Vatican theologians study issue of limbo

[Matt16_18]

Neithan:

From *De Fide *documents we must accept that ‘Limbo’ where the unbaptised, and the invincible ignorant go, is a part of Hell.

One must always be aware of the way the word “Hell” is being used in Church documents. Sometimes Hell means the place of the damned, but often this is not the case, and Hell only means the abode of the dead. In the Nicene Creed, we say that Christ “descended to Hell”, and that only means that Christ descended with St. Dismas to “Paradise”, i.e. Abraham’s bosom – the limbus patrum.

To say that those that die in invincible ignorance descend to Hell does NOT mean that they must be eternally damned. The invincibly ignorant may go to Heaven – but they will not go there before their ignorance is removed by the light of grace. Also, the invincibly ignorant may need to be purged of the last remnants of their inordinate self-love before they enter Heaven. Personally, I don’t think that invincibly ignorant adults that died in a state of grace go to the limbo of the infants.

The only people in Heaven are Catholics, the members of the Church Triumphant. If there are any people now in Heaven that died as invincibly ignorant Hindus, Buddhists, or Lutherans, they are in Heaven as ex-Hindus, ex-Buddhists, and ex-Lutherans that have been finally enlightened to the fullness of truth. There are not 30,000 Protestant denominations in Heaven whose members still don’t agree that there is only ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

But isn’t Purgatory technically a part of Heaven?

You could just as easily say that Purgatory is a part of Hell, if all you mean by Hell is that place in the abode of the dead where souls are being purified of their remnants of their inordinate self-love.

I would hesitate to offer up sacrifices/penances/indulgences for souls whom are technically in Hell …

Why? Purgatory is a part of Hell-Hades-Sheol-“abode of the dead”. It is a holy and good thing to offer sacrifices/penances/indulgences for souls in Purgatory. Why not do the same for the souls of aborted infants in the limbo of the infants? The Church has no prohibitions against offering Masses for the souls of aborted infants.

 

[Matt16_18]

They disregarded all the commandments of the LORD, their God, and made for themselves two molten calves; they also made a sacred pole and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. They immolated their sons and daughters by fire …
2Kings 17:16-17

The Israelites and the Judeans from their youth have done only what is evil in my eyes; the Israelites did nothing but provoke me with the works of their hands, says the LORD. …They built high places to Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, and immolated their sons and daughters to Molech, bringing sin upon Judah; this I never commanded them, nor did it even enter my mind that they should practice such abominations.
Jeremiah 32:30 & 35Is burning an infant as a sacrifice to demons a ritual that bestows sanctifying grace upon the infants?

What real differnce is there between aborting an infant and burning an infant in a temple dedicated to demons?

 

[crazyage3]

Why should an unbaptized child be stuck in limbo for something his/her parents did not do?? Doesnt sound fair to me. Isnt it possible that an angel or baptises the child upon entering the kingdom? I really believe children are innocent. They all will go to heaven.

 

[Matt16_18]

crazyage3:

Why should an unbaptized child be stuck in limbo for something his/her parents did not do??

Why should all of humanity be affected by the sin of Adam?

Doesnt sound fair to me. Isnt it possible that an angel or baptises the child upon entering the kingdom? I really believe children are innocent. They all will go to heaven.

What are you willing to do to help these aborted infants get to heaven?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt16_18:

And yet, not one of these quotes says that an aborted infant would be eternally deprived of the beatific vision.

I understand these magisterial quotes this way: aborted infants do NOT go straight to heaven. These unfortunate souls are suffering in some manner because they have been denied the milk of human kindness. These murdered children need help from the Church Militant, and that is why we should offer up prayers, personal sacrifices and Masses for these poor abused children - so that they can be healed of the wounds that have been inflicted upon them.

A hardcore Feeneyite won’t offer a Mass for aborted children, and a person that believes that aborted children go straight to Heaven won’t bother either. It seems to me that both groups are doing exactly what Satan would desire.

I agree that Church doctrine does not affirm that aborted infants absolutely go to heaven. Yet, I do believe they can go to heaven, if God chooses to extra-sacramentally sanctify the infant in the womb. One must be supernaturally born from above to enter heaven, even if yer an infant.

The Sacrament of Baptism confers baptismal grace ex opere operato. Our prayers for infants who are in danger of dying without the sacrament of baptism confers grace *ex opere operantis. *I agree that we ought not to don’t discount the power of such a prayer.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt16_18,

Once an infant dies, I don’t believe our prayers will be efficacious for reversing the particular judgement of God such that those who die in original sin will later be in heaven. Once in hell by the particular judgement of God, always in hell I think. Thus, offering a Mass for the dead implies that those who died were already justified by God either sacramentally or extra-sacramentally before death, but suffering the temporal punishment of purgatory for actual sin (Church Suffering). As I understand it, it is theologicaly impossible for infants to be in purgatory.

