Vatican, SSPX reported ready to reconcile [CWN]

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good to see our SSPX brothers coming to their senses and coming home. We welcome them with open arms!
 
SaintPatrick333 said:
good to see our SSPX brothers coming to their senses and coming home. We welcome them with open arms!
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Don’t hold your breath regarding that bunch. They’ve come close then backed off before.

BTW, as far as they are concerned, it would be the Church that has come to its senses, not them! 😦
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Don’t hold your breath regarding that bunch. They’ve come close then backed off before.

BTW, as far as they are concerned, it would be the Church that has come to its senses, not them! 😦
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I don’t much care who thinks they won, as long as there is a true reunion;)
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
IMO there won’t be, not with that bunch’s stiff-necked pride.
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It took a long time to get here, we will need to make it easy for them to make correct decisions. There is a certain amount of paranoia in their community, we do not need to make it worse. Regardless of how we got here, let us be thankful for it. Regardless of what occured, they stood against those who would have destroyed the ancient and venerable Mass and forced “the Spirit of Vatican II” down everyone’s throats. They bring a rich trove back to us, the Church needs their fervor and dedication. I welcome them wholeheartedly.
 
Thanks be to God!

Motther Mary, please make your intentions in this matter come true. Amen.
 
hosemonkey said:
It took a long time to get here, we will need to make it easy for them to make correct decisions. There is a certain amount of paranoia in their community, we do not need to make it worse. Regardless of how we got here, let us be thankful for it. Regardless of what occured, they stood against those who would have destroyed the ancient and venerable Mass and forced “the Spirit of Vatican II” down everyone’s throats. They bring a rich trove back to us, the Church needs their fervor and dedication. I welcome them wholeheartedly.
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👍
 
hosemonkey said:
It took a long time to get here, we will need to make it easy for them to make correct decisions. There is a certain amount of paranoia in their community, we do not need to make it worse. Regardless of how we got here, let us be thankful for it. Regardless of what occured, they stood against those who would have destroyed the ancient and venerable Mass and forced “the Spirit of Vatican II” down everyone’s throats. They bring a rich trove back to us, the Church needs their fervor and dedication. I welcome them wholeheartedly.
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While I agree, I think it’s important to note that disobedience was not the answer to the objections. Saints such as Padre Pio were persecuted by corrupt superiors, but they were still obedient to them in the end.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Don’t hold your breath regarding that bunch. They’ve come close then backed off before.

BTW, as far as they are concerned, it would be the Church that has come to its senses, not them! 😦
Click to expand...
A recent article in the Wanderer made a good point (while summerizing an article in the Remnant), basically that It is odd that the Vatican treats new age heretics with kid gloves and allows leftist dissent to go on for 30+ years (LCWR, Bishop William Morris of Toowomba Australia, etc) but when it comes to more Traditionalist or so-called “right-wing” Catholics, then down comes the hammer, along with ex-communication and suspension from clerical functions for them, though heretics like Hans Kung are allowed to remain priests in good standing, despite being declared as being one who “has left the Catholic faith.”

Leftist heretics get wrist-slapped, Traditionalist consevatives get the horns. Obviously this is way oversimplifying things, but there does seem to be a ring of truth to it.
 
comrade1789 said:
A recent article in the Wanderer made a good point (while summerizing an article in the Remnant), basically that It is odd that the Vatican treats new age heretics with kid gloves and allows leftist dissent to go on for 30+ years (LCWR, Bishop William Morris of Toowomba Australia, etc) but when it comes to more Traditionalist or so-called “right-wing” Catholics, then down comes the hammer, along with ex-communication and suspension from clerical functions for them, though heretics like Hans Kung are allowed to remain priests in good standing, despite being declared as being one who “has left the Catholic faith.”
Leftist heretics get wrist-slapped, Traditionalist consevatives get the horns. Obviously this is way oversimplifying things, but there does seem to be a ring of truth to it.
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Sadly, what you say is true, the heretics, as well as our so-called “Catholic” Pro-gay, pro-abortion politicians get a pass, while the good guys get hammered. Sometimes justice is absent, for which some of our shepherds will have to answer. But, we cannot change history, and all parties concerned will have to deal with issues of repentance and forgiveness. That the Prodigal has returned and has been welcomed by a loving Father, without recriminations, is the main point. Thanks be to God, I am glad that mercy has prevailed.
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comrade1789 said:
A recent article in the Wanderer made a good point (while summerizing an article in the Remnant), basically that It is odd that the Vatican treats new age heretics with kid gloves and allows leftist dissent to go on for 30+ years (LCWR, Bishop William Morris of Toowomba Australia, etc) but when it comes to more Traditionalist or so-called “right-wing” Catholics, then down comes the hammer, along with ex-communication and suspension from clerical functions for them, though heretics like Hans Kung are allowed to remain priests in good standing, despite being declared as being one who “has left the Catholic faith.”

Leftist heretics get wrist-slapped, Traditionalist consevatives get the horns. Obviously this is way oversimplifying things, but there does seem to be a ring of truth to it.
Click to expand...
hosemonkey said:
Sadly, what you say is true, the heretics, as well as our so-called “Catholic” Pro-gay, pro-abortion politicians get a pass, while the good guys get hammered. Sometimes justice is absent, for which some of our shepherds will have to answer. But, we cannot change history, and all parties concerned will have to deal with issues of repentance and forgiveness. That the Prodigal has returned and has been welcomed by a loving Father, without recriminations, is the main point. Thanks be to God, I am glad that mercy has prevailed.
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Don’t let those articles mislead you. There are several things at play here that the articles always want to brush aside. Let me see if I can help clarify.

