vegetaianism and conversion?

[henrikhank]

This thread is really off-topic! Threads about food will always have people embracing the idea of going off-topic.

I raised calves. I named them and fed them. Every fall, one got butchered.

It is a fact of life.

Yes, becasue you’re killing them. It wouldn’t be a fact of life if there were no meat eaters.

Well, but vegetarians still have to give up something else as penance on Fridays. Will they give up vegetables?

they give up meat and fish everyday and then on Fridays they can live on bread and green tea
It would be really stupid to eat meat just so you can give it up on Fridays.

 

[grandfather]

That is an assessment, not a judgement, but has nothing really to do with your perception of God as your judge. You are free to live under that heel all you like, but it doesn’t fit in regards to what I was talking about. Personally I just see that view of God as a wedge, but that wedge was in the minds of people before this man Sufjon came along and will remain long after he is gone. It is not one of my problems.

 

[4elise]

You seem to believe we have the power to fix ourselves by effecting our own evolutionary development mentally and physically. If we did have this power it would have nothing to do with evolution as it is defined.

Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. He breathed on His apostles and they received power. We have a paradox. We are powerless, but in this weakness we have power. He said that His Church would overcome the gates of hell, meaning destroy evil, the brutality you see and do not like.

This will not take place over eons through the evolutionary process, or by a generation making choices to shape its evolutionary destiny. It will take place in a dramatic and final confrontaion between darkness and light and each of us will all be on one side or the other.

If my genes are passed on as a result of some inherited immunity to disease, or because I am bigger or stronger or smarter, and your genes are different, or vice versa, so that one type is weeded out, that says we are who we are by accident, not choice. If we have the power to change it is by choice not accident.

I really enjoy your thoughtful responses.

Many threads go in many directions - and from the OP the question of what the Church teaches about eating meat has influenced my choice to live on a plant based diet - BECAUSE - my only access to meat, dairy and eggs (because I live in a large urban area in the United States) would be meat, dairy and eggs that come from factory farms, (this includes food at fast food places, frozen prepared foods, most resturants)

However, part of my work I visit locations in Africa and Latin America - when I am served chicken soup with tortillas or dried fish, or roasted goat - I accept in gratitude for the generosity with which this food is shared. I know the Church teaches that animals MAY be used - therefore in good conscious when I am abroad I can eat that food in good conscious -

I come home and enjoy my tofu, tempeh, nuts, beans, —

Respect for the integrity of creation

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196

2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

I do not NEED animals to suffer or die for my meals so I have discerned that it is contrary to MY human dignity to eat them when it is my choice.

It was the more I learned about factory farming in the US - and I could not unlearn it - therefore my conscious on this - and many other points about care for God’s wonderful gift of Creation - issues of sustainability - all this - in light of, and I believe informed by my Catholic faith.

All this being said - I was not always a vegetarian - I was not always a vegan - and I do not believe it is an evolutionary choice but a choice I made because I learned, I was open to the possibility that my choice of diet mattered to other people and to people yet to be here…

Blessings

 

[Miriam1947]

An all plant diet unless it is locally grown depletes the soil and causes the destruction of the natural habitats of animals. If you live in an urban area are you eating vegetables grown locally and organic on small local plots or are they shipped from miles away in trucks? Because you are polluting the air as well.

 

[Sufjon]

We do not assign purposes to anything, although we may imagine we do.

If you use a hammer to break up a piece of concrete, then you have assigned a purpose to the hammer for at least the time you are using it in such a way. It may have the purpose of pounding nails, but it’s purpose is manifest in the manner in which it is being used at the moment, and since the only moment that exists is the one you’re in, that’s it’s purpose.

Assessed by whom? Why not God who made us? Who says being peaceful and caring is better than being brutal? You imagined it would be an alien culture.

Okay, assessed by God then. My sense is that His preference for me is peaceful and caring rather than brutal and violent.

Are you saying that you think violence is wrong or evil?

In human behavior it is problematic, yes. For a volcano or a lion, no. In human behavior it is a reflection of your inward state, and peace is preferable.