What we should be praying for are the children who are already conceived and alive, in danger of death, so that God extra-sacramentally sanctifies (ex opere operantis) these children before death, before they are aborted or otherwise pass away prior to receiving the Sacrament of Baptism (ex opere operato).

 

[hurst]

Superstar905:

I suppose though, that since FAITH is necessary for Baptism, and a Child is not yet able to have FAITH, then I suppose the one doing the Baptism’s faith is what’s considered?

I’m not sure on this.

You are mistaken. Baptism does not require faith to be valid. It is not required in the recipient (or its parents) to be valid (though the parents must agree to raise the child in the Catholic religion). Neither is it required in the one performing the baptism (though they must intend to do what the Church means to do). In fact, it is baptism that gives the gift of Faith to the recipient. (“What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”) This is a big distinction between protestant and Catholic belief.

hurst

 

[stanley123]

crazyage3:

Why should an unbaptized child be stuck in limbo for something his/her parents did not do?? Doesnt sound fair to me. Isnt it possible that an angel or baptises the child upon entering the kingdom? I really believe children are innocent. They all will go to heaven.

Why bother with Baptism for children if all unbaptised children go to heaven anyway?

 

[hurst]

itsjustdave1988:

Once an infant dies, I don’t believe our prayers will be efficacious for reversing the particular judgement of God such that those who die in original sin will later be in heaven. … As I understand it, it is theologicaly impossible for infants to be in purgatory.

What we should be praying for are the children who are already conceived and alive, in danger of death, …

This reminded me of a verse which I admittedly do not understand, but which seems relevant to the discussion

1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

I don’t know of any current teaching in the Church that encourages baptism for those who have died without it. But then again, there seems to be plenty of uncertainty of what happens. Could it be that they go to a holding place until someone is baptized for them, similar to how the ancients went to Limbo until Christ preached to them? For then they will neither go to an irreversible judgment of hell, nor yet to the vision of God in heaven.

Perhaps you can comment on this aspect?

hurst

 

[Matt16_18]

itsjustdave1988:

I agree that Church doctrine does not affirm that aborted infants absolutely go to heaven. Yet, I do believe they can go to heaven, if God chooses to extra-sacramentally sanctify the infant in the womb. One must be supernaturally born from above to enter heaven, even if yer an infant.

Certainly the Church teaches that God is not bound by his sacraments, so we are in agreement that God can extra-sacramentally sanctify an infant.CCC 1257 … *God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.*What I see you saying is that God is limited to extra-sacramentally sancitfying only those children that are living in the womb. I don’t agree with this. A parent of an aborted child can come to contrition for their sin. Can they not beseech God for mercy for their child after they come to their senses? What about the children of invincibly ignorant pagans that died before they reached the age of reason? Is all hope for the heavenly beatitude lost for these children? A hyper-Calvinist would have no problem believing that God sends to the lake of fire pagan infants, but a Catholic should have a much more merciful conception of God than a hyper-Calvinist.

Did the Jewish infants that were circumcised, but died before the age of reason, go straight to Heaven? No, they did not. They went to Sheol where they were sanctified after Jesus died and resurrected. These Jewish infants had to have the effects of original sin removed before they could enter heaven. This was accomplished by these infants being immersed into the death and resurrection of Christ – which is what the outward signs of the Sacrament of Baptism signify.

I simply don’t see any reason at all why God cannot still bestow sanctifying grace to infants after their death.

Once an infant dies, I don’t believe our prayers will be efficacious for reversing the particular judgement of God such that those who die in original sin will later be in heaven.

Why would God render a particular judgement of damnation to an infant that has committed no personal sin?

Once in hell by the particular judgement of God, always in hell I think.

If you mean by “hell”, the abode of the eternally the damned that will be cast into the lake of fire at that end of time, then I agree. But one must always be careful about what Church documents mean when they use the word hell. Hell can mean purgatory, the limbus patrum, the limbus infantum …

Thus, offering a Mass for the dead implies that those who died were already justified by God either sacramentally or extra-sacramentally before death, but suffering the temporal punishment of purgatory for actual sin (Church Suffering).

This is certainly true for adults that have received their particular judgement. I don’t see that this necessarily applies to aborted infants, the children of miscarriages, children that died before they were culpable for committing sin, etc.

As I understand it, it is theologicaly impossible for infants to be in purgatory.

