"Vatican to Issue Stamp Featuring Martin Luther"

[Ginny89]

How would you know what is or is not being criticized, when you have admitted that you refuse to actually find out what the Church teaches on Luther or the Reformation? Your celebration of theological ignorance is stunning.

LOL! How would I know what it is I’m criticizing? Perhaps by having access to my own mind? Perhaps by reading the OP?

This is hillarious! I am not allowed to say that a claimed celebration of an unambiguously horrible event is bizzarre until I read long elaborate documents that don’t talk about the OP topic?

I know what our church teaches about non-catholic Christians, about the reformation and other schismatic events. I do own a catechism. The church doesn’t teach that celebrating schismatic events is kosher. In fact it might very well be scandalous.

 

[Ginny89]

I think we all need to take a step back and settle down here; no one is calling for a celebration of the Reformation, especially the Church. There’s a big difference between a “commemoration” and a “celebration”, as Mr. Keating so eloquently put it. How could any Christian possibly celebrate the fracturing of the Body of Christ? We can only hope and pray that this 500th anniversary will ultimately lead closer to a full reconciliation, much like we’ve seen with the three Personal Ordinariate which utilize the Anglican Use. That is ecumenism fully and truly realized. Fr. Dwight Longennecker raises the question about the possibility of similar “Lutheran Ordinariates” so that our Lutheran brothers and sisters may finally come home to Rome, and ecumenism here may be fully realized.

And I’ve raised this question before, but who on this thread has hate for Luther? Where is it? I think Luther being “praised” is a strong word. What should he be “praised” for? Furthermore, why should the Catholic Church be “honoring Luther in some more formal way”? What exactly is this “honor” that should be given him? What is the “formal way” in which this should be done? I ask in all seriousness, because I can’t think of a single good reason this man should be honored in our churches.

Instead, I’d rather honor and emulate such people who never forsook the Church, who never forsook their vows, and who never denounced the Rock upon which Christ’s holy Church was built upon. Instead of honoring Luther, I’ll honor the memories of such people as the Martyrs of Gorkum. Saints Nicholas Pieck and his companions were executed in 1572. These men were true witnesses to the Gospel, never abandoning our Lord and the teachings of His holy Church. All 19 of these saints were hanged, and then their bodies were mutilated immediately afterwards, some of them still breathing while this took place. As Butler’s noted, “these men gave their lives for the Catholic faith in general, and for the truth of its Eucharistic teaching and the primacy of the Roman pontiff in particular.”

Luther may have held on to his belief in the Eucharist, but he castigated the Roman pontiff in an extremely foul manner. St. Nicholas and his companions are honored every year in the Catholic Church on July 9th.

Another man I’d rather “honor” instead of Luther, also from the 16th century is a man who’s feast day we just celebrated yesterday, Blessed William Patenson, who was beatified more recently in 1929. This man witnessed beautifully to our Lord, by converting and reconciling six other prisoners to Holy Mother Church before they were executed. That’s right, some of those men had left the Church during the aftermath of the Reformation, but Blessed William was able to bring them back into full communion with the Church before they were executed. And because Bd. William had done this, he was cut down early during his hanging, and was drawn and quartered while still alive. Did Luther do anything to bring any souls back to the Catholic faith and the rock that Church is built on in the days before his death? I will instead be honoring Bd. William, and praying for his intercession tonight.

I do wonder if Bd. William has ever had his face on a stamp… but either way, I see no reason to give any honor to Luther when we already have a cloud of witnesses before us that we should duly honor and venerate. There are so many more holy men and women from the 16th century that I haven’t mentioned. And that’s not hate, that’s just the truth. If only a “minority” (how one quantifies that is beyond me) feel this way, then maybe the so-called “majority” would do well to remember and honor our own heroes before we seek to honor those that did not live a life worthy of imitating.

Thank you for this.

 

[Pulvis]

Of course. One of the worrying trends of the new secular religion is that if you disagree with me then i define you as hating…. and then because you hate i can shout you down and try to exclude your views while thinking i am moral in doing so.

and of course, absent a lobotomy, you are quite entitled and capable of doing so and nobody but the most arrogant authoritarian would try to stop you articulating your opinion.

Quite common tactic in both Politics and Religion nowadays.

 

[ringil]

I know what our church teaches about non-catholic Christians, about the reformation and other schismatic events. I do own a catechism. The church doesn’t teach that celebrating schismatic events is kosher. In fact it might very well be scandalous.

Are you saying that the Pope and Bishops are sowing scandal?

 

[TMC]

Oh please. You have falsely claimed that church teaching is being criticized. That makes everything you have to say on the topic meaningless.

Fair enough. I guess we will just have to disagree on this, although I still find it odd that you would simply refuse to read the Church’s own documents, while simultaneously declaring them wrong.

 

[Ginny89]

Fair enough. I guess we will just have to disagree on this, although I still find it odd that you would simply refuse to read the Church’s own documents, while simultaneously declaring them wrong.

Another falsehood.