It will be.

I know that is what you believe. It is not what I believe. I love for the sake of love, not in the hope of reward or fear of punishment. As long as people throw that idea around, or even remotely have it in their psyche, they will never be able to know if you ever had the capacity for any real sort of love. That whole line of thinking turns love into a commodity.

If we are “assessed” (not judged?) we are assessed according to some standard. You imagined it to come from an alien culture and that the standard would be whether we would be sufficiently evolved to be intelligent enough to measure protein production of an acre. If we pass the assessment does this mean the aliens will approve of us for being well advanced in the evolutionary process? If we are not evolutionarily advanced enough to comprehend this would that mean we are deficient or less noble in some way? Would that mean our predecessors who did not know the difference between protein and lipids or minerals, not that long ago, were not as evolutionarily advanced and the fact that we are different from them, because we are now able to now comprehend this, and that is the result of evolution making us superior to our predecessors as a result of evolutionary progress, the place we happened to be born in?

Everything that ever existed was a preparation for this moment. This moment in turn is the basis on which the next is built.

The reference to promiscuity was given as an example of objective moral failure. Intemperance, murder, stealing would have made the same point. Our predecessors murdered one another as we do. Nothing has changed morally and knowing the protein production of an acre or the human genome changes nothing.

It changes nothing so long as we fail t learn and put what we learn into action.

But you are saying that we can effect this, that we have control over it in some way. You do not like brutality and believe we can become less brutal, presumably by choice, or eating tofu. This is not evolution, the scientific theory, as it is defined. It has nothing to do with it.

Your mental development is part of your evolution. You can indeed chose to benefit from it, and our ability to reason that we can do that is in fact the product of an evolutionary position in space and time.

Rather you are touching on the religious or theological idea of free will. We can make choices that will shape the immediate and long term future, our own and those who will follow us. We certainly do that, but it has nothing to do with what is called evolution.

The choices you make are influenced by mental capacity. Our mental capacity is influenced by our evolutionary level. It has a lot to do with it. And there is a large amount of variation in species within the same general evolutionary level. You find humans who act more evolved than others.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[4elise]

An all plant diet unless it is locally grown depletes the soil and causes the destruction of the natural habitats of animals. If you live in an urban area are you eating vegetables grown locally and organic on small local plots or are they shipped from miles away in trucks? Because you are polluting the air as well.

You are right of course every choice has ramifications… I do grow some of our veggies in a small garden, buy organic as much as possible… And living in California we have the luxury of much locally grown fruits and. Veggies…but if pollution is the concern I would have to suggest this diet is still the best choice

Blessings

 

[RebeccaJ]

You who were a non-Catholic in the past and followed another religion (and therefore ate vegetarian food) did you have any problem with the Catholic view on meat eating when you converted?

From today’s reading:

Brothers and sisters,
Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do,
do everything for the glory of God.

1 Cor 10:31

It is in the context of Paul answering a question regarding eating meat that had been sacrificed in Roman pagan ritual.

Veganism has no prohibitin or teaching. Follow Christ in all you do. If your conscience is to not eat or use animal products, do do for the glory of God.

 

[CEM5]

You who were a non-Catholic in the past and followed another religion (and therefore ate vegetarian food) did you have any problem with the Catholic view on meat eating when you converted?

Here is what Scriptures says:

Romans 14:2 RSVA
One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here is what Scriptures says:

Romans 14:2 RSVA
One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables.

1 Welcome anyone who is weak in faith,a but not for disputes over opinions.
2 One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
3 The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgment on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him.

 

[grandfather]

I really enjoy your thoughtful responses.

Many threads go in many directions - and from the OP the question of what the Church teaches about eating meat has influenced my choice to live on a plant based diet - BECAUSE - my only access to meat, dairy and eggs (because I live in a large urban area in the United States) would be meat, dairy and eggs that come from factory farms, (this includes food at fast food places, frozen prepared foods, most resturants)

 

[grandfather]

If you use a hammer to break up a piece of concrete, then you have assigned a purpose to the hammer for at least the time you are using it in such a way. It may have the purpose of pounding nails, but it’s purpose is manifest in the manner in which it is being used at the moment, and since the only moment that exists is the one you’re in, that’s it’s purpose.