Seems a reasonable thing to assume to me. An infant could not commit a personal sin since the infant has not yet reached the age of reason. How could an infant ever incur the temporal punishment due sin?

What we should be praying for are the children who are already conceived and alive, in danger of death, so that God extra-sacramentally sanctifies (ex opere operantis) these children before death, before they are aborted or otherwise pass away prior to receiving the Sacrament of Baptism (ex opere operato).

We should be doing that too. But we should also not be telling parents that have repented of the sin of abortion that Catholic Church teaches that their sin has permanently destroyed their children’s chances of ever seeing Heaven.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt16_18,

What I see you saying is that God is limited to extra-sacramentally sancitfying only those children that are living in the womb.

No. Certainly God can do what he wishes. I’m simply asserting that according to Catholic doctine as I understand it, we don’t pray for anybody to become justified after death. Our prayers for the dead are for those already justified but who are in purgatory.

What I’m trying to do is ensure that Catholic theology (free opinion) is governed by Catholic doctrine (sententia certa), and not the other way around. We have a revealed religion. We can certainly reason from what has been revealed to better understand that revelation. However, what is not revealed, is left to speculation. Authentic Catholic speculative theology ought never contradict Catholic doctrine.

I believe that it is Catholic doctrine that only those in a wayfaring state (ie. living on earth) can be justified. I’ll check my sources, however. This is not to limit God’s power, but instead bound Catholic speculative theology (free opinion) within Catholic doctrine (sententia certa).

According to Pope Benedict XVI, “The work of the theologian, must, therefore, be carried out in communion with the living voice of the church, that is, with the living magisterium of the church and under its authority.” I’m just trying to follow this principle.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt16_18:

But we should also not be telling parents that have repented of the sin of abortion that Catholic Church teaches that their sin has permanently destroyed their children’s chances of ever seeing Heaven.

I agree. But I don’t look merely to their actions as parents to decide the fate of the children.

God blesses some for the faith of others. We can pray for the children of sinners and have a pious hope that our prayers are answered. I don’t expect that aborted children are automatically in hell, that is, if my prayers have been answered by God.

The Catholic Church has not even hinted that “hell” according to Lyons II and Florence meant “hell of the damned” for the wicked, but for those who die in original sin it means a state where the non-justified dead can gain justification by our prayers. Such a speculation would be a totally novel understanding of the teaching of these Ecumenical Councils, and contrary to at least the common teaching of the Church, and likely to be contrary to sententia certa and/or *de fide *dogma of the Church.

 

[son_of_pio]

As a father who has a son stillborn 7 yrs ago I find this slightly troubling. It was nice have somewhere to hang your hopes on. Now…who knows where my son is??

 

[Matt16_18]

itsjustdave 1988:

I’m simply asserting that according to Catholic doctine as I understand it, we don’t pray for anybody to become justified after death. …

The Catholic Church has not even hinted that “hell” according to Lyons II and Florence meant “hell of the damned” for the wicked, but for those who die in original sin it means a state where the non-justified dead can gain justification by our prayers.

Aren’t you contradicting yourself? First you say that the Catholic Church does not teach that the Church Militant should pray for anyone to be justified after death, then you say that “non-justified dead can gain justification” by the prayers of the Church Militant.

 

[Matt16_18]

son of pio:

As a father who has a son stillborn 7 yrs ago I find this slightly troubling. It was nice have somewhere to hang your hopes on. Now…who knows where my son is??

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. …

 

[Ghosty]

As a father who has a son stillborn 7 yrs ago I find this slightly troubling. It was nice have somewhere to hang your hopes on. Now…who knows where my son is??

God knows, and you can hang your hopes on Him.

Remember, the only people who’s destination we know are the saints in Heaven. Everyone else is a mystery covered by hope. Most view Limbo as a non-hopeful place, because it is seperated from God. It’s unlikely that the concept of Limbo would be deemed heretical or wrong, just that it would further lose whatever minimal endorsement it had as being right. I can’t imagine that it would be deemed an inappropriate hope for one’s child, if that is really your hope.

Remember, though, that the reason for reevaluating Limbo has less to do with the idea that the babies might be in Hell than it does with accepting the fact that they may be in Heaven.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Neithan]

We should all realise that Limbo is *not *an unhappy fate. Quite the opposite. Souls there are perfectly naturally happy. Look at a young child who is unbaptised when he/she is in a moment of perfect, untainted joy–innocent, care-free and jubilant. Existing in that state for all eternity is certainly nothing to cry about. Yes we are worried that they will not enjoy the Beatific Vision, but St. Thomas explains that the souls in Limbo experience neither sorrow nor pain for their deprivation of God, because they had no natural claim to Him. Keep in mind the awesome gift which baptism gives us: *Divine Life. *This is not something we have a right to, nor deserve. It is an awesome transformation of our very nature. When a soul dies without being baptised, they have not *lost *God. They never had Him to begin with. If one dies with original sin only, they have neither lost nor offended Him, subsequently they will neither possess Him nor be punished by Him; they will rest in perfect natural happiness.

