Vatican takes on tense question of salvation for the Jewish people

[friardchips]

I must have missed the sermon on the mount where Jesus proclaimed Himself a Catholic.

‘Catholic’ means ‘all embracing’ and our Lord was most definitely ‘all embracing’. Coupled with the fact that He gave the keys to His Kingdom to St. Peter and we can categorically say that although Catholics are in Him we are most certainly His Bride, His body, made up of His flock. The duty is to go and love others as He loves us. It is the Creator who converts through us or directly. Love converts via grace.

 

[jinglebelle]

‘Catholic’ means ‘all embracing’ and our Lord was most definitely ‘all embracing’. Coupled with the fact that He gave the keys to His Kingdom to St. Peter and we can categorically say that although Catholics are in Him we are most certainly His Bride, His body, made up of His flock. The duty is to go and love others as He loves us. It is the Creator who converts through us or directly. Love converts via grace.

If ten people from all over the USA have to travel to Chicago,all have differing setting out points with the same destination in mind. They all reach there just varied ways of getting there but all valid.Same with religion,you can,of course,categorically convert to your hearts delight

 

[JimG]

If ten people from all over the USA have to travel to Chicago,all have differing setting out points with the same destination in mind. They all reach there just varied ways of getting there but all valid.Same with religion,you can,of course,categorically convert to your hearts delight

But the Church has never proposed or accepted the idea of religious indifferentism. She runs the direct flight to Chicago, no need to walk or hitch-hike.

 

[Brendan_64]

I must have missed the sermon on the mount where Jesus proclaimed Himself a Catholic.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Christ built a Church and he appointed Peter as head of that Church on Earth and gave him the authority to bind and loose. Christ specifically established a Church (not many Churches, but one single Church) with an Earthly head (a pope) and he commissioned His followers to go out to all nations and, “baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, i.e. baptise them as Christians.

Christ did not preach that there are many roads to Salvation, He preached that there was only one gate to Salvation, the narrow gate. The broad path and the wide gate leads to destruction.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Found this while doing some research on this topic.

"While Pope Benedict does not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ, experts say, he does clearly suggest the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

In terms of the proper Christian attitude in the meantime, Benedict approvingly quotes Cistercian abbess and Biblical writer Hildegard Brem: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.”

Although Benedict XVI stipulated in the first volume of his book that he writes as a private theologian rather than authoritatively as head of the Catholic church, his comments inevitably carry weight as indications of the way Benedict is likely to approach these questions as pope.

The question of conversion has long been among the most explosive in the arena of Catholic/Jewish relations. Still today, perceptions in the Jewish world that Christians are targeting them for missionary efforts produce sharply negative reactions.

Benedict XVI acknowledges that the question of “Israel’s mission” in God’s plan has a painful past.

“We realize today with horror how many misunderstandings with grave consequences have weighed down our history,” he writes. Yet, the pope says, “the beginnings of a correct understanding have always been there, waiting to be rediscovered, however deep the shadows.”

The key to that correct understanding, Benedict writes, lies in the Biblical notion of the “times of the Gentiles.”

The charge given by Jesus to carry the Gospel to the ends of the earth, Benedict says, implies a sequence: first the “full number” of the Gentiles comes to the faith, and only then the Jews. He quotes St. Bernard of Clairvaux’s advice to one of his predecessors, Pope Eugene III, that “a determined time has been fixed” for the conversion of the Jews “that cannot be anticipated.”

Benedict says that in the early church, the urgency of evangelization wasn’t based so much on the idea that every human being had to know Christ in order to be saved, but rather on a “grand conception of history,” according to which the Gospel had to reach all the nations in order for the world to fulfill its destiny.

Until God’s plan comes to fruition, Benedict says, the “particular task” of the disciples of Christ is to carry the faith to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.

The question of whether including Jews in the church’s missionary efforts is legitimate has long been a debated point in Catholic circles."

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today…jews-pope-says

 

[friardchips]

Furthermore, after Baptism, we are CONFIRMED into the faith.

The mission is to love. To be disciples of love. People are drawn to those who are loving. Not necessarily in sentimental ways but true and good ways. The Creator converts via grace, and we know this is true because, if it were not for His grace there would be no “good” at all. Otherwise, faith can become an anything goes religion. Grace and good living brings people together in communion and the hope is always that people will be converted to the Christian faith. There is no judgment here. There is no forcing religion on others. But it is okay to plant seeds. When, where and how definitely takes prayerful discernment and guidance via various means. But always hope-filled. Faith is personal but it is to be shared. Light is not to be kept under the table! (As the NT passage says).

