veil and mantilla use

[JReducation]

That is interesting to learn because I personally know several Orthodox Jewish women and they seem to cover all the time, not just at temple but at work and home etc. I wonder why the change then? I just assumed it had been the custom/law always of Jewish women and since they are Orthodox they continued on with it, where as more modern Jewish women do not. I’ll have to ask them about it.

Orthodox Jews are somewhat like Orthodox Christians and even Right Wing Muslims. My family would kill me for saying this. I was born and raised an Orthodox Jew until I eventually became a Catholic. That’s another story for another day.

The point that I’m trying to make is that Orthodox Jews are not part of mainstream Judaism. They are to Judaism what the Orthodox are to Catholicism. Like the Orthodox Christians, they are very rich in tradition and mysticism. They are also very protective of customs. And many of them are very holy people and I’m sure that we’ll meet in heaven. They won’t do anything that they believe may offend God, which is good. One should not want to offend God.

That being said, like every group that goes to the right or the left, there is always a rather interesting result. Things that were once practice for a specific reason, suddenlty become a value unto themselves and they take on a higher meaning, even a religious meaning that was not there originally.

We have to take the Blessed Mother, not in the context of today’s Orthodox Jews, but in the context of faithful Jews of her time. There are visionaries who claim to know what Our Lady’s life was like. As long as they don’t say anything contrary to dogma, that’s fine. However, based on pure history, what do we know about the veiling customs of that period.?

We know that women covered their heir fro two major reasons, probably some other reasons too. The one was hygiene. Judaism is very big on cleanliness. Remember the old custom of jugs of water by the door? When you live in place that has a lot of dust long before the invention of shampoo and soap, and you’re too poor to afford fancy oils and smelly stuff, you do the best you can to keep your hair clean. You veil when you’re outside. You even veil is you’re cooking to avoid the smell of food sticking to your hair.

There was also the religious reason for veiling. It goes back to Moses. Tradition tells us that Moses covered his head when he went up to the mountain. Others say that the veiling came from the night that they ate the Pesach when the Lord commanded that they dress ready to travel, with staff and their belongins ready. We don’t know. We were not there. However, something happened, because the Jews covered their heads when they went to temple, males and females. Those who could not go to temple would say the Shabbat prayers in the home. They lit the candles and prayed. They would cover their heads, but only during the prayer, not at the table. Only men cover their heads at the table, not women. My guess is that it was a practical concern. Veils get in the way of serving and attending to young children if you have to bend over a lot.

My educated guess is that Our Lady was very practical in her veiling. She complied with the rules for the temple and the home. She also complied with the laws for cleanliness, today called, Kosher. But veiling had nothing to do with submission to Joseph, because he too was veiled. Nor did it have anything to do with modesty, because even working women wore veils to keep their hair clean. It certainly did not look like the veils that we see on statues and paintings. That would not keep your hair clean and it would fall off. It would be more like a scarf that you wrap or like a sari that is held in place by your belt or cincture and pins. They did have hair pins, we know this from ancient acheological finds in Egypt.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ANNE_2]

Orthodox Jews are somewhat like Orthodox Christians and even Right Wing Muslims. My family would kill me for saying this. I was born and raised an Orthodox Jew until I eventually became a Catholic. That’s another story for another day.

The point that I’m trying to make is that Orthodox Jews are not part of mainstream Judaism. They are to Judaism what the Orthodox are to Catholicism. Like the Orthodox Christians, they are very rich in tradition and mysticism. They are also very protective of customs. And many of them are very holy people and I’m sure that we’ll meet in heaven. They won’t do anything that they believe may offend God, which is good. One should not want to offend God.

That being said, like every group that goes to the right or the left, there is always a rather interesting result. Things that were once practice for a specific reason, suddenlty become a value unto themselves and they take on a higher meaning, even a religious meaning that was not there originally.

We have to take the Blessed Mother, not in the context of today’s Orthodox Jews, but in the context of faithful Jews of her time. There are visionaries who claim to know what Our Lady’s life was like. As long as they don’t say anything contrary to dogma, that’s fine. However, based on pure history, what do we know about the veiling customs of that period.?