 

[Neildown]

It is tradition for Catholics to not eat meat on Fridays (except for fish). The CCC #41, and other places, tells us to respect all of creation. Therefore, it is entirely appropriate for a Catholic to take the discipline another step, into vegetarianism.

No problem.

And, as you see, Catholics are very diverse.

I heard from someone that muskrat is allowed too.

 

[Sufjon]

Not so. Everything that is made by design is made for a purpose, the purpose of the deisgner maker. When we use things for a purpose they are not designed for they break, including us.

We are able to improvise, and a good deal of the inventions that we have come from people using an old one in what was thought to be the wrong way.

In general that is true. You may be called to defend the helpless in a violent way. We prefer peace, but can not always have it.

Agreed.

The purpose for which we are made is to love and be loved. For love to be love it must be given freely. However if we fail in achieving our purpose there are dire consequences.

Agreed, except your view of the consequences differ from mine, but that’s another thread.

Our ability to think or reason is no different from the ancient Greeks, or Chinese, or anyone else’s. We have not changed a bit.

The information available to us with which to apply the thinking process is dramatically different.

Our ability to do things like raise vegetables, make computers, fly airplanes has nothing to do with evolution. It has to do with passing on knowledge of the material reality acquired by our predecessors.

We do not just evolve physically. We evolve in terms of what we know and how we act, and we evolve spiritually. The problem is that I forgot that you probably only view evolution from a Darwinian perspective, I look at it from a Hindu perspective, which is considerably older and encompasses more. For us, evolution is an idea that has been around for thousands of years before Christ. Science is catching up to us in a number of ways though, especially the field of physics.

There is no such thing. You somehow assume that evolution is producing something better than what existed, that we are advancing under the power of this force that is improving us, making us smarter, or at a higher state than the past. There is not a shred of evidence that this is true. Order does not come from disorder. Things do not become more organized by accident. The material reality says the opposite. Entropy says the opposite.

Entropy is true for a particular body, system or object over time. But the problem you mentioned only exists when your thought is limited to linear perspective. The car my father owned in 1968 became more disorderly as a working system over time, however, cars today are more complex, refined and are much more evolved. Where you see the difference to be positive or negative is a value observation. So within the overall context of the universe perhaps becoming less organized over time, new systems that appear within that context can and do evolve. As for whether or not we are smarter than our ancestors, we are certainly smarter than earlier hominid. We are talking about vast amounts of time. .

You may find humans who act more morally than others and it has nothing to do with evolution.

Again evolution is not just physical. Remember, I do not subscribe to western religious or philosophical thought. I see existence as cyclical, not linear. In short, I have always been and always will be. The form that I currently take is just the blink of an eye, and not even a chapter in my story. I am not saved, nor was I ever lost. Nothing is ever lost to God. That would be rather clumsy of Him. I understand that you see it otherwise.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Catholic90]

That sounds like an awesome weekend

It was! I am always glad to see him. He is a great young man.

He loves to cook, too! I don’t, so it works out well for both of us!

Yes, becasue you’re killing them. It wouldn’t be a fact of life if there were no meat eaters.

they give up meat and fish everyday and then on Fridays they can live on bread and green tea
It would be really stupid to eat meat just so you can give it up on Fridays.

Yeah…kind of have to kill them to eat them! I don’t think they’d really cooperate if they were still alive! They sure were delicious!

 

[Sufjon]

Contemplative Discalced Carmelites in Tasmania Australia

Hi Christine: I looked them up and it sounds like a great path. Are you starting sometime soon?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

This thread is really off-topic! Threads about food will always have people embracing the idea of going off-topic.

Yes, becasue you’re killing them. It wouldn’t be a fact of life if there were no meat eaters.

