Veiled Islamic Contempt for Jesus?

[Grey_Pilgrim]

As I was praying the sorrowful mysteries of the rosary, my mind began to wander somewhat, and I began to think about the basic understanding that I have about Islamic “theology” concerning who we Catholics KNOW to be the only begotten son of God and indeed God himself, Jesus Christ. Basically, my understanding is that Islam states that Jesus was, “a great prophet” but essentially was just another in a long line of prophets culminating in Mohammed. They further assert that it was NOT Jesus who was crucified at all, but instead was someone whom the Roman and Jewish authorities TOOK TO BE JESUS that actually endured the passion and subsequent horrific death by crucifixion meant for Christ; while Jesus himself alluded any such fate and instead was “taken up into heaven” without having undergone any sort of suffering, let alone death.

My question is this. Let’s suppose for the sake of argument, that Jesus WAS in fact just a prophet. What prophet, from Abraham, to Noah, to Moses, to Elijah and Isaiah, to all of the others in the Old Testament, would be so utterly cowardly and self-centered, as to be willing to let innocent blood be spilled in place of their own so as to escape their fate? NONE OF THE prophets in the Old Testament (of which many Muslims acknowledge if I am not mistaken), EVER shirked his own looming doom at the hands of those he came to prophesy to, letting someone else become the “fall guy” instead! It almost seems like Islam is making a statement about Jesus that veils a hidden contempt and complete disbelief in even the prophetic position of Jesus, like they’re actually saying, “oh yea sure Jesus was a prophet, albeit an extremely cowardly one that would rather let someone else die in his place than face his own destiny.” How does the church reconcile this seeming contradiction and contemptuous position of Islam in their attempts at ecumenical dialogue with Islam? It’s like adding insult to extreme injury in my opinion, by their saying that not only was Jesus NOT the Messiah, but he wasn’t even a profit along the lines of Elijah, Isaiah, and all the others. I just don’t get how anyone could even BEGIN to think that Islam is close to Christianity, for this and for many other reasons.

Finally, wouldn’t the guy who was mistaken for Jesus, even if he was an extremely loyal friend, follower, or what have you, cry out probably VERY early on in the passion he would have had to undergo, something along the lines of, “HEY YOU’VE GOT THE WRONG GUY!!!”

I have had people say in response to this question that then the Muslims would just say that the new Testament has been corrupted and so we can’t trust what it says about the account of this “Jesus look-alike’s” passion and death, to which I say then how could they even say that this “look alike” was crucified at all? Isn’t THAT knowledge from the same supposedly “corrupted Scripture” as well? I just don’t get it, but wanted to see what others out there had to say about this.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… They further assert that it was NOT Jesus who was crucified at all, but instead was someone whom the Roman and Jewish authorities TOOK TO BE JESUS …

Hi Grey Pilgrim,

Muslims believe this because it is in their scripture (Qur’an 4:157). Personally, I believe it to be such a foolish story, and only a fool would believe it.

There is too much history evidence and biblical prophecy to doubt the seriousness of the crucifixion, not too mention that God marked the event with a very timely lunar eclipse that occurred in Jerusalem at around 3PM on Friday 3rd April 33 AD…

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Hey thanks for the reply Charlie, I appreciate it. While I am relieved to hear that this particular story is regarded with some skepticism by you personally, if it remains in the Quran doesn’t that mean that as a faithful Muslim you are called to believe what it says, or is it more a matter of “picking and choosing” that which is accurate from that which is inaccurate? Because even if this is the case, obviously the original writers of this particular passage either firmly believed that Jesus was in fact cowardly enough and selfish enough to let someone else take the fall for him, or else they were attempting to sow seeds of contempt, discord, and disbelief among those Arab Christians whom they were trying to convert. Either way it is a pretty suspect thing to do. The astrological happenings that you speak of happening at the time Jesus was crucified sound very fascinating indeed; certainly they would seem to indicate someone more important than a “Jesus look alike” being the one who was crucified! Thanks again for the reply Charlie, God love you.

 

[acavender]

They further assert that it was NOT Jesus who was crucified at all, but instead was someone whom the Roman and Jewish authorities TOOK TO BE JESUS that actually endured the passion and subsequent horrific death by crucifixion meant for Christ; while Jesus himself alluded any such fate and instead was “taken up into heaven” without having undergone any sort of suffering, let alone death.