Also we should keep in mind that we will suffer no sorrow or pain for souls we have loved on earth who may not be with us in Heaven. This would be contrary to the glorious Blessedness which we will experience.

St. Thomas uses the analogy that human beings sometimes wish we could fly like a bird, but we are not truly pained or sorrowful because we can not, as it is not in our nature. If however, we once had majestic wings and have lost these, we *would *be in pain and sorrow. The first case describes those in Limbo who were never baptised, the latter those who were baptised but died in sin.

With this in mind, any kind of sacrifices\penances\indulgences to alleviate the ‘suffering’ of the souls in Limbo is wasted–they simply do not suffer, and they are not in communion with the Church. We are admonished to focus our efforts on the Church Suffering in Purgatory, whom we *can *and *should *help. Leave the fate of Limbo to the mercy of God.

itsjustdave1988:

Once in hell by the particular judgement of God, always in hell I think.

Can we not treat Limbo as an exception, as was Abraham’s Bosom? St. Thomas is of the opinion that they are the same place. Now, Christ opened the Particular Judgement by rescuing the soul’s in Abraham’s Bosom, which was a part of Hell. Is it not possible to believe that He may minister to the dead in Limbo before the Last Judgement occurs? *All *will be resurrected at this time, and perhaps the dead of Limbo, once their bodies are restored to them, will be given a last chance to make an act of Faith, Hope and Love for God, be baptised and enter the glory of Heaven.

The Church has taught that Purgatory will cease to exist at the General Judgement, and I am inclined to believe that so will Limbo. In the end, our ultimate destiny is Heaven or Hell. I think that neither Purgatory nor Limbo are physical places (unlike the future Heaven and Hell to come), therefore following the General Resurrection they will no longer be accessible.

I do not think that the unborn/unbaptised children nor invincibly ignorant are automatically, extraordinarily sanctified by God. This takes the awesome power and unfathomable generosity of God out of the Sacraments, and makes it seem as if a soul has a *right *to them. We do not. Perhaps fervent prayer can prevail on God to sanctify the unborn, but most probably go to Limbo. Again I think that Christ will give them a chance to be with God at the end of time.

 

[Matt16_18]

Neithan:

Existing in that state for all eternity is certainly nothing to cry about. … When a soul dies without being baptised, they have not lost God. They never had Him to begin with. If one dies with original sin only, they have neither lost nor offended Him, subsequently they will neither possess Him nor be punished by Him; they will rest in perfect natural happiness.

I don’t agree with these speculations, nor must any Catholic accept this as anything more than mere speculation. CCC 398 … Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. …God’s plan was for these infants to see the beatific vision. Not because they deserved it, not because they earned it, but solely because God has willed it out of the depths of his unfathomable love. Do I believe that man’s sin will deny these innocent children their destiny? Not for a second.

With this in mind, any kind of sacrifices\penances\indulgences to alleviate the ‘suffering’ of the souls in Limbo is wasted–they simply do not suffer, and they are not in communion with the Church.

Ah, Satan would have us believe that it is a waste of time to offer Masses for the stillborn and aborted infants. But the Church certainly does not teach that it is a waste of time to offer Masses for these infants.

 

[stanley123]

Matt16_18:

Do I believe that man’s sin will deny these innocent children their destiny? Not for a second…

How do you understand the declarations of both the Second Council of Lyons in 1274 and the Council of Florence held between 1438 and 1445,. They taught that: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with only original sin soon go down into hell, but there they receive different punishments” (Denziger 464, 693).

 

[Ghosty]

stanley123:

How do you understand the declarations of both the Second Council of Lyons in 1274 and the Council of Florence held between 1438 and 1445,. They taught that: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with only original sin soon go down into hell, but there they receive different punishments” (Denziger 464, 693).

I’m not Matt16_18, but I am familiar with how those declarations are understood among those that put for the view against Limbo. In brief, the declaration is absolutely true, but we don’t know who these people are. God is not limited by the Sacraments, and He can Baptise whomever He wishes, whenever He wishes, just as He did Mary at her Conception. It is up to Him whom He will Sanctify and whom He will not.

Peace and God bless!