 

[JimG]

Found this while doing some research on this topic.

"While Pope Benedict does not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ, experts say, he does clearly suggest the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

In terms of the proper Christian attitude in the meantime, Benedict approvingly quotes Cistercian abbess and Biblical writer Hildegard Brem: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.”

Although Benedict XVI stipulated in the first volume of his book that he writes as a private theologian rather than authoritatively as head of the Catholic church, his comments inevitably carry weight as indications of the way Benedict is likely to approach these questions as pope.

The question of conversion has long been among the most explosive in the arena of Catholic/Jewish relations. Still today, perceptions in the Jewish world that Christians are targeting them for missionary efforts produce sharply negative reactions.

Benedict XVI acknowledges that the question of “Israel’s mission” in God’s plan has a painful past.

“We realize today with horror how many misunderstandings with grave consequences have weighed down our history,” he writes. Yet, the pope says, “the beginnings of a correct understanding have always been there, waiting to be rediscovered, however deep the shadows.”

The key to that correct understanding, Benedict writes, lies in the Biblical notion of the “times of the Gentiles.”

The charge given by Jesus to carry the Gospel to the ends of the earth, Benedict says, implies a sequence: first the “full number” of the Gentiles comes to the faith, and only then the Jews. He quotes St. Bernard of Clairvaux’s advice to one of his predecessors, Pope Eugene III, that “a determined time has been fixed” for the conversion of the Jews “that cannot be anticipated.”

Benedict says that in the early church, the urgency of evangelization wasn’t based so much on the idea that every human being had to know Christ in order to be saved, but rather on a “grand conception of history,” according to which the Gospel had to reach all the nations in order for the world to fulfill its destiny.

Until God’s plan comes to fruition, Benedict says, the “particular task” of the disciples of Christ is to carry the faith to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.

The question of whether including Jews in the church’s missionary efforts is legitimate has long been a debated point in Catholic circles."

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today…jews-pope-says

All this is interesting, and I have no expertise to doubt the theological speculation. Yet Jesus himself operated in the exact opposite fashion. He preached first and primarily to the Jews as the inheritors of the covenant. The gospels often take pains to mention the ways in which he fulfills the prophecies of the old covenant. Indeed, it would have made little sense for him to preach to the Gentiles: they had not been prepared as a people for the coming of a messiah who would fulfill the old covenant.

I have read in a book which I have somewhere but can’t find at the moment, that it is likely that the majority of the Jewish community did become Christian prior to the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. Even before that, Paul had been preaching to the Gentles. Was it then with the great commission given prior to the ascension that the mission shifted from Jews to Gentiles? At what point was it decided that the Church need no longer evangelize Jews?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

All this is interesting, and I have no expertise to doubt the theological speculation. Yet Jesus himself operated in the exact opposite fashion. He preached first and primarily to the Jews as the inheritors of the covenant. The gospels often take pains to mention the ways in which he fulfills the prophecies of the old covenant. Indeed, it would have made little sense for him to preach to the Gentiles: they had not been prepared as a people for the coming of a messiah who would fulfill the old covenant.

I have read in a book which I have somewhere but can’t find at the moment, that it is likely that the majority of the Jewish community did become Christian prior to the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. Even before that, Paul had been preaching to the Gentles. Was it then with the great commission given prior to the ascension that the mission shifted from Jews to Gentiles? At what point was it decided that the Church need no longer evangelize Jews?

You are free to think and act as you choose. I take guidance from this theologian because he is a highly respected expert. That is why we have the Church and it’s theologians, for guidances otherwise we would all be doing as we please and how we interpret Jesus actions and scripture in general.

Now another Pope has said essentially the same. I tend to take notice of what they say.

 

[JimG]

You are free to think and act as you choose. I take guidance from this theologian because he is a highly respected expert. That is why we have the Church and it’s theologians, for guidances otherwise we would all be doing as we please and how we interpret Jesus actions and scripture in general.

Now another Pope has said essentially the same. I tend to take notice of what they say.

