Vatican Storylines: Those Who Are Resisting Benedict XVI

[Gottle_of_Geer]

CathChemNerd:

Well, they (the Neocatechumenals) may not be liberal, but something sure don’t sound right. Reception of the Eucharist at a table rather than in procession? Secret rites (according to the article quoted) that only they know about? A separate hierarchy? It seems to resemble the gnostic sects of the early Church. And if they’ve been given directives by the Holy Father to cease and desist and then don’t…it seems that they may be “more Catholic than the Pope.”

CathChemNerd

They have been doing these things for the whole of the last pontificate, as well as before - if they were wrong to do so, why did JP2 not say so ?​

It’s poor parenting to allow a child to pick up and practice bad habits for several years - nail-biting, say - and the same applies here, for the same reason. So why object to these practices only now ? If they are wrong now - how were they not wrong before ? This is not quite the same issue as the general controversy over the NCW, though it dovetails with it.

It would be entirely wrong to jump to any unfavourable conclusions about them without knowing more about them and the items mentioned. Considering what “conservatives” have complained of having to put up with, it would be reasonable to assume that they will be slower than most to swallow every allegation and slur against other Catholics - such as the NCW, in this instance.

The last issue was interesting - and also rather odd: because there are plenty of things on the Vatican web-site which are not available in all the languages used on the site. Many documents are available only on French. ot Italian - so why make an issue of it only now ? Failing to translate documents may be regrettable, but to call it “resistance”, whether “passive” or otherwise, is going too far.

 

[rlg94086]

I’d never heard of the Neocatechumenates before this thread. I googled and read a bit about them, and they do have an interesting ministry. They’ve also received support from past Popes. However, if Pope Benedict is telling them to do some things differently, they should obey. He hasn’t condemned them as a group; he’s just telling them to bring some of their liturgy in line with the rest of the Church.

He’s given them a 2-year transition period.

Robert

 

[frommi]

Ani Ibi:

It was the Holy Spirit Who elected Pope Benedict XVI. Do you oppose the decision of the Holy Spirit?

Wow, that’s misguided…

Pope Benedict himself said it’s not the holy spirit who elects popes…because we know that through history, we’ve had a few popes that the Holy Spirit would not elect.

For the record, I have no issue with the Bishop of Rome. I think his reflections are certainly theologically sound and redolent of the Catholic faith.

I have an issue with people who are looking for him to only shepherd their ‘corner of the flock’…the ones who believe his job is to wipe out anyone who doesn’t agree…

 

[Mike_Dye]

frommi:

I tend to think I use fact pretty often. I’m not instigating anything, I’m responding to a post in a DISCUSSION forum.

Yes, I know I’m in the creative minority around here.

I am St. Michael the Archangel…You are The Creative minority!Looks like we are both idiots ;making such claims!

 

[Franze]

rlg94086:

I’d never heard of the Neocatechumenates before this thread. I googled and read a bit about them, and they do have an interesting ministry. They’ve also received support from past Popes. However, if Pope Benedict is telling them to do some things differently, they should obey. He hasn’t condemned them as a group; he’s just telling them to bring some of their liturgy in line with the rest of the Church.

He’s given them a 2-year transition period.

Robert

They have a lot of religious vocations, priests and other things, and they are receiving many calumnies.

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

Wow, that’s misguided…

Pope Benedict himself said it’s not the holy spirit who elects popes…because we know that through history, we’ve had a few popes that the Holy Spirit would not elect.

For the record, I have no issue with the Bishop of Rome. I think his reflections are certainly theologically sound and redolent of the Catholic faith.

I have an issue with people who are looking for him to only shepherd their ‘corner of the flock’…the ones who believe his job is to wipe out anyone who doesn’t agree…

That’s a lie. And you know it. If you think the Holy Spirit didn’t elect Benedict XVI then I challenge you to documentation.

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

That’s a lie. And you know it. If you think the Holy Spirit didn’t elect Benedict XVI then I challenge you to documentation.

From a 1997 interview:

Perhaps the final word on the subject should belong to the Dean of the College of Cardinals, Joseph Ratzinger. He was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected pope, and this was his response:

“I would not say so, in the sense that the  	Holy Spirit picks out the pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not  	exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it  	were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us.  	Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense,  	not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only  	assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”

Then the clincher: “There are too many  	contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit would obviously not have  	picked.”

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

From a 1997 interview:

Perhaps the final word on the subject should belong to the Dean of the College of Cardinals, Joseph Ratzinger. He was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected pope, and this was his response:

   “I would not say so, in the sense that the      Holy Spirit picks out the pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not      exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it      were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us.      Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense,      not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only      assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”

   Then the clincher: “There are too many      contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit would obviously not have      picked.”

This does not mean the Holy Spirit didn’t take part in the election. Cardinal Ratzinger was saying the Holy Spirit participates in the election. Seems to me that you are using these qoutes as an excuse not to listen to holy father. Right?