My question is this. Let’s suppose for the sake of argument, that Jesus WAS in fact just a prophet. What prophet, from Abraham, to Noah, to Moses, to Elijah and Isaiah, to all of the others in the Old Testament, would be so utterly cowardly and self-centered, as to be willing to let innocent blood be spilled in place of their own so as to escape their fate?

You ask an interesting question, but it follows from what’s said in the first paragraph ONLY if Jesus, according to the Islamic understanding, knew that someone else was getting picked up and executed instead of him, and could have done anything about it even if he did know.

I’m not well-versed in what Islam teaches about Jesus, but based on what’s been posted here, I see no need to infer any veiled contempt. Even if it were true that it wasn’t actually Jesus who was crucified (an idea I reject, for the record), it could well be nothing more sinister than a simple case of mistaken identity.

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Hey Acavender
Well that’s exactly right and you make a good point, though I doubt that Jesus would NOT know about someone being crucified after having been mistaken for him, especially given the large amount of plotting that the Pharisees had been doing to get him killed up to that point. Also, He was immensely popular if we are to believe the scriptures in which alternately 5,000 and then 7,000 people have gathered to hear him preach; no small number in ancient times, so someone would have told him Plus, if he DID know that someone was going to be killed in his place (which for the record I too do not believe for even a moment), then OF COURSE there was something he could have done, and should have done if he was a great prophet and not a great coward only interested in self-preservation, namely announce that they have the wrong guy and that HE is Jesus. Did you ever hear of any prophet in the Old Testament seeing someone else being tortured and subsequently killed when it should have been them and then their being like “oh well at least I am still good to go.” Of course it was in fact Jesus who was crucified, I am not asserting that there was even a possibility that there wasn’t. But the fact that Muslims seem to believe that Jesus was “a GREAT prophet” but that it was NOT he who was crucified but rather someone who was mistaken for him, does not jive. That is not the description of a great prophet that is the description of a great coward, which is why I think there is a veiled contempt for even the prophetic nature of Jesus in that belief. Thanks for the feedback Acavender, God love you.

 

[Alexius]

I am not “well-versed” myself, but I do know a thing or two about Islam. Call me old school, but I consider Islam to be one of many continuations of the classic Arian heresy. These include the Jehoveh’s Witnesses and Arian “Catholics.” Muslims do not believe Christ died on a cross and they have the Qur’an and another prophet, but their principle teachings still reflect Arius’ teachings (Condemned at the First Council of Nicaea in 325). Arianism denies Christ’s divinity and the Trinity; two majors cornerstones of Islamic teaching. As for Jesus, Muslims have a deep respect for Christ and his mother (both of whom are believed to be w/o sin). They believe that his birth was a miracle and teach many stories about him (usually from apocryphal sources). In Ephesus, there is a mosque dedicated to Jesus located next to St. John’s Church (or what is left of it).

If there are any other questions about Jesus and Islam, I can try to clear them up…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Hey Alexius
Thanks for the reply to my original post; I found it to be very insightful and interesting if not completely satisfactory. I never saw the potential connection between Islam and Aryanism before, but you raise some interesting points connecting the two attempts to undermine and ultimately overthrow Christianity. I am familiar with the Islamic view of Mary, though I was not aware that they considered both her and Jesus to be without sin. I know that early on in the church’s history (well when Islam had been founded so I guess about 1600 years ago?) Muslims actually were very vigorous defenders of Mary’s virginity, the Immaculate Conception etc. In fact, I think she has an entire chapter in the Quran dedicated to her if I am not mistaken, no? And while I will take you at your word regarding Muslim’s view of Jesus, this very fact unfortunately leads me right back to my original question. If Muslims supposedly have so much respect for Jesus and consider him to be this great prophet that came before Mohammed, then WHY would they state that it was NOT Jesus who was crucified but was in fact someone else that the authorities took to be Jesus?? THAT IS NOT THE DESCRIPTION OF A GREAT PROPHET BUT A GREAT COWARD. Please review my original post and subsequent responses to others for more of my thoughts about this but suffice it to say that either early Muslims did NOT hold Jesus with the high esteem purported to be held by the Muslim faithful today, or else they were intentionally presenting him as this cowardly self-serving person who would rather let someone else take the fall for him instead of facing his own fate.