A theologian’s job is to apply the intellect to the truths of the Faith, drawing out their meaning. There is nothing at all wrong with that. Theologians don’t always agree with each other or reach the same conclusions.

I’m not questioning whether there ought to be a “corporate mission” to the Jews. I think that would be a redundancy. We don’t have a corporate mission to any other particular group either. I’m just pointing out that Jesus himself did have a corporate mission to the Jews: They were his people, the people of the covenant. He preached almost exclusively to them. Certainly no one should preclude individual Jews from embracing the new covenant, and there have been many who have done so.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t think there is a dilemma

OK, but can you elaborate upon your view concerning why there is no dilemma? Maybe “dilemma” is too strong a word: how about “debate”?

 

[meltzerboy]

From the commission document that is being discussed here:

"The universality of salvation in Jesus Christ and God’s unrevoked covenant with Israel

Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith. Confessing the universal and therefore also exclusive mediation of salvation through Jesus Christ belongs to the core of Christian faith. So too does the confession of the one God, the God of Israel, who through his revelation in Jesus Christ has become totally manifest as the God of all peoples, insofar as in him the promise has been fulfilled that all peoples will pray to the God of Israel as the one God (cf. Is 56:1-8). The document “Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church” published by the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews in 1985 therefore maintained that the Church and Judaism cannot be represented as “two parallel ways to salvation”, but that the Church must “witness to Christ as the Redeemer for all” (No.I, 7). The Christian faith confesses that God wants to lead all people to salvation, that Jesus Christ is the universal mediator of salvation, and that there is no “other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved” (Acts 4:12)."

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/vatican_issues_new_document_on_christian-jewish_dialogue_/1193274

It should be noted–as I have several times before–that Judaism does not believe its faith is the only one that leads to salvation. Further, the basis of Judaism is not even salvation but rather obedience to the will of G-d regardless of whether or not there is an afterlife. The latter is not, and should not be, our concern in this earthly life.

 

[Brendan_64]

Further, the basis of Judaism is not even salvation but rather obedience to the will of G-d regardless of whether or not there is an afterlife. The latter is not, and should not be, our concern in this earthly life.

Meltzerboy, do Jews pray for the dead? And if so why do you do so? I’m interested to know.

 

[eazyduzit]

Found this while doing some research on this topic.

"While Pope Benedict does not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ, experts say, he does clearly suggest the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

In terms of the proper Christian attitude in the meantime, Benedict approvingly quotes Cistercian abbess and Biblical writer Hildegard Brem: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.”

Although Benedict XVI stipulated in the first volume of his book that he writes as a private theologian rather than authoritatively as head of the Catholic church, his comments inevitably carry weight as indications of the way Benedict is likely to approach these questions as pope.

The question of conversion has long been among the most explosive in the arena of Catholic/Jewish relations. Still today, perceptions in the Jewish world that Christians are targeting them for missionary efforts produce sharply negative reactions.

Benedict XVI acknowledges that the question of “Israel’s mission” in God’s plan has a painful past.

“We realize today with horror how many misunderstandings with grave consequences have weighed down our history,” he writes. Yet, the pope says, “the beginnings of a correct understanding have always been there, waiting to be rediscovered, however deep the shadows.”

The key to that correct understanding, Benedict writes, lies in the Biblical notion of the “times of the Gentiles.”

The charge given by Jesus to carry the Gospel to the ends of the earth, Benedict says, implies a sequence: first the “full number” of the Gentiles comes to the faith, and only then the Jews. He quotes St. Bernard of Clairvaux’s advice to one of his predecessors, Pope Eugene III, that “a determined time has been fixed” for the conversion of the Jews “that cannot be anticipated.”

Benedict says that in the early church, the urgency of evangelization wasn’t based so much on the idea that every human being had to know Christ in order to be saved, but rather on a “grand conception of history,” according to which the Gospel had to reach all the nations in order for the world to fulfill its destiny.

Until God’s plan comes to fruition, Benedict says, the “particular task” of the disciples of Christ is to carry the faith to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.

The question of whether including Jews in the church’s missionary efforts is legitimate has long been a debated point in Catholic circles."

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today…jews-pope-says

The time for the conversion of the Jews is now. Scripture says the Gospel is for the Jew first and then for the Greek. This is God’s order and we are to follow it, and not lean on our own wisdom.

