Vatican's commission completes investigation on Medjugorje, submits report [CC]

[irishpatrick]

No need to exit. It’s only discussion. No hurt feelings. With discussion, hopefully we all obtain a broader perspective and learn from the other person’s point of view, and learn to respect the other person’s point of view, as well. Maybe I never thought of your point of view, and maybe you never thought of my point of view. Now they’re both out in the open and we and others can evaluate them. The whole point is to see things as clearly as possible. I think we’re all better off for having participated in discussion. If it’s a matter of I’m right and you’re wrong, then we have a problem, but I don’t think we have this here. I’m on my way to a retreat in a few minutes, so I don’t know if I’ll be able to get here to post this weekend. Thanks for joining us, irishpatrick.

Please understand, I have a great love for Our Lady, and the last thing I’d want is to have anyone think otherwise…she is, after all, the Mother of our Lord. Therefore, when it comes to these topics, for me it is always best to lean toward the side of caution.

Have a good and Holy retreat.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Where is that rule written in stone??? The ones in Bayside, NY were condemed even while it was “going on”. It may still be “going on” for all I know. God Bless, Memaw

Yes they were condemned, because the CHurch saw content at Bayside which conflicted with RC teaching and Scripture. While the Church is cautious in approving apparitions, it does not ignore them ! It watches and if there is serious doctrinal error, it acts swiftly.
Interesting to consider that M… has been going on for 32+ years with no Vatican condemnation

Regarding the Bishop of Mostar’s opinion on the matter. Yes, they do not like it. However a little research will show that the local Bishop came out in VERY STRONG SUPPORT of the apparitions in the early weeks of the event. Then something happened which apparently caused him to reverse his stance. One has to consider the difficult political climate of the times, the pressures the communists were putting on the Church at the time, and the history of the local diocese and the Franciscans in that country. It is a very old and tangled web of events.

 

[zab]

Yes they were condemned, because the CHurch saw content at Bayside which conflicted with RC teaching and Scripture. While the Church is cautious in approving apparitions, it does not ignore them ! It watches and if there is serious doctrinal error, it acts swiftly.
Interesting to consider that M… has been going on for 32+ years with no Vatican condemnation

Regarding the Bishop of Mostar’s opinion on the matter. Yes, they do not like it. However a little research will show that the local Bishop came out in VERY STRONG SUPPORT of the apparitions in the early weeks of the event. Then something happened which apparently caused him to reverse his stance. One has to consider the difficult political climate of the times, the pressures the communists were putting on the Church at the time, and the history of the local diocese and the Franciscans in that country. It is a very old and tangled web of events.

What happened was this:
“Bishop Žanić established the first Commission on 11 January 1982, which investigated the events until 1984.[16] It was comprised of four priests, 3 diocesans and 1 religious franciscan.[17]
The bishop’s new discoveries. The Commission hadn’t even gathered yet when on 14 January 1982 something happened that marked the bishop’s position once and for all. That day, three of the “seers” came to Mostar with the “Madonna’s” message that the bishop, regarding the famous Herzegovinian Affair acted too hastily, because he sought the removal of two Franciscan associate pastors who were causing problems in Mostar. The bishop, who during his lifetime venerated the Madonna with numerous devotions and pilgrimages, upon hearing that the phenomenon in Medjugorje was accusing him of irreligious disorder in reference to the parishes; that it didn’t recognize in him a faithful son of the Church and the Madonna, the Mother of the Church, to whom a year earlier in September 1980, the Cathedral church of Mostar was consecrated; that the phenomenon was defending disobedient religious friars who were obstructing the normal functioning of the Cathedral, began to look with suspicion upon the “messages” and the “apparitions” in Medjugorje. Despite all this, the Commission began its work.” cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101

 

[Memaw]

Yes they were condemned, because the CHurch saw content at Bayside which conflicted with RC teaching and Scripture. While the Church is cautious in approving apparitions, it does not ignore them ! It watches and if there is serious doctrinal error, it acts swiftly.
Interesting to consider that M… has been going on for 32+ years with no Vatican condemnation

Regarding the Bishop of Mostar’s opinion on the matter. Yes, they do not like it. However a little research will show that the local Bishop came out in VERY STRONG SUPPORT of the apparitions in the early weeks of the event. Then something happened which apparently caused him to reverse his stance. One has to consider the difficult political climate of the times, the pressures the communists were putting on the Church at the time, and the history of the local diocese and the Franciscans in that country. It is a very old and tangled web of events.