 

[unafraid]

While I am delighted that the Vatican Post Office has issued a stamp to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, I am far happier:

• For all the progress made in a new outlook on ecumenism since Unitatis Redintegratio – more than fifty years ago.
• That our celebration of the 500th anniversary of the birth of Martin Luther included proclamations by Pope Saint John Paul II, including the proclamation of Martin Luther – in 1983, but the news seems still not to have reached the Catholic Answers Forum – that we as Catholics acclaim Martin Luther as “Witness of the Gospel.”
• That Pope Benedict made a pilgrimage commemorating Martin Luther when he was in Erfurt in 2011…where he delivered a most memorable text on Catholic-Lutheran relations, that seems also not have been assimilated by persons on this thread.
• That the joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation – the planning for which began in earnest during Pope Benedict’s visit to Germany in 2005 – is well underway, thanks to Pope Francis and to PCPCU. It sees Catholic bishops and priests around the world co-presiding with Lutheran Clerics in a commemorative liturgy for the 500th anniversary.
• That we are blessed to have the document *From Conflict to Communion *and by the document of the American Bishops, Declaration on the Way and that these will carry us all forward.

I am grateful for what the Popes have done. The Council Fathers have done. The Cardinals have done. The Bishops have done. And what my brother priests have done. That there are some fraction of lay people who either do not know or do not care is too bad for them…but thankfully, the hierarchy is moving forward – and that is what matters for the Church.

What a beautifully thought out synopsis of the process which led to this emphasis on commemorating the Protestant Reformation. Ecumenism exemplified by the action of three popes is very edifying to all who are looking for authoritative guidance on this subject.

However, we must understand that there has been blood spilled out, and some of it was the most holy, and sacred blood of Martyrs. Blood comes from wounds, and yes, wounds do heal with time, but the scars remain, and some retain an active sensitivity.

Therefore, while I accept the guidance of three popes on this matter, I also can understand the root of reactions, such as that of Patrick Madrid, as carrying valid contrary sentiments. We must all continue, with Holy Mother Church, to pray for Christian unity.

 

[TMC]

Another falsehood.

Well, I’m trying to be nicer. I guess I am failing. What was false in my statement?

 

[Ginny89]

Well, I’m trying to be nicer. I guess I am failing. What was false in my statement?

That I declared church documents wrong. All I have said is that I find tje notion of celebrating the reformation bizzarre. Because it was an awful thing. I find my statement to have been very benign compared to others especially in the first 5 or so pages but you and the padre decided to jump down my throat with the demand that I must read tonnes of ecumenical documents before I can have a right to such a simple opinion. It is this I have been pushing against. I have said nothing about Martin Luther or the church teachings in this thread.

 

[TMC]

That I declared church documents wrong. All I have said is that I find tje notion of celebrating the reformation bizzarre. Because it was an awful thing. I find my statement to have been very benign compared to others especially in the first 5 or so pages but you and the padre decided to jump down my throat with the demand that I must read tonnes of ecumenical documents before I can have a right to such a simple opinion. It is this I have been pushing against. I have said nothing about Martin Luther or the church teachings in this thread.

OK, maybe I have been misunderstanding you. If I have, I apologize.

 

[Ginny89]

OK, maybe I have been misunderstanding you. If I have, I apologize.

Well, thank you! I did not expect that.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

What a beautifully thought out synopsis of the process which led to this emphasis on commemorating the Protestant Reformation. Ecumenism exemplified by the action of three popes is very edifying to all who are looking for authoritative guidance on this subject.

However, we must understand that there has been blood spilled out, and some of it was the most holy, and sacred blood of Martyrs. Blood comes from wounds, and yes, wounds do heal with time, but the scars remain, and some retain an active sensitivity.

Therefore, while I accept the guidance of three popes on this matter, I also can understand the root of reactions, such as that of Patrick Madrid, as carrying valid contrary sentiments. We must all continue, with Holy Mother Church, to pray for Christian unity.

Thank you for your compliment. It is appreciated. After all these years of working on the issues and giving lectures in the field, a synopsis can come rather easily.

You are correct “that there has been blood spilled out” and that the spilling of blood inflicts wounds.

The evocation brings back two memories of a very different sort…

Blessed Pope Paul VI’s canonisation of the martyrs of Uganda. The canonised martyrs are, of course, Catholic…but we are also very aware – and that awareness has continued to grow – of the Anglicans who were also put to death in the same era by the same people. In that instance, the martyrdoms of Catholics and of Anglicans were perpetrated from outside Christianity and that has had its own profound impact on both faith communities in Uganda…strengthening the ties between them, above all since the Council.

I remember, now years ago, when I was present for a commemoration of the martyrs of conscience, where those put to death for issues of conscience instead originated with, and was occasioned by, others who were baptised…and that has left profound wounds on every side. And yet, again, the ways in which it is remembered today is being thoughtfully and carefully re-considered in light of where the journey of dialogue has taken us.

 

[pnewton]

Quite common tactic in both Politics and Religion nowadays.

What is so funny is that there was a new thread yesterday where this was done politically by Trump supporters. It is a rather popular tactic.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What is so funny is that there was a new thread yesterday where this was done politically by Trump supporters. It is a rather popular tactic.