There are organizations that target Jews for salvation such as the Jews for Jesus.
Sid Roth preaches to gatherings of hundreds of Russian Jews in which over 90% accept Jesus.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

The time for the conversion of the Jews is now. Scripture says the Gospel is for the Jew first and then for the Greek. This is God’s order and we are to follow it, and not lean on our own wisdom.

There are organizations that target Jews for salvation such as the Jews for Jesus.
Sid Roth preaches to gatherings of hundreds of Russian Jews in which over 90% accept Jesus.

As a Pentecostal you can do as you please.

Catholics listen to the wisdom of our Bishops and Magisterium.

Catholics fall into two groups:

1. Those who hear Rome and do as they please.
2. Those who hear Rome and do as Rome advises

I veer into the second category. When two Bishops who are/were Popes say the same thing, I listen and pay attention.

Having said that, It isn’t dogma/doctrine so Catholics are not required to follow. On the other hand it is an educated, thoroughly informed and researched stance.

 

[Tigre]

I think this dilemma for the Church is part of an even larger issue, namely, that of reconciling Catholicism’s historical roots within Judaism and accepting the Word of G-d as revealed in the Hebrew Bible while, at the same time, believing in the new revelation of Jesus and the Gospels. It might have been easier for the Church to break from Judaism and its Torah completely but it did not choose to do so, most likely since Jesus in His role as the Messiah, as well as most of His Apostles, has His roots in the Jewish faith. Due to its steadfastness toward the moral teachings found in the Hebrew Bible and its simultaneous insistence that the Word of G-d is, finally, fully revealed in the New Testament, there is bound to be a certain tension within the Catholic and the larger Christian faith.

The larger issue is simple: Is Jesus Christ the Hebrew Messiah or not?

The above is measured and respectful, but the dilemma is framed based on the answer to that question being “no.” If Christ is not the Hebrew Messiah, then it must follow that the new revelation of Jesus and the Gospels is misguided at best or blasphemy at worst, but in either event wrong.

If the answer is “yes,” then the dilemma is Judaism is in schism with modern Judaism on one side and Christianity on the other side.

 

[meltzerboy]

The larger issue is simple: Is Jesus Christ the Hebrew Messiah or not?

The above is measured and respectful, but the dilemma is framed based on the answer to that question being “no.” If Christ is not the Hebrew Messiah, then it must follow that the new revelation of Jesus and the Gospels is misguided at best or blasphemy at worst, but in either event wrong.

If the answer is “yes,” then the dilemma is Judaism is in schism with modern Judaism on one side and Christianity on the other side.

As I understand it, the core issue is whether the Messiah is supposed to be G-d and whether G-d is Trinitarian. For Jews, the answer to both questions is no; for Christians, the answer is yes.

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzerboy, do Jews pray for the dead? And if so why do you do so? I’m interested to know.

I do pray for the dead, as do many Jews, and I believe in an afterlife. Some Jews do not pray for the dead, however. In either case, the hope of salvation is not the main purpose of our lives here on earth. The main purpose is to “repair the holes” in the Creation by helping others who are in need. Judaism focuses on behavior with regard to others, which is thought to be more important than faith. The Law provides us with an invaluable guide toward moral behavior.

 

[meltzerboy]

I agree with you, MB.

Marcione of Sinope, I think, was one early Christian leader who wanted to do as above, break from Judaism.
In his attempt to do so, as you probably know, he instigated the creation of a new, christian canon–very similar to what we have today.

.

And Marcionism is regarded by the Church as heretical.

 

[Brendan_64]

I do pray for the dead, as do many Jews, and I believe in an afterlife. Some Jews do not pray for the dead, however. In either case, the hope of salvation is not the main purpose of our lives here on earth. The main purpose is to “repair the holes” in the Creation by helping others who are in need. Judaism focuses on behavior with regard to others, which is thought to be more important than faith. The Law provides us with an invaluable guide toward moral behavior.

Many thanks.

 

[Tigre]

As I understand it, the core issue is whether the Messiah is supposed to be G-d and whether G-d is Trinitarian. For Jews, the answer to both questions is no; for Christians, the answer is yes.

We agree then that the Messiah question is the nub of the issue.

I’m glad to hear you do believe in an afterlife. I understand it is optional, but I cannot imagine being a believing Jew without the hope of an afterlife. I would feel trapped in a Camus novel. That is just me though.

Peace to you Meltzerboy.