This is not a characteristic of ANY of the other prophets that preceded Jesus in any of the “Abrahamic religions,” which is why I see this is a way of Muslims basically saying that not only was Jesus NOT the messiah and indeed was NOT divine, he also was not even on a level with any of the other prophets that had come before him. Rather according to Islam he was someone who would rather escape his fate than embrace it, according to the Islamic account of this supposed Jesus look alike’s passion and death as reported in the Quran. This is not something that is in any way respectful to the mission and ultimate fate of who we Christians know to be the only begotten son of the living God, and despite all of the very thorough and thought provoking responses from posters such as you, no one has properly addressed this seeming contradiction in Muslim “scripture” and subsequent proclamation. If they think that Jesus was a great prophet, yet think that He would rather let someone else die instead of him or else would allow someone else to die that the authorities thought was him, this does NOT describe a great prophet at all but a great coward, and so I don’t see them as respecting Jesus in any meaningful way at all, at least not when they put this into the Quran in an effort to convert the Arab Christians that they were preaching to at that time. Thanks again for your insights Alexius, Peace and all Good to you.

 

[Alexius]

I would be delighted to respond to this, however, it is very late and I am extremely tired. If I am to give you a good answer (which as far as I tell, I can), then I need to be focused. Sorry about this - as soon as I am able, I will respond .

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Angelos]

Hi there

It is apparent that Muslim faith in and reverence for Christ Jesus is just a pretense like their flawed creed about someone’s substituting for the supposedly Islamic prophet Issa during the passion. Actually, Muslims seem to believe, but they keep cursing Jesus & His Church as well as everything taught by Him since they claim to have a better prophet & a better revelation. If u read the Quran as a Christian, you’ll but feel that Mohammed bin Abdullah & his scripture are elevated upon Jesus & all the other prophets of the Old Testament. We see Mohammed trampling upon Christian & Jewish faith to validate his assertions. All the prophets sent to Jews submit themselves to Mohammed’s religion and praise him as the only messenger that can establish Islam on earth! Thus, all other prophets denote failure versus Mohammed, who denotes success in Islam.

As for the Islamic denial of the crucifixion, it is based on gnostic teachings with no theological foundation. Allah delights in deceiving Jews through a miraculous illusion by abusing Jesus’ appearance.

(I wrote the passage below in response to an Islamic forum)

An abrupt and drastic shift from the essential faith of universal salvation in Christianity to the degradation of Jews in the Quran marks Jesus of Nazareth as an amazingly powerful *political weapon *and tool of anti-Jewish sentiments. Jesus son of Mary can no longer be viewed on the life-giving tree of the cross, bearing the title of the savior of mankind, he is absolutely removed from the cross and the basic Christian concept of God’s saving sacrifice. Consequently, Jesus ceases to represent divine love and grace extended by the merciful Father, who embraces the converting sinners that believe in the power of his Son, but begins to stand for the prevalent instrument of divine hatred against Jewish community. The image of Jesus as the celestial sacrifice somehow manages to keep its presence in the Quran; however, there is a radical change in the definition and function of the word “sacrifice” because the Islamic Jesus is not the lamb offered for the eternal covenant between God the Father and his children, but is compelled to be a perfect sacrifice to the challenging Islamic ideology of the irresistible desire to take revenge from Jews, the murderers of all the messengers of the past so that the ultimate triumph can be firmly placed in the mighty hands of Allah, who curses Jews through David and Jesus . The assumption that Jesus’ crucifixion was but an optical illusion provided by Allah’s might and wisdom, is actually the prominent fruit and success of a long-term *political campaign *that endeavors to designate “the Jewish” as “the foolish”. Such a struggle is apparent in the Islamic supposition that Allah, despite his primary attribute of honesty, managed to fool the Jews by making them kill someone else in Jesus’ stead. Deception of the Jew and the deprivation of the true knowledge about Jesus’ death perfectly mirror the Islamic will to drag people of different faiths into an argument about the wrongdoings and offences of dead Jews and demonstrate that the **celestial deceptive strategy **employed in the Quran is a permanent one passed on to the coming generations like an eternal curse condemning the Jewish race to ignorance and foolishness.