We know that women covered their heir fro two major reasons, probably some other reasons too. The one was hygiene. Judaism is very big on cleanliness. Remember the old custom of jugs of water by the door? When you live in place that has a lot of dust long before the invention of shampoo and soap, and you’re too poor to afford fancy oils and smelly stuff, you do the best you can to keep your hair clean. You veil when you’re outside. You even veil is you’re cooking to avoid the smell of food sticking to your hair.

There was also the religious reason for veiling. It goes back to Moses. Tradition tells us that Moses covered his head when he went up to the mountain. Others say that the veiling came from the night that they ate the Pesach when the Lord commanded that they dress ready to travel, with staff and their belongins ready. We don’t know. We were not there. However, something happened, because the Jews covered their heads when they went to temple, males and females. Those who could not go to temple would say the Shabbat prayers in the home. They lit the candles and prayed. They would cover their heads, but only during the prayer, not at the table. Only men cover their heads at the table, not women. My guess is that it was a practical concern. Veils get in the way of serving and attending to young children if you have to bend over a lot.

My educated guess is that Our Lady was very practical in her veiling. She complied with the rules for the temple and the home. She also complied with the laws for cleanliness, today called, Kosher. But veiling had nothing to do with submission to Joseph, because he too was veiled. Nor did it have anything to do with modesty, because even working women wore veils to keep their hair clean. It certainly did not look like the veils that we see on statues and paintings. That would not keep your hair clean and it would fall off. It would be more like a scarf that you wrap or like a sari that is held in place by your belt or cincture and pins. They did have hair pins, we know this from ancient acheological finds in Egypt.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

So are you saying that you know more than St. Paul ? New Testament 1:Cor 11:1-16 regarding the traditions at the time of Jesus?

 

[Springkeeper]

I wore a veil during my brief time in a Baptist church and I intend to continue in the Catholic church.

I have to confess I’ve not yet been to a Catholic service. I am waiting until after Easter to go talk to a Priest about RCIA.
I DID feel kind of self conscious veiling. Still we should follow our consciences so long as it is line with church teaching.

Welcome to the beginning of a great adventure!

I covered in my previous church (fundamentalist Baptist over 20 years) and continued in the Catholic church. I was given a much harder time in the Baptist church but it really forced me to research the Bible and history and pray to discern the Lord’s will. I can also tell you that issue forced me to become a much stronger person and even gave me the strength to leave and become Catholic.

 

[JReducation]

So are you saying that you know more than St. Paul ? New Testament 1:Cor 11:1-16 regarding the traditions at the time of Jesus?

I’m saying that in Catholic Exegesis we understand what St. Paul is talking about and so did the people of his time. That’s why he does not go into great detail as I have done here. He did not need to do so… People knew what he meant, because they knew their customs and their history. To understand Paul, we have to do some Exegesis.

A great example of Caholic Exegesis is Pope Benedict’s books on Jeus of Nazareth. Many things that we thought we understood turn out to be a little different when you put them in historical context. We’re talking about externals here. The doctrines and morals do not change. Our understanding of the externals change when we understand the history.

For example, we know that St. Paul did not believe this was a universal rule. Why do we know this? Because it’s not mentioned consistently in the Fathers. We can extrapolate the St. Thomas did not take this rule to India and St. James did not take it to Spain and so forth.

When a moral law is universal we see is surface through the entire Church, East and West. This was not one of them. We have to understand when Paul teaches doctrine, morals and disciplinary rules. They are three different areas. In the area of disciplinary rules,he is usually pretty concise, because the people whom he’s correcting know exactly what his concern is. When he goes into doctrine, he is very eleaborate, because it’s new to them.

Catholic exegetes believe that Paul was very upset with these folks because they were acting in ways that was contrary to their moral upbringing. If he were speaking today, he would say something like, “You can dress up for a date, but you look like a slob for a mass. That’s not allowed.” He also seemed to remind them that they were liberated from the old law, but that the part that they were liberated from was the laws that prepared them for the coming of the Messiah, not the rest of the laws. What we know about that time is that many converts to Christianity threw the baby out with the bathwater. Their behavior was unacceptable. If they were appropriate before the Gospel, they should continue to be so after they hear the Gospel. He’s demanding consistency. Veiling was one of those things that was approprate in that time and in that place here Paul was. It’s not mentioned in the other writings, nor was it consistently enforced throughout the Apostolic Churches. It seemed to be according to culture.

