Vatican squelches rumors of new rules on Mass facing east

[JimR-OCDS]

CatholicSooner;

It would not have been reverting back to pre vatican II form. I imagine the thought was to have the priest revert back to facing east during the consecration and sprinkling in more latin responses,etc. Not everything would be in latin and there would still be active participation.

Why ? Latin responses, God hears, but not when said in the vernacular ?

Not sure how you can call the recommendation of the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments a rumor.

Its the headline of the article and what was being addressed in the article. Did you read it ?

i fail to see how wanting to reform the reform has anything to do with politics. please.

I understand your failure to see it.

Jim

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

that priests celebrate Mass ad orientem, meaning facing east with their backs to the people

I need to start this post by saying I have never attended a norvus ordo Mass celebrated ad orientem, so I don’t know what it actually looks like, but…

Is anyone else annoyed by the diction? Instead of saying “with their backs to the people” (focusing on the negative of the action) we focus on the positive of the orientation by facing Jesus in the tabernacle and say “facing the liturgical east / Jesus in the tabernacle.”

“backs to the people” makes it sound like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about the people in the pews, not worshipping God and by extension trying to increase due reverence.

Has anybody thought why Cardinal Sarah was trying to encourage this?

 

[CatholicSooner]

CatholicSooner;

Why ? Latin responses, God hears, but not when said in the vernacular ?

God hear all and doesn’t have a language per say. But partly tradition and party reference, and partly to minimize errors in translations

Its the headline of the article and what was being addressed in the article. Did you read it ?

Not sure which article you are referencing.

I understand your failure to see it.

Jim

What would be the politics driving this?

 

[JimG]

I need to start this post by saying I have never attended a norvus ordo Mass celebrated ad orientem, so I don’t know what it actually looks like, but…

Is anyone else annoyed by the diction? Instead of saying “with their backs to the people” (focusing on the negative of the action) we focus on the positive of the orientation by facing Jesus in the tabernacle and say “facing the liturgical east / Jesus in the tabernacle.”

“backs to the people” makes it sound like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about the people in the pews, not worshipping God and by extension trying to increase due reverence.

Has anybody thought why Cardinal Sarah was trying to encourage this?

“The history of “Mass with the priest’s back facing the people” has been a long and amusing one. Let it be said from the beginning that no priest ever thought that he was celebrating Mass with his back to the people. No priest of any age or place ever said to himself: “Now that I am about to consecrate the Host, I will turn my back to the people.” He and everyone were turning to the Lord. That whole imagery of “back to the people” was dreamed up to promote a theological cause. It wanted the Mass to be understood not what it is, a sacrifice, but a friendly meal.”

–Father James V. Schall, S.J., in a recent opinion piece here.

 

[ProVobis]

God bless you for clearing that up for me! I knew that churches had been built in the shape of a cross. My childhood parish was built that way. But I had no idea that the “top” of the cross shape was called liturgical east. Brilliant.

Thanks again!

There is one church near me that has people sitting on all four sides of the altar. That would seem like the true cross (small-t) configuration. Is this what your childhood parish was like?

 

[ProVobis]

I was raised in the Pre-Vatican II Church, I never want to go back to the days of sitting in pews reading the missal while the celebrant and alter boys(girls weren’t allowed) mumbled the prayers of the Mass.

So that means the norms need to be changed for everyone?

And why are they still printing missalettes so people can follow what they hear? The human voice is not perfect. I’ve heard speaker after speaker mispronounce words or make the entire reading so banal that one required something to read.

 

[Gertabelle]

There is one church near me that has people sitting on all four sides of the altar. That would seem like the true cross (small-t) configuration. Is this what your childhood parish was like?

Nope. It had a long center aisle, and two side areas of pews, and the altar at the “top” to form a cross. Incidentally, the priest does face east when saying the OF mass.

My current parish is just a long rectangle with the altar at one end.

However, if viewed from the air, the entire building – with the attached school and gym – might look something like a crooked, lop-sided cross…if you squinted and used your imagination.

 

[ProVobis]

Incidentally, the priest does face east when saying the OF mass.

Does that mean the people have their backs to Christ?

Actually this isn’t funny because as altar boys we were trained to turn in such a way we’d never “turn our backs to God.” People too, when they left the communion rail. It was turning clockwise if you were left of the altar and turning counterclockwise if you were to the right. I’m not kidding you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I need to start this post by saying I have never attended a norvus ordo Mass celebrated ad orientem, so I don’t know what it actually looks like, but…

Is anyone else annoyed by the diction? Instead of saying “with their backs to the people” (focusing on the negative of the action) we focus on the positive of the orientation by facing Jesus in the tabernacle and say “facing the liturgical east / Jesus in the tabernacle.”

“backs to the people” makes it sound like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about the people in the pews, not worshipping God and by extension trying to increase due reverence.

Has anybody thought why Cardinal Sarah was trying to encourage this?

Jesus isn’t in the Tabernacle during the Mass, at the altar, until the Consecration.

In fact, most churches, the Tabernacle is position off to the side in a prominent place, but not at the altar.

So in most churches, the priest would be facing a wall with the statue of the Crucified Christ,

I don’t know why Cardinal Sarah is saying this. But it seems that he’s been corrected by the Pope.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

CatholicSooner;

Not sure which article you are referencing.

Read the headline of this thread, then go to the OP and read the article.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So that means the norms need to be changed for everyone?

And why are they still printing missalettes so people can follow what they hear? The human voice is not perfect. I’ve heard speaker after speaker mispronounce words or make the entire reading so banal that one required something to read.

