buy in any way, shape, or form that these priests were heterosexual. Over 80% of those who were abused were males, and the majority of those were post-pubescent. The pervert priest has no wife to go to - he could have just as easily preyed upon adolescent girls.

I can’t find the statistic right now either (I will look, though), but I have read before that once you take into account the fact that there are drastically less homosexual males in the population than heterosexual, homosexual males are more likely to molest more boys, and at a higher rate.