Remember what I said. Most cultures in the Middle East / Asia Minor did veil. This was not a major issue for them when they became Christians. How and when they veiled, was diverse. Just look at the difference between Hindus and Arabs. The style and the times when they veil are very different. That’s why Cardinal Burke recently said that veiling in is not required in the Ordinary Form, it is preferred in the Extraordinary Form, but it is not a sin if you do not veil. As the Sumpreme Justice, sort of, he’s looking as cultures and customs. It was a custom to veil in the Tridentine Mass.

In my own community, St. Clare prohibited veiling until a woman made perpetual vows. Even then, she left it up to the superior of each house to decide what the nuns were to wear and she said that they had to factor in culture, customs, climate and individual preferences when making the decision. This was in 1256. That’s why you see Poor Clare nuns with veils, no veils, short veils, long veils, hats, capts and other. There was never a universal agreement on this point in the Catholic Church.

We have to be careful not to take Paul out of context from the rest of the Apostles. He mentions it, but the other apostles are not consistent with Paul, because we don’t see the consistency in other writings. It seems to be important to some and not to others. Just like Clare’s rule. Be practical and faithful.

Does that help?

Fraternally,

Br, JR, OSF

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

So are you saying that you know more than St. Paul ? New Testament 1:Cor 11:1-16 regarding the traditions at the time of Jesus?

I think you’re right. I think 1 Cor 11:1-6 is pretty straightforward.

Also, and I could be wrong but I always understood the reason Jacob didn’t know he was marrying Leah was because of her veiling during the wedding.

 

[Springkeeper]

This thread has been really encouraging. I’ve been wanting to cover for a long time now (since I entered the church 2 years ago) but I’m having a lot of issues. The closest anyone comes to covering at my parish is one lady who wears a beret - and we have over 1000 families. I’ve worn a hat/beenie twice and on both occasions someone mentioned it.

I really struggle with standing out. I suffer from sever anxiety and social phobia so anything that makes me stand out more than I already do is incredibly difficult. Even without a covering I have to sit at the back of the church because the thought of somoene sitting behind me and being able to see me distresses me. I’m working on it with help from a good catholic psychologist, but it’s really frustrating.

I’ve worn a scarf once to the Cathedral, which wasn’t so bad because I don’t know anyone but I was still uncomfortable.

I have just found a traditional latin mass in my city and I think I’ll go there this Sunday. I’m hoping that there are more covering ladies there and I’ll be more comfortable. We’ll see. I’m working towards it and I’m sure that one day I’ll have the strength.

I really admire you ladies that are doing it in parishes where you are facing opposition. Good for you!

Coming from a loooong line of women with anxiety disorders, I hear you! Two bits of advice:
#1. The overwhelming majority of people won’t care at all what’s on your head unless it blocks their view.
#2. Start with a headband or something simple and work from there if you like. Mantillas are not for everyone. I use one at home for private prayer but I wear Jewish scarves and such at Mass because I’m from NY and that is what I am used to and feel comfortable wearing.

You might be surprised at the encouragement you receive.

 

[karow]

Orthodox Jews are somewhat like Orthodox Christians and even Right Wing Muslims.

Since we’re talking about head coverings, do you mean hijabi? It’s my understanding that’s the term for Muslim women who cover their hair and follow the Islamic modesty rules.

 

[Springkeeper]

In my own community, St. Clare prohibited veiling until a woman made perpetual vows. Even then, she left it up to the superior of each house to decide what the nuns were to wear and she said that they had to factor in culture, customs, climate and individual preferences when making the decision. This was in 1256. That’s why you see Poor Clare nuns with veils, no veils, short veils, long veils, hats, capts and other. There was never a universal agreement on this point in the Catholic Church.

We have to be careful not to take Paul out of context from the rest of the Apostles. He mentions it, but the other apostles are not consistent with Paul, because we don’t see the consistency in other writings. It seems to be important to some and not to others. Just like Clare’s rule. Be practical and faithful.

Does that help?

Fraternally,

Br, JR, OSF

Very interesting about the Poor Clares.

One of the things I love about the Catholic church is the rock-bottom insistence on faith and morals and latitude on the externals. My old chuch was completely opposite.

 

[JReducation]

Since we’re talking about head coverings, do you mean hijabi? It’s my understanding that’s the term for Muslim women who cover their hair and follow the Islamic modesty rules.