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Good afternoon Angelos

Wow, thank you for what is definitely the most thorough and direct answer to my questions/concerns about Islam’s belief that a Jesus look alike was crucified instead of Jesus. With all due respect to all of the other posters, to whom I am very grateful to for having taken the time to respond to my original post, I must say that yours is the first to directly address what I was trying to say all along about the seeming contradiction between Muslim’s modern day proclamation that Jesus was “a great prophet” and their Quran’s passage about Jesus alluding any form of suffering and death while a look alike became the fall guy instead. What you point out about Allah using this deception to curse the Jews is an interesting development in this discussion, one that I was not aware of before, but it certainly seems to be in line with Islam’s not so subtle hatred for Judaism.

My whole point too was that if it was not in fact Jesus who was crucified (which I don’t believe for an instant) but was somebody else in his place, regardless of why this would happen, would render any such Islamic description of Jesus as a great prophet null and void because this describes not a great prophet but someone who is basically not willing to accept his own fate and would rather let someone else receive the death sentence meant for him. And to me, this is a huge insult to Christianity even beyond the fact that Islam is basically a Catholic Heresy that was never dealt with in the way that Aryanism and Gnosticism were, more or less. Because not only are they saying that we are wrong in our belief that Jesus is the son of God and in fact one in being with God, they are also saying that he was a cowardly prophet apparently more interested in self-preservation than he was in spreading God’s kingdom here on earth. Besides which the whole notion of Jesus being a great prophet, wise man, good moralist or whatever, but NOT the son of God is preposterous in my opinion. As I believe C.S. Lewis once put it, “You either must acknowledge that Jesus WAS the messiah, or else he was a madman.”

There is no middle ground on this issue, and as honorable and potentially ecumenical as Islam’s assertions about their respect for Jesus today may be, it falls short in my eyes and indeed contradicts that which they purport to be the final revelation of God ( the Quran). I also think that in addition to using this heretical and bogus account of Jesus NOT dying as a way for Allah to confound and curse the Jews, the early Muslims probably also used this passage/ story to help in their ongoing conversion of the Arabic Christians back in the early days of Islam. As part of their argumentation against Christianity as the truth, they would be able to point to this story and say, "See your supposed son of God was not only just a prophet, he didn’t even actually suffer and die for your or for ANYBODY.” This is why I can’t seem to reconcile this fact in my heart, even as I try my best to engage in ecumenical dialogue with Muslims. Thank you again for your response to my last question Angelos; you really helped to clear up a lot for me and confirm much of what I already thought. God love you.

 

[Lance]

Of course they have contempt for Jesus. Islam is a false religion based on a false prophet, end of story.

 

[exoflare]

It’s true. Muslims pay lip service to Jesus like they do a lot of other things in the company of non-muslims. It’s all a big act.

 

[Alexius]

Just FYI, the present day Islamic response to the question of why Christ evaded death on the cross and another died in his place, is that Christ would have been dishonored and disgraced by the evil intentions of the Romans and Jews. This is not a proper and fitting end for a prophet of Allah, as it would make the evil-doers appear victorious.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Thanks Alexius
I wonder what their take is then on all of the other prophets who came before Jesus and WERE killed by the authorities. Do they see these prophets as merely being opportunities for victories for the enemies of Allah? Weren’t THEY also prophets of Allah? Also, it makes sense that Islam would have this perspective on the death of Christ as they would see it as a failure on his part and not for the victory over sin and death that it truly is. As Saint Paul says, the cross for us is salvation while for others it is a stumbling block. Or perhaps more poignantly as Jesus himself said, “They see but they do not perceive, they hear but they do not understand.” Or again, when Pontius Pilot tells Jesus that he has the power to release him and save him from his looming passion and death, to which Jesus responds that, “NOBODY takes my life from me I lay it down of my own accord."

These are not the weak and submissive words of someone who is being subdued and subsequently killed and turned into another victory for the “infidels,” these are the strong words of the son of God. But I guess all in all it would make sense for Muslims to not be able to accept or admit that Jesus was in fact the one crucified and killed, because to them the whole mission of redemption, Jesus offering up his own life for the forgiveness or many, etc., just doesn’t mesh well with their whole notion of a vengeful and sometimes downright wrathful God that has changed his mind and decided to curse the Jewish people, and who does NOT forgive let alone love, the way that Christians believe.