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

This does not mean the Holy Spirit didn’t take part in the election. Cardinal Ratzinger was saying the Holy Spirit participates in the election. You are a heretic.

Wait a minute…

The statement was that the holy spirit ‘elected’ B16.

I pointed out that the theologically, the Holy Spirit doesn’t have a vote.

I never said the Holy Spirit didn’t offer guidance to the electors.

You’re twisting my statement.

But see, again, its an example of being confronted with the words of Cardinal Ratzinger and having to deal with the fact that his point of view is not in line with yours

I am not a heretic…a heresy is the formal rejection of a dogma of the church.

We aren’t questioning a dogma here…the church has never spoken in a dogmatic matter on the issue.

At worst (and I would deny this as well), you could I suppose accuse me of dissent…but not heresy.

Nice try though

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

I think I’m referring to the people who were excited that the Pope’s Bavarian Watchdog was now Pope himself…

They have longed for this era…and I personally think are disapointed that we already aren’t seeing mass celebrated ad orientum worldwide.

Call this presenting fact? Barely. All I see in your posts are mindless contradictions. Your not fooling anyone here on Catholic Answers. I believe the Holy Spirit had final say this time if not the other times.

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

The article forgets to mention the fringe right of the church who assumed B16 was going to crown himself with the papal tiara and wipe out any ‘dissenting’ pastors.

Instead he seems to be molding himself in the image of Paul VI.

Probably a disapointment to the EWTN crowd.

If that’s not heresy, then I don’t know what is.

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

Call this presenting fact? Barely. All I see in your posts are mindless contradictions. Your not fooling anyone here on Catholic Answers. I believe the Holy Spirit had final say this time if not the other times.

Oh…and its a fact that I’m supposed to view the article as a “warning to my unfaithfulness”.

And, if you want to disagree with the Pope about the holy spirit’s role in his election, its a shame you choose not to stand with him on this. After all, the party line you all usually espouse is that you’re loyal to the Pope.

Apparently that loyalty only goes so far.

Maybe you’re the heretic

 

[Shoshana]

On the aside, I wish to apologize as my statement was given too quickly. Disobedience does not necessarily mean ‘new age’…just a feeling I had…

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

Oh…and its a fact that I’m supposed to view the article as a “warning to my unfaithfulness”.

And, if you want to disagree with the Pope about the holy spirit’s role in his election, its a shame you choose not to stand with him on this. After all, the party line you all usually espouse is that you’re loyal to the Pope.

Apparently that loyalty only goes so far.

Maybe you’re the heretic

Once again, I said nothing of the sort. Here’s one for you, the cardinals are not protected from error by the power of the Holy Spirit in their choice of a pope. There are some popes, it is true the Holy Spirit wouldn’t have elected, but that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit didn’t elect this one. How do you explain that fact that no pope has defected from the Catholic faith. Now are you going to say the Holy Spirit didn’t elect this pope? Jesus said it himself, “You didn’t choose me, but I chose you”.

Try this one by Rev. Mark Gantley
Link

frommi:

I have an issue with those who are looking for him to only shepard “their corner of the flock”… the ones who believe his job is to wipe out anyone who doesn’t agree…

Since when did we ever say anything about the holy father being that way? Name one. That qoute there you made is just a slander against us devout Catholics.

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

Once again, I said nothing of the sort. Here’s one for you, the cardinals are not protected from error by the power of the Holy Spirit in their choice of a pope. There are some popes, it is true the Holy Spirit wouldn’t have elected, but that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit didn’t elect this one. How do you explain that fact that no pope has defected from the Catholic faith. Now are you going to say the Holy Spirit didn’t elect this pope? Jesus said it himself, “You didn’t choose me, but I chose you”.

Try this one by Rev. Mark Gantley
Link

Since when did we ever say anything about the holy father being that way? Name one. That qoute there you made is just a slander against us devout Catholics.

So Fr. Gantley’s theological credentials are greater than Cardinal Ratzinger’s.

And this idea of slander against ‘devout catholics’…that could imply i’m slandering myself…because I think I’m pretty devout.

 

[bones_IV]

I trust EWTN’s opinions, and besides you said “I have an issue with those who are looking for him to only shepard their corner of the flock…the ones who think his job is to wipe out anyone who doesn’t agree…”. And in answer to my original post in this thread you said “the article forgets to mention the fringe right of the Church who assumed B16 was going to crown himself with the papal tiara and wipe out any dissenting pastors. He seems to be molding himself into another Paul VI. Probably a dissapointment to the EWTN crowd”. To say these two things qouted above is not a devout Catholicism. “Wiping out dissenting pastors”, seems like you have an issue with the pope’s authority to bind and loose. Once again you skipped around the bush, like you did throughout the whole thread.

 

[Walking_Home]

It seems Mr. Frommi,

That you are very, very upset that Pope Benedict, has told you all to straighten out your literagy.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

Because of name calling an a general lack of civility and charity, this thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated.

Walt