How many times have the different commissions reported, ‘nothing supernatural there’. I think several times at least. If it’s not supernatural, then what is it??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[JamesCaruso]

How many times have the different commissions reported, ‘nothing supernatural there’. I think several times at least. If it’s not supernatural, then what is it??? God Bless, Memaw

That begs the question, “Why then did the Vatican commission this latest investigation?”

The fact that they are doing this investigation calls all the other investigations into question.

Are you saying the Vatican caves to popular opinion? I don’t think you are. Since the Vatican saw fit to do yet another investigation, why not give the Vatican the benefit of the doubt that the investigation was warranted and sit back and await its findings. If you’re saying that the Vatican is bumbling along, which I do not think you are saying, then who could believe their findings no matter how they come out? I say, let the Vatican do its job, and then let’s us abide by its decisions. . But I do understand your exasperation with so many commissions. We just have to be patient.

 

[Demetra2]

I am so grateful that the church is doing a thorough although very slow investigation. It will be interesting to see what the final opinion is and how people will react to it. Hopefully Catholics will be obedient to the Pope’s final say on the matter. Keep in mind that no one is obligated to have a devotion to any apparition. I have always been fascinated with Fatima.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I am so grateful that the church is doing a thorough although very slow investigation. It will be interesting to see what the final opinion is and how people will react to it. Hopefully Catholics will be obedient to the Pope’s final say on the matter. Keep in mind that no one is obligated to have a devotion to any apparition. I have always been fascinated with Fatima.

The fact that JPII believed in Fatima is enough for me. Is was an extraordinary message, wasn’t it? …about Russia and world peace, I mean.

 

[adrift]

That begs the question, “Why then did the Vatican commission this latest investigation?”

The fact that they are doing this investigation calls all the other investigations into question.

Are you saying the Vatican caves to popular opinion? I don’t think you are. Since the Vatican saw fit to do yet another investigation, why not give the Vatican the benefit of the doubt that the investigation was warranted and sit back and await its findings. If you’re saying that the Vatican is bumbling along, which I do not think you are saying, then who could believe their findings no matter how they come out? I say, let the Vatican do its job, and then let’s us abide by its decisions. . But I do understand your exasperation with so many commissions. We just have to be patient.

What I understand that because of the controversy, the bishop asked the Pope to intervene and call the special commission. This explains it better. From reading the article we might have a split decision that is the original apparitions were supernatural but the on going ones are not. I have seen it in another apparition that the apparition was approved but that the “seer” was not.

 

[Memaw]

That begs the question, “Why then did the Vatican commission this latest investigation?”

The fact that they are doing this investigation calls all the other investigations into question.

Are you saying the Vatican caves to popular opinion? I don’t think you are. Since the Vatican saw fit to do yet another investigation, why not give the Vatican the benefit of the doubt that the investigation was warranted and sit back and await its findings. If you’re saying that the Vatican is bumbling along, which I do not think you are saying, then who could believe their findings no matter how they come out? I say, let the Vatican do its job, and then let’s us abide by its decisions. . But I do understand your exasperation with so many commissions. We just have to be patient.