Well said, and with very few words, too!

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Miriam1947]

The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability by Lierre Keith

Part memoir, nutritional primer, and political manifesto, this controversial examination exposes the destructive history of agriculture—causing the devastation of*prairies and forests, driving countless species extinct, altering the climate, and destroying the topsoil—and asserts that, in order to save the planet, food must come from within living communities. In order for this to happen, the argument champions eating locally and sustainably and encourages those with the resources to grow their own food.

Further examining the question of what to eat from the perspective of both human and environmental health, the account goes beyond health choices and discusses potential moral issues from eating—or not eating—animals. Through the deeply personal narrative of someone who practiced veganism for 20 years, this unique exploration also discusses alternatives to industrial farming, reveals the risks of a vegan diet, and explains why animals belong on ecologically sound farms.

Review
“Everyone who eats should read this book. Everyone who eats vegetarian should memorize it . . . This is the single most important book I’ve ever read on diet, agriculture, and ecology.” —Aric McBay, author, What We Leave Behind

“This book saved my life . . . [It] offers us a way back into our bodies, and back into the fight to save the planet.” —Derrick Jensen, author, Endgame

“[Vegetarian Myth] is one of the most important books people, masses of them, can read, as we try with all our might, intelligence, skill, hope, dream , and memory, to turn the disastrous course the planet is on.” —Alice Walker, prize-winning author, The Color Purple

“We may not want to face the facts, but Keith sees this as no excuse to stay in denial. If delivered as a speech, you could see that no one in the audience would be [seated] at the end. I have never seen such rousing prose.” —www.ZoeHarcombe.com (August 7, 2011)

“In The Vegetarian Myth ex-vegan Lierre Keith argues that saving the planet and ending the suffering found in factory farms can not be achieved by refusing to eat animals, it can only be achieved by boycotting modern agricultural practices, which Keith calls ‘the most destructive thing that people have done to the planet.’” —www.mercola.com
*
About the Author*

Lierre Keith is a writer, a farmer, and a feminist activist. She is the author of the novels Conditions of War and Skyler Gabriel. She splits her time between Northampton, Massachusetts and Humboldt, California.

 

[Sufjon]

The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability by Lierre Keith

Part memoir, nutritional primer, and political manifesto, this controversial examination exposes the destructive history of agriculture—causing the devastation of*prairies and forests, driving countless species extinct, altering the climate, and destroying the topsoil—and asserts that, in order to save the planet, food must come from within living communities. In order for this to happen, the argument champions eating locally and sustainably and encourages those with the resources to grow their own food.

Further examining the question of what to eat from the perspective of both human and environmental health, the account goes beyond health choices and discusses potential moral issues from eating—or not eating—animals. Through the deeply personal narrative of someone who practiced veganism for 20 years, this unique exploration also discusses alternatives to industrial farming, reveals the risks of a vegan diet, and explains why animals belong on ecologically sound farms.

Review
“Everyone who eats should read this book. Everyone who eats vegetarian should memorize it . . . This is the single most important book I’ve ever read on diet, agriculture, and ecology.” —Aric McBay, author, What We Leave Behind

“This book saved my life . . . [It] offers us a way back into our bodies, and back into the fight to save the planet.” —Derrick Jensen, author, Endgame

“[Vegetarian Myth] is one of the most important books people, masses of them, can read, as we try with all our might, intelligence, skill, hope, dream , and memory, to turn the disastrous course the planet is on.” —Alice Walker, prize-winning author, The Color Purple

“We may not want to face the facts, but Keith sees this as no excuse to stay in denial. If delivered as a speech, you could see that no one in the audience would be [seated] at the end. I have never seen such rousing prose.” —www.ZoeHarcombe.com (August 7, 2011)

“In The Vegetarian Myth ex-vegan Lierre Keith argues that saving the planet and ending the suffering found in factory farms can not be achieved by refusing to eat animals, it can only be achieved by boycotting modern agricultural practices, which Keith calls ‘the most destructive thing that people have done to the planet.’” —www.mercola.com
*
About the Author*

Lierre Keith is a writer, a farmer, and a feminist activist. She is the author of the novels Conditions of War and Skyler Gabriel. She splits her time between Northampton, Massachusetts and Humboldt, California.