The norm is established by the Church so that we are in union in our worship. Catholics can visit any parish and know how to follow the Mass, unless of course its in the Extraordinary which they have never experienced.

Before Vatican II, we had missalettes, but some had missiles of their own which they could follow the Mass in Latin. Its how I knew when priests skipped parts, or they mumbled so quickly through, it was difficult to keep up. Also, despite having the English translation on the opposite page from the Latin, it was still less than ideal to try and follow.

For the most part, missalettes are printed so people can follow along, especially the readings which are not the same every week.

Myself, I have a hearing difficulty, so following along in the missalette is a benefit, especially when a female is doing the readings, where I have a hard time hearing higher pitched voices.

For the most part, the parts of the Mass are memorized and many didn’t need the missalette, until the new English Translation came out, and our parish then provided large cards for people to use. We’re still stumbling on it.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is one church near me that has people sitting on all four sides of the altar. That would seem like the true cross (small-t) configuration. Is this what your childhood parish was like?

It’s what my former parish church was like.

The altar would be at the intersection of the vertical and horizontal part of the cross.

People sat on four sides of the altar. The upper vertical part of the cross was actually the original church, built 150 years ago, where the larger bottom part was the newer addition, but it was still over 100 years old.

Amazingly, its still a cathedral style church which is in really good shape. The parish really maintained the building well.

Jim

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

Jesus isn’t in the Tabernacle during the Mass, at the altar, until the Consecration.

In fact, most churches, the Tabernacle is position off to the side in a prominent place, but not at the altar.

So in most churches, the priest would be facing a wall with the statue of the Crucified Christ,

I don’t know why Cardinal Sarah is saying this. But it seems that he’s been corrected by the Pope.

Jim

Oh ok thank you for the clarification!

 

[jeannetherese]

Jesus isn’t in the Tabernacle during the Mass, at the altar, until the Consecration.

Jim

Hi JimR-OCDS
I assist at 4 Catholic churches fairly regularly and, at three of the four, the tabernacle is located in the front of the church.
It is normal to have consecrated hosts in the tabernacle between masses (oftentimes some are taken to the sick or homebound over the course of the week). Sometimes, if Mass attendance is greater than expected, Father will go to the Tabernacle to place additional hosts in his ciborium.
Given this, mightn’t one suggest that Jesus is in the Tabernacle during Mass (as well as made present at the Consecration)?
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
jt

 

[CatholicSooner]

Jesus isn’t in the Tabernacle during the Mass, at the altar, until the Consecration.

Jim

Maybe it is different in different areas, but we pretty much always have consecrated hosts in the tabernacle at all time.

 

[CatholicSooner]

CatholicSooner;

Read the headline of this thread, then go to the OP and read the article.

Jim

It is a bad title. Changes were not rumors. It was a suggestion by Cardinal Sarah. Hardly a rumor.

I don’t think this is over either. There is a big push to bring back ad orientem. And Pope Francis never came out to say it is not a good suggestion or that it won’t happen. Just that there will be not directive for advent

 

[Padres1969]

Hi JimR-OCDS
I assist at 4 Catholic churches fairly regularly and, at three of the four, the tabernacle is located in the front of the church.
It is normal to have consecrated hosts in the tabernacle between masses (oftentimes some are taken to the sick or homebound over the course of the week). Sometimes, if Mass attendance is greater than expected, Father will go to the Tabernacle to place additional hosts in his ciborium.
Given this, mightn’t one suggest that Jesus is in the Tabernacle during Mass (as well as made present at the Consecration)?
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
jt

When you say the “front” of the church, does this mean the tabernacle is behind the congregation?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi JimR-OCDS
I assist at 4 Catholic churches fairly regularly and, at three of the four, the tabernacle is located in the front of the church.
It is normal to have consecrated hosts in the tabernacle between masses (oftentimes some are taken to the sick or homebound over the course of the week). Sometimes, if Mass attendance is greater than expected, Father will go to the Tabernacle to place additional hosts in his ciborium.
Given this, mightn’t one suggest that Jesus is in the Tabernacle during Mass (as well as made present at the Consecration)?
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
jt

The point is that the focus at Mass isn’t the tabernacle, but what is taking place at the altar. Although the tabernacle is located in the front, its generally off to a side area, of prominence, as directed by the Bishop.

Also remember, the priest doesn’t say prayers to Jesus in the tabernacle.

The Eucharistic prayers are to the Father and the priest is Christ en persona, during the Mass.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It is a bad title. Changes were not rumors. It was a suggestion by Cardinal Sarah. Hardly a rumor.

I don’t think this is over either. There is a big push to bring back ad orientem. And Pope Francis never came out to say it is not a good suggestion or that it won’t happen. Just that there will be not directive for advent

Actually, it became rumor among Catholics in many places such as this, that Cardinal Sarah was calling for a change for priest to celebrate Mass Ad Orientum and the Church was about to follow it as the norm.

And there is not a big push to change back to Ad Orientum, but a small push by some Catholics.

I didn’t write the article nor the headline, so don’t blame me for its contents.

Jim

 

[CatholicSooner]

Actually, it became rumor among Catholics in many places such as this, that Cardinal Sarah was calling for a change for priest to celebrate Mass Ad Orientum and the Church was about to follow it as the norm.

And there is not a big push to change back to Ad Orientum, but a small push by some Catholics.

I didn’t write the article nor the headline, so don’t blame me for its contents.

Jim

not blaming you.

But it isn’t rumor. I mean Sarah flat out called for priests to start saying it ad orentem. Nothing rumor about it.

I guess we are arguing semantics.