I am NOT saying anything of the sort, nor am I doubting the Vatican’s work. Seems to me your doing all the “saying”. The Church is always very slow and thorough about such things. I simply asked a question. I trust the Church and will abide by the decision of the Pope. God Bless. Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Yes they were condemned, because the CHurch saw content at Bayside which conflicted with RC teaching and Scripture. While the Church is cautious in approving apparitions, it does not ignore them ! It watches and if there is serious doctrinal error, it acts swiftly.
Interesting to consider that M… has been going on for 32+ years with no Vatican condemnation

Regarding the Bishop of Mostar’s opinion on the matter. Yes, they do not like it. However a little research will show that the local Bishop came out in VERY STRONG SUPPORT of the apparitions in the early weeks of the event. Then something happened which apparently caused him to reverse his stance. One has to consider the difficult political climate of the times, the pressures the communists were putting on the Church at the time, and the history of the local diocese and the Franciscans in that country. It is a very old and tangled web of events.

A little more research will show why the Bishop drew back with caution. Had nothing to do with the climate of the times or pressures from the communists. God Bless. Memaw.

 

[Memaw]

The fact that JPII believed in Fatima is enough for me. Is was an extraordinary message, wasn’t it? …about Russia and world peace, I mean.

Every Pope since Fatima occured has stressed the importance of it. More than any other approved apparition. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JamesCaruso]

I am NOT saying anything of the sort, nor am I doubting the Vatican’s work. Seems to me your doing all the “saying”.

I did not say or insinuate that you were. Please reread my post. Peace.

 

[zab]

That begs the question, “Why then did the Vatican commission this latest investigation?”

The fact that they are doing this investigation calls all the other investigations into question.

If you read the history of the commissions, you will read that, “The Vatican spokesman reviewed the history of investigations into the possible Marian apparitions of Medjugorje, noting that they began on a diocesan level. When it was seen that the “phenomenon was broader than the diocese,” it was passed on to the episcopal conference of the former Yugoslavia, which, he noted, no longer exists.” catholicnewsagency.com/news/holy_see_confirms_formation_of_medjugorje_commission/

And to make this point, There are several places in the United States, where so-called “apparitions” have occurred and in each of these situations, it happened after one of the founders had made a visit to Medjugorje. Because of the international effect that the Medjugorje phenomenon has, Bishop Peric knew that another commission was needed. This does not call the other commissions into question.

 

[Memaw]

I did not say or insinuate that you were. Please reread my post. Peace.

I did, You have an unusual way of “saying” things that someone else didn’t say. . God Bless. Memaw

 

[Memaw]

If you read the history of the commissions, you will read that, “The Vatican spokesman reviewed the history of investigations into the possible Marian apparitions of Medjugorje, noting that they began on a diocesan level. When it was seen that the “phenomenon was broader than the diocese,” it was passed on to the episcopal conference of the former Yugoslavia, which, he noted, no longer exists.” catholicnewsagency.com/news/holy_see_confirms_formation_of_medjugorje_commission/

And to make this point, There are several places in the United States, where so-called “apparitions” have occurred and in each of these situations, it happened after one of the founders had made a visit to Medjugorje. Because of the international effect that the Medjugorje phenomenon has, Bishop Peric knew that another commission was needed. This does not call the other commissions into question.

Thanks, God Bless, Memaw

 

[JamesCaruso]

I did, You have an unusual way of “saying” things that someone else didn’t say. . God Bless. Memaw

Well, thanks for pointing that out. I’ll try to be more careful in the future.

 

[Bob4BVM]

A little more research will show why the Bishop drew back with caution. Had nothing to do with the climate of the times or pressures from the communists. God Bless. Memaw.

There are many factors that contributed to his change of mind, it is/was a very complex historical situation over there.
To say that it Had nothing to do with the climate of the times is a drastic over-simplification.

One really needs to spend some time in the area talking to the people of that culture to even begin to understand the historical political-cultural-religious complexities present.

If i have learned anything it’s this: you cannot form an accurate mental picture of what has/is/may be occurring there by listening to “experts” whio have never set foot in the place. And that is just the part of getting the facts straight.

The spiritual experience is a whole other matter, that is virtually impossible to understand short of direct personal experience.

I know from the tone of your posts you might not agree with that statement, and that’s ok. I have long since stopped trying to convince anyone of the reality of my conversion, especially on the internet.
Now, if we had an hour over a cup of coffee i believe you’d come away with a different opinion.!