Social awareness is becoming narrower and narrower day by day!

 

[Justin_Swanton]

That our celebration of the 500th anniversary of the birth of Martin Luther included proclamations by Pope Saint John Paul II, including the proclamation of Martin Luther – in 1983, but the news seems still not to have reached the Catholic Answers Forum – that we as Catholics acclaim Martin Luther as “Witness of the Gospel.”

It is this part - exclusion made of all the rest - that gives this thread its aura of surrealism. I have read one of Luther’s last works: Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil. This dainty tract - large parts of which I would not get away with reproducing here - represents his mature thinking. I suspect that the good Don Ruggero would have difficulties with Luther’s attitude towards the Catholic hierarchy and in particular the Pope, but the real point is whether ***anything ***in that work bears even the faintest hint of a ‘Witness of the Gospel’.

Some things just hit you in the face.

 

[Pulvis]

It is this part - exclusion made of all the rest - that gives this thread its aura of surrealism. I have read one of Luther’s last works: Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil. This dainty tract - large parts of which I would not get away with reproducing here - represents his mature thinking. I suspect that the good Don Ruggero would have difficulties with Luther’s attitude towards the Catholic hierarchy and in particular the Pope, but the real point is whether ***anything ***in that work bears even the faintest hint of a ‘Witness of the Gospel’.

Some things just hit you in the face.

It is tough to square that circle. When an individual’s own words convict him, how can one justify a rewrite of his positions? How can one ignore facts?

 

[EIF5A]

It is tough to square that circle. When an individual’s own words convict him, how can one justify a rewrite of his positions? How can one ignore facts?

As long as there’s a separation between what he did right and what he did wrong, there shouldn’t be confusion…perhaps…I think…

 

[Randolph]

As long as there’s a separation between what he did right and what he did wrong, there shouldn’t be confusion…perhaps…I think…

How would you go about the separation of his doing right and wrong when Luther himself neither recanted nor repented for his heresy and hatred views? Mind you of the tremendous and horrible damages (wars, deaths, heresy, hatred, proliferation of churches, etc…) done to Christendom after his death until this day and beyond.

Please don’t get me wrong. JPII, Benefict XVI, Francis and the bishops are absolutely correct in pursuing meaningful and honest dialogues in past disputes that focus on truth, facts, introspection, reconciliation, healing, and Christian peace and unity. I am grateful that they took the courage to pursue it. I believe the word “commemoration” is appropriately used in these contexts.

However, I do believe debates would be valid and must be had if the church goes beyond the level of “commemoration” to the levels of celebration, honoring, admiration, etc… If this stamp story turns out to be true and to be implemented, irrespective of the subsequent spins, there will be fire storms for sure.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

While I am delighted that the Vatican Post Office has issued a stamp to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, I am far happier:

• For all the progress made in a new outlook on ecumenism since Unitatis Redintegratio – more than fifty years ago.
• That our celebration of the 500th anniversary of the birth of Martin Luther included proclamations by Pope Saint John Paul II, including the proclamation of Martin Luther – in 1983, but the news seems still not to have reached the Catholic Answers Forum – that we as Catholics acclaim Martin Luther as “Witness of the Gospel.”
• That Pope Benedict made a pilgrimage commemorating Martin Luther when he was in Erfurt in 2011…where he delivered a most memorable text on Catholic-Lutheran relations, that seems also not have been assimilated by persons on this thread.
• That the joint commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation – the planning for which began in earnest during Pope Benedict’s visit to Germany in 2005 – is well underway, thanks to Pope Francis and to PCPCU. It sees Catholic bishops and priests around the world co-presiding with Lutheran Clerics in a commemorative liturgy for the 500th anniversary.
• That we are blessed to have the document *From Conflict to Communion *and by the document of the American Bishops, Declaration on the Way and that these will carry us all forward.

I am grateful for what the Popes have done. The Council Fathers have done. The Cardinals have done. The Bishops have done. And what my brother priests have done. That there are some fraction of lay people who either do not know or do not care is too bad for them…but thankfully, the hierarchy is moving forward – and that is what matters for the Church.

Do you think perhaps a cause for canonization for Martin Luther will be opened as part of the commemoration? Distributing his images does seem to be a form of public veneration. What would you say?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Do you think perhaps a cause for canonization for Martin Luther will be opened as part of the commemoration?

No.

Distributing his images does seem to be a form of public veneration. What would you say?

I have to say that this is one of the most absurd things I have read in this forum…and that is saying quite a lot, actually.

The Holy See has issued stamps featuring Copernicus, Galileo, Canova, Titian, Rubens, Verdi and Marconi…and those are just men I can think of off the top of my head.

We’ve just had stamps published commemorating the 70th anniversary of the conclusion of World War II and the Birth of the United Nations Organisation.

The reigning Pope is always a subject of the Vatican’s stamps – as, actually, are living heads of state in most countries with a monarch – and they, too, are not being proposed for public veneration.

How one could even remotely reach a conclusion that these “images” and subjects – on postage stamps – are a form of public veneration is, frankly, stupefying…and disturbing.