The Deep Green Resistance movement that Lierre is affiliated with has some rather interesting ideas, such as the forced dismantling of civilization, which is a rather novel idea I suppose. Her opinions on the health effects of vegetarian diets are not in the mainstream, however, from a personal perspective, I don’t do it for my health anyway. Moreover, I don’t think it’s likely that her organization will be able to enable a transformation of modern society into a world wide Renaissance Festival. If she does, however, I will be on the ready to roam the countryside selling relics, and brushing up on my Middle English.

Your friend,
Sir Sufjon
The Redcrosse Hindu

 

[4elise]

From today’s reading:

Brothers and sisters,
Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do,
do everything for the glory of God.

1 Cor 10:31

It is in the context of Paul answering a question regarding eating meat that had been sacrificed in Roman pagan ritual.

Veganism has no prohibitin or teaching. Follow Christ in all you do. If your conscience is to not eat or use animal products, do do for the glory of God.

Thank you for understanding for some of us this choice IS about following our conscience, and doing so in light of our faith!
Blessings,

 

[4elise]

In the days of the apostles most meat that was available in the pagan Roman Empire was likely to have come from an animal that was sacrificed to a pagan God. Christians used to have a meal after their worship and some people brought meat to eat that was likely sacrificed in this way before it made it to the butcher shop. Some Christians were horrified by the thought of eating animals sacrificed to pagan Gods. Others knew that those Gods were fake and it did not matter. Paul told the meat eaters they were right that it did not matter, but in bringing meat to the community supper they scandalized the vegetarians and so they should not do it.

So if you think factory farms are immoral and don’t want to eat their produce you are fine in doing so. If someone thinks that eating a stressed out chicken is not a problem that is his business.

Your choice is understandable. By the same standard of not participating in or benefiting from cruelty or injustice we should not buy goods produced in cruel sweatshops that exploit humans. We should not buy Apple products, Nike, or just about any electronics or clothing that are produced through human exploitation. How are our pharmaceuticals produced, or cosmetics? Where do the ingredients come from?

Moral theology says when there is an evil act and a person benefits from that act somewhere removed from it they are not culpable for the evil. I do not think the vegetable foods you eat are necessarily produced ethically just because they are vegetables. Farmers use commercial biocides, pesticides, herbicides, organic and inorganic, fertilizers produced in toxic chemical reactors. Even the commercially available organic fertilzers are mass produced generating toxic disharge.

People need to live. They need to eat, wear clothing, stay warm, move from place to place. They do not have to feel guilty for being alive. We can not know what or who was exploited making the shirts we wear, but it is very likely someone was. Justice will not come about by boycotting made in China, or McDonalds. It will come about by spiritual conversion.

Thank you for taking the time to respond so completely - it is not my intention to judge others who eat meat, or who find the practices of factory farming removed enough that they do not feel that they are culpable.

I do believe however that I am responsible when I learn something that I believe is not in keeping with my faith to try to take actions that reflect this knowledge.

If I have a choice between (A) and (B) - and (A) is produced by a company known to exploit people and creation and (B) is not (or is less so) - than my knowledge compels me - I believe - to chose (B) -

I also - do not believe - I will ever be able to do as much as I would like to do to act with justice - but I do what I can, I think all my choices matter - and for me, a vegan diet is a big choice that is in keeping with this belief.

Yes - you are right much produce is produced in ways that could be done better - and this is why we try to chose organic as much as possible, not for the taste, or the health, but for the gift of creation.

I agree, we do not need to feel guilty to be alive. I think we all need to do the best we can, to try to reflect the love of God to others.

I also believe that when we learn something about our choices we should do our best to be sure that we are actually living our faith, and for me this is also reflected in my diet.

Blessings,