"Vatican's steps falter again on sex abuse..."

[coolduude]

This is an editorial-type article from the Chicago Sun-Times:

suntimes.com/news/commentary/2506190,CST-EDT-edit18a.article

A short and easy read bashing the Church

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

What are some thoughts on this article/events that are talked about in this article?

 

[Apollos]

What are some thoughts on this article/events that are talked about in this article?

Isn’t it amazing how a wretched, backward, incompetent, closed-minded, secretive, hypocritical, and oppressive institution that can’t seem to do *anything *right has lasted so long?

It’s almost a miracle

p.s. is the sun-times for sale yet?

 

[OriginalJS]

Hmmm. I do think child abuse is a serious crime. Attempted ordination of women seems more like mere foolishness or posturing. Should those who attempt an ordination of women be fined or imprisoned? I think not. I’m not a fan of the Sun-Times, but the writer has a point.

 

[curlycool89]

Hmmm. I do think child abuse is a serious crime. Attempted ordination of women seems more like mere foolishness or posturing. Should those who attempt an ordination of women be fined or imprisoned? I think not. I’m not a fan of the Sun-Times, but the writer has a point.

The changes deal with canonical crimes, not civil crimes. They are essentially separate tracts. A person who commits a crime could be punished under both systems (in the case child abuse they would be charge under federal/state law and get jail time if proven guilty, but they would also face canonical penalties like being reduced from the clerical state) or just one (in the case of women “ordinations”, there are no federal/state laws, but they would still be charged under canonical laws).

It doesn’t deal with civil law because the Church is not in charge of civil law. Catholics are still to respect and obey just laws.

 

[estesbob]

Hmmm. I do think child abuse is a serious crime. Attempted ordination of women seems more like mere foolishness or posturing. Should those who attempt an ordination of women be fined or imprisoned? I think not. I’m not a fan of the Sun-Times, but the writer has a point.

Th Church is not calling for anyone to fined or put in prison. They have no authroity to do so. They are saying that both sexual abuse and ordination of women is a seious abuses of Canon Law They are not saying they are equivalnet-just that both are both classified as serious abuses. For instance Shoplifting over $250 is a felony in Texas. so is Murder. The fact that both are felonies does not mean the ofenses are equal in the eyes of the law.

 

[Roy5]

One had to question the common sense of some inside the Vatican. Putting sexual crimes in the same document that condemns those who try to ordained women priests is certain to lead to annoyance.

Sexual predators who prey on minors are criminals under the law and should be prosecuted by the civil authorities. We have passed the time when the hierarchy was a law unto itself. 

 Those who seek to ordain women priests may or may not be dead wrong, but they are not criminals under the law. That becomes an internal matter for the church. 

  Frankly, I find that more and more Catholics are favorably inclined toward a greater role for women in the church. There is an argument that there was a woman deacon or two in the early church. See, for example, Romans 16:1 = re Phoebe. Pliny the Younger wrote to the emperor in 112 AD that he had tortured two Christian women who were called deaconesses. The office of deaconess continued in the Eastern Church until the 12th century. 

 A number of Protestant groups have or have had deaconesses. 

 It's something that should be examined. This notion that modern Christians have to be locked into old traditions is dangerous. You've perhaps heard the Seven Last Words of the Church: "We never did it that way before!"

 

[estesbob]

One had to question the common sense of some inside the Vatican. Putting sexual crimes in the same document that condemns those who try to ordained women priests is certain to lead to annoyance.

Sexual predators who prey on minors are criminals under the law and should be prosecuted by the civil authorities. We have passed the time when the hierarchy was a law unto itself.

Those who seek to ordain women priests may or may not be dead wrong, but they are not criminals under the law. That becomes an internal matter for the church.

Frankly, I find that more and more Catholics are favorably inclined toward a greater role for women in the church. There is an argument that there was a woman deacon or two in the early church. See, for example, Romans 16:1 = re Phoebe. Pliny the Younger wrote to the emperor in 112 AD that he had tortured two Christian women who were called deaconesses. The office of deaconess continued in the Eastern Church until the 12th century.

A number of Protestant groups have or have had deaconesses.

It’s something that should be examined. This notion that modern Christians have to be locked into old traditions is dangerous. You’ve perhaps heard the Seven Last Words of the Church: “We never did it that way before!”

You are aware that there a multitude of offenses other than these two in the document?

There is no history in the Church of Deconess’s or Prietesses-reagrdless of what you may google up.