Heresy: There are many things that people say that are heresy, but it does not make them a heretic. For example, Fr. Kung is a priest in good standing with the Catholic Church and a good friend of Pope Benedict XVI. There is a lot of mutual respect while they disagree on some very important points. Everyone knows what they are. However, Fr. Kung does not meet the criteria for heretic, even though many of his statements are heresy.

Excommunication: A person cannot be excommunicated for making a heretical statement. There has to be much more than this. The person has to renounce truth and stubbornly embrace error without any desire to submit to the Church’s authority. Here is the difference between people like Fr. Kung and the bishops of the SSPX.

When Fr. Kung’s license to teach Catholic theology was taken away, he complied. He was told that he could teach generic courses in theology at non-Catholic schools. He has never set foot in a Catholic school to teach theology. He obeyed. This puts him in the good graces of the Holy See. He’s still a problem child, but a manageable one, because he does what he’s told to do.

The bishops of the SSPX were **never **excommunicated for their theological positions. They were never excommunicated for their desire to celebrate the Tridentine Form. They were never excommunicated for disagreeing and questioning certain Vatican II documents.

The bishops of the SSPX were excommunicated because they broke a law that carries with it the penalty of excommunication. The ordination of bishops without the permission of the pope is an automatic excommunication.

How do the priests of the SSPX come to be suspended. There are several laws being violated.
  1. No one may accept ordination from an excommunicated bishop. Such an ordination is illegal.
  2. No priest may celebrate the sacraments without the permission of an Ordinary. Being ordained is not enough. An Ordinary can be either the diocesan bishop or a male religious superior, even a lay brother, as long as he’s the canonical superior.
  3. Any priest who **attempts to celebrate sacraments without permission **is automatically suspended. The Church did not suspend these priests. The law suspended them.
 
  1. In the case of Fr. Kung and the LCWR, the laws that they violate do not carry penalties. A person can be disciplined, as was Fr. Kung, but he cannot be excommunicated or suspended without due process. One must prove to the highest tribunal in the Church that the person has committed such acts of heresy that he or she is beyond reform and needs a stronger medicine.
In the case of the SSPX priests and other Traditionalists, they violated laws that carry an automatic suspension. It has nothing to do with being a Traditionalist or a faithful Catholic. In Roman Law there is no forgiveness, even for saints, if the law carries the penalty of suspension or excommunication. Canon Law is based on Roman Law. Canon Law also excludes the practice of charity. Judges in an ecclesial tribunal may not give someone a pass as an act of charity. They must do exactly as the law says, no matter how much they feel that the person should get another break. If the law says, suspend, they cannot give that second chance. Only the pope can do that. Popes rarely get personally involved in these court cases.

Either you’re penalized because you violated a law that carries the penalty, which is what some Traditionalist clergy have done or you’re penalized because you have committed such crimes that your Ordinary suspends you, in which case you can appeal.

This is very interesting. The priests of the SSPX cannot appeal their suspension, not because they’re trads. They can’t appeal the suspension, because the law says that what they did incurs an automatic suspension. They would have to put the law on trial.

Whereas, if an Ordinary suspends someone like Father Kung, Father has the right to ask the Ordinary to prove that he deserves the suspension. Unless the Ordinary can prove that Father Kung is a heretic that is obstinate and cannot be reformed, he will lose in court. As long as Fr. Kung does what he’s told to do, the Ordinary cannot call him obstinate. If he’s not obstinate, then he’s not a heretic. He’s a Catholic who makes many heretical statements. What my mother used to call a babbling brook.
  1. Finally, Pope Benedict levied another accusation against the SSPX, which anyone can read about it, because he has said it in several places. Actually it’s an accusation that has two parts to it.
The first part is that he has accused them of breaking with the Primacy. That goes into the doctrinal area. Every Catholic must accept that the Pope has the right to command. When you say that you will not obey, you are denying this doctrine.

The second part has to do with Bishop Williamson. The pope has said that Bishop Williamson is an Anti-Semite and had he known this, he would not have lifted his excommunication. The Holy Father considers that grounds for excommunication. As pope, he has the right to excommunicate us, if he does not like the color of our toothbrush. Denying the Shoah is a little more serious, because it compromises the work of the Church with the Jewish community. If I did it, it wouldn’t matter. When a bishop does it, it’s a big deal. This falls into that second area of sentire cum ecclesiam or feeling as the Church feels. In plain English, feeling the way the pope feels. The other bishops of the SSPX stood by and said nothing until the Pope reacted. Guilt of omission.

So to conclude, the penalties have nothing to do with being Trad. T**hey have to do with laws that carry these penalties. ** There have been other bishops excommunicated in recent months who are not Trads for ordaining without permission. It happened in China.

There are other priests who are suspended for celebrating the sacraments without permission and they’re not Trads. That’s why you don’t hear about them. They don’t get as much attention.

The sisters are in a different category. You cannot suspend a religious of Pontifical Right. That is a doctrine of the Council of Trent. Most of the sisters who belong to the LCWR have Pontifical Right. This makes them exempt from almost all kinds of penalties, except those that are explicitly mentioned in Canon Law. That’s why the Pope has assigned a bishop and a team to enter into dialogue with them. The law does not allow for anything else. This kind of situation was not foreseen when Trent created Pontifical Right. Even the pope cannot take away Pontifical Right. Just the opposite. He is personally responsible for all religious of Pontifical Right. If they need help getting back on the right path, he has to provide it, not the local bishop. That’s what Pope Benedict is trying to do now.

Don’t believe everything these writers say. Many of them are very angry people and others are not familiar with the law. Both will miss the fine print in the law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JR:

Thank you very much for that informative response. Several points you have raised which has motivated me to take a deeper look. It might be a few days before I have a response, but I am grateful for the thoroughness of your correction.
 
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