I’m not sure I know what a hijabi is.

I was just trying to explain how the Orthodox Jews came to be.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MarkThompson]

I think you’re right. I think 1 Cor 11:1-6 is pretty straightforward.

Also, and I could be wrong but I always understood the reason Jacob didn’t know he was marrying Leah was because of her veiling during the wedding.

It’s actually not straightforward at all, and virtually no Traditionalist Catholics actually believe in it. Please note that St. Paul does not say, “Women must have their heads covered in church” or “in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.” What he says is, “But every woman praying … with her head not covered, disgraceth her head. . . . You yourselves judge: doth it become a woman, to pray unto God uncovered?” I’d really be curious to know if there is even a single Catholic out there who thinks that a woman praying at home, for instance before going to bed or saying grace before breakfast, needs to veil.

“Oh,” some will say, “we all know you can’t read Paul literally, you have to take it in context. ‘Every woman praying’ actually means ‘any woman going to church.’ But please don’t accuse me of modernism, because this is the traditional rewriting of 1 Corinthians, even though it disregards the ‘pretty straightforward’ injunction St. Paul sets out.”

 

[JReducation]

It’s actually not straightforward at all, and virtually no Traditionalist Catholics actually believe in it. Please note that St. Paul does not say, “Women must have their heads covered in church” or “in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.” What he says is, “But every woman praying … with her head not covered, disgraceth her head. . . . You yourselves judge: doth it become a woman, to pray unto God uncovered?” I’d really be curious to know if there is even a single Catholic out there who thinks that a woman praying at home, for instance before going to bed or saying grace before breakfast, needs to veil.

“Oh,” some will say, “we all know you can’t read Paul literally, you have to take it in context. ‘Every woman praying’ actually means ‘any woman going to church.’ But please don’t accuse me of modernism, because this is the traditional rewriting of 1 Corinthians, even though it disregards the ‘pretty straightforward’ injunction St. Paul sets out.”

That’s why I said, Paul does not go into details. He assumes that his audience knows what he’s talking about. They do. We’re the ones who are reading the mass, churches, and the Blessed Sacrament into it.

However, we know that this cannot be what he was talking about, because we have several apostles on missions around the world, and we don’t see this moral injunction imposed on all of the churches that they founded. However, we do find other moral teachings and doctrines universally taught.

The example that I gave from the Rule of St. Clare are very telling. As early as the 13th century, we have Clare speaking about place, climate, custom and persons when deciding what to wear. We also see her saying that those in formation should not be given the veil. Had Paul been as plain and clear as we say he is, Clare and other founders would not have made such a rule.

**Chapter II: Rule of the Poor Sisters

Let no one receive the veil during the period of probation.

In fact let the Abbess, with discernment, provide them with clothing according to the diversity of persons, places, seasons and cold climates, as it shall seem expedient to her by necessity.**

We know that they were also given a short mantle, which is a cloak with a hood that they wore to go out. It is still worn by some monasteries, but only when it’s cold. My point is that Paul is not talking about the same situation that we say he is. He has not been applied that way in Christian spirituality. We can go back even further than the 13th century.

I’m not trying to discourage anyone from wearing a veil. Just don’t do exegesis in a manner that is not consistent with the way that the Church does exegesis.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Okay, so I’ve been coming to the conclusion more and more that I would like to cover my head at Mass. The only thing is, I go to a small town church and literally nobody covers their head at mass, so I was wondering if any women have found a creative way to cover their head that won’t make others in the parish uncomfortable. I feel like it’s a personal thing that I’d like to do, but I don’t want to make others feel that I’m being “holier than though”. I’m a Cradle Catholic, but not from a highly traditional family (They are politically conservative, but not necessarily Conservative Catholics). I feel like my own parents might not approve (I’m in my 20s, but we still go to the same church).

 

[PennyinCanada]

There are plenty of pretty ladies scarfs available, the kind they wear around their necks. Buy a few colors and have it loop over the top of your head when you step into the church. It will look very modest and lady like.

Very Jacqueline Kennedy.