 

[Apollos]

One had to question the common sense of some inside the Vatican. Putting sexual crimes in the same document that condemns those who try to ordained women priests is certain to lead to annoyance.

Sexual predators who prey on minors are criminals under the law and should be prosecuted by the civil authorities. We have passed the time when the hierarchy was a law unto itself. 

 Those who seek to ordain women priests may or may not be dead wrong, but they are not criminals under the law. That becomes an internal matter for the church. 

  Frankly, I find that more and more Catholics are favorably inclined toward a greater role for women in the church. There is an argument that there was a woman deacon or two in the early church. See, for example, Romans 16:1 = re Phoebe. Pliny the Younger wrote to the emperor in 112 AD that he had tortured two Christian women who were called deaconesses. The office of deaconess continued in the Eastern Church until the 12th century. 

 A number of Protestant groups have or have had deaconesses. 

 It's something that should be examined. This notion that modern Christians have to be locked into old traditions is dangerous. You've perhaps heard the Seven Last Words of the Church: "We never did it that way before!"

Sounds like you’ve fallen for the media’s irresponsibly dishonest spin on this document. I can tell you haven’t actually read it, because the document itself as well as the introductory remarks delivered at the press conference explain why all these infractions are dealt with together. And both documents are already available on the internet, so you have no excuse.

I don’t hear you complaining that faking the Eucharist is also mentioned alongside child pornography. Because you obviously haven’t read it.

Did you notice the part about extending the statute of limitations in sexual abuse cases? No, because you haven’t read it.

It is patently false that the mention of both crimes in the same document implies that the Church considers them to be equivalent. Read the document first.

 

[curlycool89]

Frankly, I find that more and more Catholics are favorably inclined toward a greater role for women in the church. There is an argument that there was a woman deacon or two in the early church. See, for example, Romans 16:1 = re Phoebe. Pliny the Younger wrote to the emperor in 112 AD that he had tortured two Christian women who were called deaconesses. The office of deaconess continued in the Eastern Church until the 12th century.

First, there is some discussion about the early Church and “deaconesses”. Whether it was merely a title or sacramental is unknown, and because it’s unknown (and likely the former and not the latter) the Church has said it will not do it (the Church is not going to do something when She is not sure). What is known is that there has never been such a thing as women priests (priests are a distinctly different level of Holy Orders just like a bishop is a different level from priests. A quick examples: a deacon cannon consecrate the Eucharist or absolve sins, and a priest cannon ordain other priests or bishops). The question of women priests (and therefore bishops) is closed per John Paul II (no future Pope can ever contradict a past Pope of teachings of faith and morals)

Second, there is a large school of thought that “deaconess” was simply a title given to the wife of a deacon (which seems to agree with wives of early priests and bishops getting titles too).

 

[JReducation]

The problem that the American and European press are having with the Vatican is the difference in worldview between the press and the Vatican. The press is speaking from its position in a Western nation, whichever nation that may be. The Vatican is looking at this from a global perspective. The Catholic Church exists all over the world. Unfortunately, civil laws are not the same around the globe.

It is very difficult for the Vatican to make one rule that fits every country in the world. In some countries, sexual activity between adults and minors is governed by civil laws very different from those of Western countries. There are countries where heterosexual intercourse between adults and minors is legal and homosexual intercourse between any age group is punishable by death. There are some countries where homosexual relations between adults and minors are considered rites of passage. There are other countries where the law is biased toward Christians and they do not get their day in court. Finally, there are countries where every accused is guilty until proven innocent. It’s very hard to prove your innocence on a crime such as this, unless you have a witness that can testify that at the time of the alleged crime you were miles away from the victim.

When you’re as big as the Catholic Church, you have to deal with different legal systems separately. One size does not fit all. The Vatican has a policy for the United States and countries with the same legal system as our own. You report the allegation to the civil authorities and to the proper ecclesial authorities. The Sacred Congregation for the Faith has a very difficult job trying to make sure that the accused and the victims are justly treated and that their dignity is protected. To pretend that one solution will work in every legal system around the world is unrealistic. It won’t work.

As to putting sexual abuse and the ordination of women into one document, I can’t comment on, because I have not read the document. I don’t know if this was a list of violations of Church law also known as ecclesial crimes or what the document actually said. But they are not the same kind of crime. Sexual abuse is a crime against justice and the dignity of another person. The ordination of women is a crime against the Sacrament of Holy Orders, therefore a crime against the faith. The article does not quote what the document said and I have not seen it. If anyone has a link to it, it would be interesting to read it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF