veil and mantilla use

[JReducation]

With all due respect brother, I suspect you live in a metropolitan area. I live in a rural area. My sister attended Mass this weekend with her veil. Afterwards I was invited to dinner at a friend’s home and during the course of dinner they proceeded to disaparage my sister (until I pointed out that she WAS my sister, but even then they had to make a few ‘jokes’ at her expense). They also made it clear that they are NOT head covering friendly at ALL… I wear a hat but they presumed I did it because I’m too lazy to do up my hair (yes, really).

So this IS a real problem off the boards as well as on, it just depends where you live.

My sister has been approached by people MANY times who wished to talk her out of veiling, but she has a back bone of steel and refuses to be bullied.

I, however, will not be veiling despite a desire to do so because my parish has made it clear that veiling is very much disliked. I will wear my hat and let them think I’m lazy…

It’s none of their business. Good grief, hundreds of thousands of Japanese are suffering from a major catastrophe, the Haitians are still suffering, the elderly and sick in our country are being euthanized daily. You would think that people would have something else to think about during mass and outside of mass, such as mercy and compassionate ways to help the world. You were more polite than I would be. I would have excused myself and left the lunch.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[xixxvmcm85]

With all due respect brother, I suspect you live in a metropolitan area. I live in a rural area. My sister attended Mass this weekend with her veil. Afterwards I was invited to dinner at a friend’s home and during the course of dinner they proceeded to disaparage my sister (until I pointed out that she WAS my sister, but even then they had to make a few ‘jokes’ at her expense). They also made it clear that they are NOT head covering friendly at ALL… I wear a hat but they presumed I did it because I’m too lazy to do up my hair (yes, really).

So this IS a real problem off the boards as well as on, it just depends where you live.

My sister has been approached by people MANY times who wished to talk her out of veiling, but she has a back bone of steel and refuses to be bullied.

I, however, will not be veiling despite a desire to do so because my parish has made it clear that veiling is very much disliked. I will wear my hat and let them think I’m lazy…

Can I ask you why it is your parish is so hostile to veiling?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

And precisely how does this harm you who are wearing a veil? Why is it worth a second’s consideration or attention? When one is doing what the Church clearly approves of, and what we believe God has called us to do, unless we are creating an unnecessary stumbling block for others, I would not give them an iota, a jot or tittle. Their issues are between them and God.

It doesn’t harm me, I’m always happy to annoy feminists

But anyway, I don’t attend the NO, so I don’t have to worry about it. Most, although not all, women in my parish wear veils.

I use my smartphone to read prayers during Mass. I’ve gotten comments about it before, which I use as nothing more than a check for myself to ensure my motives are pure. Then I go back to focusing on the Lord and pursuing Him and His Kingdom.

As long as people don’t think you’re txting during Mass…

 

[nickybr38]

Can I ask you why it is your parish is so hostile to veiling?

I haven’t had the courage to ask. Honestly I’ve had bigger issues to worry about lately (I was just confirmed this Saturday) and the last thing I wanted to get into an argument about was head covering. I think I should probably try to engage them in discussion (a proper discussion) sometime about head covering just to kind of get a better idea where they’re coming from. Oh and when they were mocking my sister they didn’t go into the WHYs, they just made it clear they thought she was a freak.

 

[JReducation]

I haven’t had the courage to ask. Honestly I’ve had bigger issues to worry about lately (I was just confirmed this Saturday) and the last thing I wanted to get into an argument about was head covering. I think I should probably try to engage them in discussion (a proper discussion) sometime about head covering just to kind of get a better idea where they’re coming from. Oh and when they were mocking my sister they didn’t go into the WHYs, they just made it clear they thought she was a freak.

Personally, if I were a woman, I would not want anything on my head. I hate head coverings. I feel as if I’m going to suffocate whenever we wear our cowls for certain parts of the mass and Divine Office. However, making an issue about it is not a very kind thing to do either. That would be like me making fun of another religious community that does not wear its cowl during liturgy. You don’t pick on people because they worship differently from you. That’s just plain mean.

If your sister wants to wear a veil, why should that bother me? As I said, if I were a woman, I wouldn’t want anything on my head. That feeling of being confined is more distracting than helpful. But if the gal next to me wants to wear a what’s that called, “burka”, fine by me. If you’re wearing something annoying, that’s another story.

I will never forget being at a Pontifical Mass and having to sit behind the Diplomatic Corps. This one lady wore a huge red hat. It was beautiful and probably very expensive. However, I’m very short and I could not see over or around her hat. I felt as if I were sitting behind a red screen. I practically had to rest my head on the shoulders of the brother sitting to my right so that I could see.

If a person wants to cover their head, fine. Just don’t wear something that inconveniences other people. Again, if it does not inconvenience you, then it’s mean and rude to gossip about and make fun of someone.

I know that you said about a small town. I’m no so sure about that. I have been stationed in large cities and small towns as well as the country. The few people that I have met who pay attention to what others are wearing are people who are nosy. Their comments are more out of bad habit. These are the kind of people who don’t have a life of their own. You find them in every size town. Most Catholics don’t care, unless they are inconvenienced. Especially religious. We really don’t pay attention to that stuff. The spiritual life is too rich and profound to waste time paying attention to what other people wear or don’t wear.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[got2praygirl]

I am VERY unhappy right now. I just typed this HUGE post on why I wear the veil and guess what? I wasn’t signed in. Post gone. wishes to hurt something So perhaps satan didn’t want me to say anything. But I will say this: Don’t be afraid to wear the veil. It is not about what people think or say of you. It is about Christ and being more centered on him during your devotions. I have experienced this. Just do it. The veil is a beautiful tradition. I pray that all women return to this form of devotion because along with it will come modesty, femininity, return to the Faith, and strengthened families. 4 things the devil and the culture do NOT want. Wear the veil. You won’t regret it!

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I haven’t had the courage to ask. Honestly I’ve had bigger issues to worry about lately (I was just confirmed this Saturday) and the last thing I wanted to get into an argument about was head covering. I think I should probably try to engage them in discussion (a proper discussion) sometime about head covering just to kind of get a better idea where they’re coming from. Oh and when they were mocking my sister they didn’t go into the WHYs, they just made it clear they thought she was a freak.

Firstly, Congratulations on your recent reception into the Church!

You’ve carried yourself in this thread in such a way that I just assumed you were a cradle Catholic. I love the devotion you’re showing.

A “proper discussion” might be in order, but I think you’d be better served by first figuring out exactly why so many in your parish are against veiling, even if that takes a bit of asking questions in as inconspicuous of a manner as possible. As you have seen in this thread there are various (and often mutually exclusive) hypotheses as to why one might be against veiling, so without knowing the concerns of those in your parish you cannot adequately address them.

I think it’s quite unfortunate (if not down right sad) that members of the Body of Christ would insult other parts of his Body in a manner becoming only of a high school student. I don’t mean to be overly judgmental of your parish, but if the majority are as you have alluded to in the dinner of which you spoke, I cannot help but be upset by their seeming lack of compassion, and I should hope that we’d give our fellow Christians the benefit of the doubt and ascribe to them the most benevolent of intentions!

I also find it sort of odd that the metropolitan areas (as you mentioned) would be more tolerant of veiling than the rural areas. One would typically expect the opposite to be true. I can, nonetheless, testify to what you say. I live in San Francisco, California and there are probably 10+ women who veil on Sunday Mass at the Ordinary Form, all of whom participate with the most liberal of dissenters without any contention.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

I haven’t had the courage to ask. Honestly I’ve had bigger issues to worry about lately (I was just confirmed this Saturday) and the last thing I wanted to get into an argument about was head covering. I think I should probably try to engage them in discussion (a proper discussion) sometime about head covering just to kind of get a better idea where they’re coming from. Oh and when they were mocking my sister they didn’t go into the WHYs, they just made it clear they thought she was a freak.

I’m sorry to hear people were treating both you and your sister in that way. I live in a small town also and no one veils. There are a couple of hat wearers and scarf wearers, myself included, but I have yet to see a veil, but I don’t think it is that way in all small towns. I am more comfortable veiling when I go into the city, which isn’t very far away.

I hope you attend a large enough parish that you can learn that probably not all the women feel that way about your sister’s veil and maybe there are others who admire your sister for wearing it and would like to wear one also if given the courage. Where I live there are about 3000 people and almost everyone is Catholic so if anything happens in the Church it is known throughout the town. I have come to learn though, that not everyone always feels the same way about something as the ones do who are doing the talking.

There is a smaller church in a little village not too far from me that I veil at and no one pays me any attention but then it’s is usually during the week.

It is very hard to go against the grain.

 

[nickybr38]

It is very hard to go against the grain.

Where I struggle is not wanting to stand out. Well, in a parish where no one wears a veil, a veil stands out. So I cannot do as I wish because it will set me in a position I’m not comfortable in. Going against the grain is a lot like rubbing a cat in the wrong direction - you’re gonna’ get scratched. I keep thinking; you gotta pick your battles. And quite frankly I’m not convinced this is a battle I want to take on.

xixxvmcm85 -
“You’ve carried yourself in this thread in such a way that I just assumed you were a cradle Catholic. I love the devotion you’re showing.”

Thank you!

I assumed a metro area would be more accepting simply because there is more variety. People are used to seeing others who are markedly different then themselves. Whereas, in a small town a group mentality tends to take place, along with small cliques and gossip circles. Small towns tend to encourage everyone to be exactly the same. I’ve lived in very few small towns that are open minded.

Anyway, I didn’t intend to spark a discussion contrary to the OP, I just wanted to point out that veil hostility is real offline and online… I guess it just depends where you live.

 

[Jayne_L]

This thread has been really encouraging. I’ve been wanting to cover for a long time now (since I entered the church 2 years ago) but I’m having a lot of issues. The closest anyone comes to covering at my parish is one lady who wears a beret - and we have over 1000 families. I’ve worn a hat/beenie twice and on both occasions someone mentioned it.

I really struggle with standing out. I suffer from sever anxiety and social phobia so anything that makes me stand out more than I already do is incredibly difficult. Even without a covering I have to sit at the back of the church because the thought of somoene sitting behind me and being able to see me distresses me. I’m working on it with help from a good catholic psychologist, but it’s really frustrating.

I’ve worn a scarf once to the Cathedral, which wasn’t so bad because I don’t know anyone but I was still uncomfortable.

I have just found a traditional latin mass in my city and I think I’ll go there this Sunday. I’m hoping that there are more covering ladies there and I’ll be more comfortable. We’ll see. I’m working towards it and I’m sure that one day I’ll have the strength.

I really admire you ladies that are doing it in parishes where you are facing opposition. Good for you!

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Just came back from daily mass at my parish downtown and saw a homeless woman using a plastic shopping bag as a veil. She was the only woman bothering to veil. Naturally she was met with some strange looks.

I couldn’t help but think of all the women in this thread who have mentioned desiring to veil but being reluctant to do so due to perception and the reaction of others. I thought this little anecdote might be a wee bit helpful for such posters in finding their nerve to go against the grain

 

[Lady_Modesty]

Serious question about the veils and mantillas.

Why the restricted use of pure white or black veils made from furniture dollie material?

New here, but wanted to say, I have a beautiful brown one that has flecks of gold in it; as well as my black ones of course.

 

[ANNE_2]

The use of a veil and/or mantilla is entirely up to each individual woman at both forms of the Mass.
It’s no one else’s business.
I also choose to wear a mantilla most of the time in the Church.
We can’t give enough respect to Our Lord.

For those who are interested, you can purchase one from most internet Catholic catalogs, and some Catholic stores.
ewtnreligiouscatalogue.com/shop.axd/Search?keywords=mantilla

Cardinal Raymond Burke has stated that
“The wearing of a chapel veil for women is not required when women assist at the Holy Mass according to Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.
It is, however, the expectation that women who assist at the Mass according to the Extraordinary Form cover their heads, as was the practice at the time that the 1962 Missale Romanum was in force.
It is not, however a sin to participate in the Holy Mass according to the Extraordinary Form without a veil.”
timothyandtitus.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/womens-headcovering-at-mass/

 

[qOcOp]

@OP: Since veiling is not obligatory the choice to and when to veil is up to you.

I know its going to sound funny but I wish us guys were allowed to wear some type of head covering. You know something like what the Jewish men wore in Temple during the old days. Does anyone know if orthodox Jews still do this?

I like seeing veild women at Church. Everytime I see them it makes me think of Our Blessed Mother and the other Holy Women in the Bible.

 

[RC1947]

Regarding head coverings for women, the rule is to wear something on the head in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle or on the altar during Mass. In a place where the Blessed Sacrament is not reserved, put the veil on when Mass begins. It’s best if the hair is covered at least to the shoulder more or less, and the veil may be any color, though loud colors are a distraction to others. Hats are fine, scarves are fine; little round doilies are handy for the purpose of popping into church for a visit. They don’t quite fulfill the requirement but are better than nothing. As for standing out in a crowd of hatless women, be of good courage and remember that respect for Our Lord and Church law–(if the law was abrogated please tell me)–supercedes human respect.
Pat

 

[JReducation]

@OP: Since veiling is not obligatory the choice to and when to veil is up to you.

I know its going to sound funny but I wish us guys were allowed to wear some type of head covering. You know something like what the Jewish men wore in Temple during the old days. Does anyone know if orthodox Jews still do this?

Jewish men wear a kippah, in Italian, a suchetto.

The only men in the Catholic Churches who cover our heads are clerics and certain religious orders. Mine does. I don’t like it. It’s very hot in the summer, because our cowl is lined with three layers of canvas to keep it firm. After the first few months, you learn to live with it and putting it up and down becomes almost automatic. If I had founded the order, I would have chosen a suchetto instead of a cowl. It’s lightweight.

I like seeing veild women at Church. Everytime I see them it makes me think of Our Blessed Mother and the other Holy Women in the Bible.

This is rather interesting, because Jewish women did not cover their heads 24/7. We have an artist’s imagination when it comes to Our Lady. The rules were pretty much the same for men and women, with some minor differences. Jewish men used prayer shawls. Orthodox Jews still do. I know my brothers still do it. Jewish women wore veils and in more modern times, some wore wigs.

Veiling among Jewish women was never as strict as it is among some the ultra conservative Muslims. If you want to get an idea of how the Blessed Mother used her veil, the best modern example may be Hindu women. It comes on and off for very specific settings. The veil certainly was a part of Middle Eastern/Asia Minor cultures and religious practices. But men also covered their heads. You often see Eastern Catholic monks who will wear a black veil.

It was only in the Latin Church that men stopped covering their heads, except for monarchs, clergy and religious. Today, Eastern Catholic men in the Middle East no longer cover their heads in church, but they do on the street. It’s very interesting. They are very proud of being Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian, Lebanese, etc, even though they are Catholic or Orthodox.

I don’t know if I have addressed your point about men, Jews and Our Lady. I hope so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[qOcOp]

Jewish men wear a kippah, in Italian, a suchetto.

The only men in the Catholic Churches who cover our heads are clerics and certain religious orders. Mine does. I don’t like it. It’s very hot in the summer, because our cowl is lined with three layers of canvas to keep it firm. After the first few months, you learn to live with it and putting it up and down becomes almost automatic. If I had founded the order, I would have chosen a suchetto instead of a cowl. It’s lightweight.

You will probably laugh at me when I tell you this but one of the reasons for why I have always liked the Franciscan and Carmelite order is because the cowl is used during Mass. Yet dont worry Br. because if I was to pursue a vocation in the religious life this would not be a deciding factor for me lol. Now correct me if I’m wrong but the cowl is used to represent mourning right?

This is rather interesting, because Jewish women did not cover their heads 24/7. We have an artist’s imagination when it comes to Our Lady. The rules were pretty much the same for men and women, with some minor differences. Jewish men used prayer shawls. Orthodox Jews still do. I know my brothers still do it. Jewish women wore veils and in more modern times, some wore wigs.

Veiling among Jewish women was never as strict as it is among some the ultra conservative Muslims. If you want to get an idea of how the Blessed Mother used her veil, the best modern example may be Hindu women. It comes on and off for very specific settings. The veil certainly was a part of Middle Eastern/Asia Minor cultures and religious practices. But men also covered their heads. You often see Eastern Catholic monks who will wear a black veil.

It was only in the Latin Church that men stopped covering their heads, except for monarchs, clergy and religious. Today, Eastern Catholic men in the Middle East no longer cover their heads in church, but they do on the street. It’s very interesting. They are very proud of being Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian, Lebanese, etc, even though they are Catholic or Orthodox.

I don’t know if I have addressed your point about men, Jews and Our Lady. I hope so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I was reading the Life of Christ based off of the visions of Sr. Emmerick and she had described Blessed Mothers veil in the same way. She gave an account of the training Mary went through as a Temple Virgin and the instructon she received regarding the proper use of her veil during specific settings. It was all very very interesting.

Also yes you more than answered my questions Br. JR. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with me. I love hearing about stuff like this.

 

[Lady_Modesty]

This is rather interesting, because Jewish women did not cover their heads 24/7. We have an artist’s imagination when it comes to Our Lady. The rules were pretty much the same for men and women, with some minor differences. Jewish men used prayer shawls. Orthodox Jews still do. I know my brothers still do it. Jewish women wore veils and in more modern times, some wore wigs.

That is interesting to learn because I personally know several Orthodox Jewish women and they seem to cover all the time, not just at temple but at work and home etc. I wonder why the change then? I just assumed it had been the custom/law always of Jewish women and since they are Orthodox they continued on with it, where as more modern Jewish women do not. I’ll have to ask them about it.

 

[karow]

That is interesting to learn because I personally know several Orthodox Jewish women and they seem to cover all the time, not just at temple but at work and home etc. I wonder why the change then? I just assumed it had been the custom/law always of Jewish women and since they are Orthodox they continued on with it, where as more modern Jewish women do not. I’ll have to ask them about it.

The women you know are following tzniut, Jewish laws about modesty. It’s my understanding that tzniut requires married women to cover their hair, that after a woman is married only her husband is allowed the privilege of seeing her hair. Some married women wear snoods or tichels, others cover with wigs and falls. There are also rules about clothing covering the collarbone, elbows, and knees.

It can get pretty complex; I’ve read essays about tzniut that referred to anatomy textbooks to establish exactly where the neck ends and the collarbone begins, for example. These laws don’t just refer to women; there are modestly laws for the guys as well. And then there’s the mikvah…

 

[ANNE_2]

One record of women’s and men’s head coverings is in the Bible - New Testament, first letter of Paul to the Corinthians.

See 1 Cor 11:1-16