 

[TrueLight]

Okay, so I’ve been coming to the conclusion more and more that I would like to cover my head at Mass. The only thing is, I go to a small town church and literally nobody covers their head at mass, so I was wondering if any women have found a creative way to cover their head that won’t make others in the parish uncomfortable. I feel like it’s a personal thing that I’d like to do, but I don’t want to make others feel that I’m being “holier than though”. I’m a Cradle Catholic, but not from a highly traditional family (They are politically conservative, but not necessarily Conservative Catholics). I feel like my own parents might not approve (I’m in my 20s, but we still go to the same church).

You can wear a hat or large headband.

Here is a nice thread on veiling.

 

[MissRose73]

I don’t own a mantilla. I do own several plain black long scarves/shawls.

I have worn one a few times at a few other churches either for Mass or adoration, and no one gave me any looks for choosing to wearing one. I felt that I was being reverent. It will take me time to always wear headcovering. I chose to wear a covering when I went to adore the Blessed Sacrament on Holy Thursday, and no one was offended.

I do not judge others for wearing a mantilla, veil or headcovering, or lack of one. Its their choice.

However, when I wore one to Easter Mass and my mother & sister’s kids sat with me, my mother said, “Take that thing off”. I did not remove it and stuck to what I wanted to do - I am not a teen but a grown woman. But the good thing was my 11 year nephew who understood that I was being respectful & said it looked good on me, and his sister did not worry if I wore it.

The weird thing about my mother saying that is she grew up in the 1950’s/1960’s when women ALWAYS veiled or wore hats to Mass. Maybe when the go ahead for women to shed hats/veils, she must have made sure hers went on the wayside.

 

[odile53]

I posted something about this on another thread: For me, wearing a veil to a weekday Mass backfired.

I’m in my fifties, was very covered up (thick wool pants, a sweater, and a heavy trench coat) because of the very chilly and windy weather. I put on a mantilla over my hair, which I usually wear in a bun. It was hardly an alluring look, it was far more reminiscent of something you would have seen in Stalinist Moscow in January. I looked like every other person bundled up against the cold.

Two young men who looked to be in their twenties kept staring at me in church. Do you know the feeling you get when you sense someone is staring at you? This totally creeped me out.

I figured it was the mantilla that had drawn their stares, and nearly resolved to leave that thing in the car!

Maybe I should have worn a babushka.

 

[JReducation]

I posted something about this on another thread: For me, wearing a veil to a weekday Mass backfired.

I’m in my fifties, was very covered up (thick wool pants, a sweater, and a heavy trench coat) because of the very chilly and windy weather. I put on a mantilla over my hair, which I usually wear in a bun. It was hardly an alluring look, it was far more reminiscent of something you would have seen in Stalinist Moscow in January. I looked like every other person bundled up against the cold.

Two young men who looked to be in their twenties kept staring at me in church. Do you know the feeling you get when you sense someone is staring at you? This totally creeped me out.

I figured it was the mantilla that had drawn their stares, and nearly resolved to leave that thing in the car!

Maybe I should have worn a babushka.

It could have also been a “fashion” issue. We associate mantillas and certain veils with fancy clothes. I can see how the young men, who if they are very young, did not grow up with women wearing mantillas over their daily clothes. They see it on TV or the Internet worn with formal dress. I have to admit, that today I too find it jarring to the eyes to see lace with a trench coat. My head tells me that the one has nothing to do with the other. My eyes don’t seem to pay attention. It’s visual thing, not a judgment that such people are making.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cat]

I have the feeling that after the wedding (Prince William and Princess Catherine) that hats are going to become very popular in the U.S.!! I even thought about going out and purchasing one!

Many ladies recovering from cancer wear hats or scarves, and look very pretty.

Hats have always been popular in many African American churches.

Also, in our large, very modern parish, there are several women, both young and old, who wear mantillas or veils to Mass and at Adoration or Benediction. Frankly, no one pays much attention to the head-covering. They are sweet women who are friendly and kind, devoted to the Lord and to their families, and that’s the important thing. It’s the heart, not the head-covering, that is what makes a woman “Catholic.”

 

[lizaanne]

Please consider joining the CAF Social Group Veiled in Grace

There are tons of ideas there, as well as links to resources where you can find all sorts of headcoverings.

We would love to have you!

~Liza

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut from everyone! I might start with getting some thick headbands. I think it would put me in a state of humility because it’s not something I would ordinarily wear (got my hair cut chin length/just past recently, so it’s difficult to tie back). I might try some scarves too, tied right, I don’t think anyone would be offended or think I was trying to stand out.