 

[Memaw]

There are many factors that contributed to his change of mind, it is/was a very complex historical situation over there.
To say that it Had nothing to do with the climate of the times is a drastic over-simplification.

One really needs to spend some time in the area talking to the people of that culture to even begin to understand the historical political-cultural-religious complexities present.

If i have learned anything it’s this: you cannot form an accurate mental picture of what has/is/may be occurring there by listening to “experts” whio have never set foot in the place. And that is just the part of getting the facts straight.

The spiritual experience is a whole other matter, that is virtually impossible to understand short of direct personal experience.

I know from the tone of your posts you might not agree with that statement, and that’s ok. I have long since stopped trying to convince anyone of the reality of my conversion, especially on the internet.
Now, if we had an hour over a cup of coffee i believe you’d come away with a different opinion.!

I am sure the Bishops have understood than much more than you or I ever will. In fact better than anyone visiting the place no matter how many times they have been there. So that is why we trust in the judgment of the Holy Church and the Popes decisions even tho he has never been there. My posts should tell you that I am waiting for the Church to tell me if it is “Worthy of Belief.” I know many, many people that have been there, some several times, and many conflicting stories. One even offered to pay my way, if I would go back with her, but of course I didn’t. So I don’t think one cup of coffee and one hour would do much right now, but thanks for the offer. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JamesCaruso]

There are many factors that contributed to his change of mind, it is/was a very complex historical situation over there.
To say that it Had nothing to do with the climate of the times is a drastic over-simplification.

One really needs to spend some time in the area talking to the people of that culture to even begin to understand the historical political-cultural-religious complexities present.

If i have learned anything it’s this: you cannot form an accurate mental picture of what has/is/may be occurring there by listening to “experts” whio have never set foot in the place. And that is just the part of getting the facts straight.

The spiritual experience is a whole other matter, that is virtually impossible to understand short of direct personal experience.

I know from the tone of your posts you might not agree with that statement, and that’s ok. I have long since stopped trying to convince anyone of the reality of my conversion, especially on the internet.
Now, if we had an hour over a cup of coffee i believe you’d come away with a different opinion.!

Good points.

Are you aware of the new policy of the Holy See regarding Medjugorje? It doesn’t mean we must change our opinions, but it does put a damper on Medjugorje.

FYI, the 2013 letter of the Apostolic Nuncio to the United States (Archbishop Vigano) to the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Monsignor Jenkins) tells me that the the Church has raised the bar for allowing pilgrimages to Medjugorje. In his letter he writes, “…[C]lerics and the faithful are not permitted to participate in meetings, conferences or public celebrations during which the credibility of such “apparitions” would be taken for granted.” He asked this policy to be conveyed to the American Bishops. This is certainly a more strict policy than before when the only prohibition was against officials of the Church lending any official sanction to Medjugorje.

Thinking back to my visits to Medjugorje, I would say that pilgrims in general go there because they believe the Virgin is appearing there, and when they get there, they “participate in meetings… [and]… public celebrations during which the credibility of …[the] “apparitions”… [is] taken for granted.” Therefore, I will not be going back until this is either changed or further clarified, not that I had any trip currently planned.

EWTN issued a commentary on Medjugorje and concluded the following regarding the 2013 letters (there were two in all):

*These 2013 letters clearly represent a change of pastoral attitude on the part of the Holy See, one which began before the end of the pontificate of Pope Benedict and which has now been affirmed by Pope Francis. An attitude of seeming tolerance has been replaced with a firm call for acceptance of the ecclesiastical judgments made to date, or at least publicly acting in accordance with them. Whether this is simply to dispose all parties (pro and con) to accept the final judgment of the Church when the Pope issues it, whatever that judgment may be, or, in view of a decision of the same character as the previous ones, remains to be seen.
*

 

[Lormar]

I still want to know if it is approved if the Vatican will officially change Our Lady’s birthday which they apparently had wrong for two thousand years.

This is one of the many things I have never understood about the alleged apparition.