In conclusion I think that it is important to of course respect and tolerate Islam and Islam’s followers, praying for their ultimate realization of the truth and subsequent conversion. However, the one thing that I seem to come into a better understanding of as I learn more and more about my own Christian faith, as well as the tenets of the Islamic religion, is not how alike we are in our beliefs about God, his plan for humanity, etc., but how extremely different. Thanks again for the reply Alexius, God love you.

 

[Alexius]

Thanks Alexius
I wonder what their take is then on all of the other prophets who came before Jesus and WERE killed by the authorities. Do they see these prophets as merely being opportunities for victories for the enemies of Allah? Weren’t THEY also prophets of Allah?

Jesus offering up his own life for the forgiveness or many, etc., just doesn’t mesh well with their whole notion of a vengeful and sometimes downright wrathful God that has changed his mind and decided to curse the Jewish people, and who does NOT forgive let alone love, the way that Christians believe.

Which prophets in particular do you speak of?

It is not so much that Christ’s redemption doesn’t mesh with a tyranical god, but rather that Islam does not teach that that was his role. He was the Messiah promised to the Jews, but he was not the final and universal prophet as Mohammad bin Abdullah was. He was not God incarnate who died for sins, but rather a great prophet who showed the way to perfection and purity of being. He came to bring Allah’s message to the Jews, but they rejected him and his message. The Jews persecuted their own promised Messiah !

Hope this helps:thumbsup: !

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Angelos]

Hi Grey Pilgrim

Sorry, yesterday I forgot to welcome you to the forum. You are a new member, so I am sending you my best wishes & regards.

You should read my other posts about Islam. It is almost my expertise to criticize the Quran and contrast it with the Bible. (I’m an ex-Muslim)

Peace & blessings to you. God love you too.

Angelos N.

 

[Angelos]

Which prophets in particular do you speak of?

It is not so much that Christ’s redemption doesn’t mesh with a tyranical god, but rather that Islam does not teach that that was his role. He was the Messiah promised to the Jews, but he was not the final and universal prophet as Mohammad bin Abdullah was. He was not God incarnate who died for sins, but rather a great prophet who showed the way to perfection and purity of being. He came to bring Allah’s message to the Jews, but they rejected him and his message. The Jews persecuted their own promised Messiah !

Hope this helps:thumbsup: !

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Hi Alexius

It is also noteworthy that the Quran does not denounce “Christians” for confirming the supposedly untrue Jewish bragging about the Messiah’s death. The writers of Mohammed’s Scripture somehow failed to remember that the Messiah’s passion & death were essential to the Christian creed. Since the only verse in the Quran denying the crucifixion is concerned with Jews & their punishment through a deceptive miracle, it is easy to infer that Mohammed considered the Messiah’s death a scandalous claim for the victorious Allah. In short, Mohammed would not have refuted the Passion if the Jews in his time had not made use of that historic event in the mockery of the “Islamic prophet Issa” introduced by the Quran.

I am in the midst of writing a long article about the Islamic denial of the Crucifixion. My study is gonna cover a wide range of ideas in addition to the resurrection of the gnostic/doceist heresy in Mohammed’s scripture.

Peace to you,
Angelos N B.

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Hey Angelos
Thanks for the warm welcome to the forums brother I appreciate the gesture! I myself am a novice Catholic theologian in training and so I am on these forums just trying to better understand some of the similarities between Christianity and other Abrahamic faiths such as Islam, while at the same time remembering that there are very stark differences such as the belief regarding Christ’s crucifixion. I think that it is important for us to remember also that many Muslims who have hardened their hearts to the truth about the Messianic and divine nature of Christ, His mission of redemption, etc., is often due to generation upon generation of indoctrination of the many false and heretical notions about Christianity that they have been taught. I pray for them always that through the grace of God, their hearts will be made open to the fullness of truth in the church that Christ himself founded. The very same church in fact that has survived 2,000 plus years of similar heresies, scandals, and even less than orthodox promoters of the faith who have advertently or inadvertently sought the destruction of the Christ’s bride groom here one earth. The gates of hell shall not prevail! Peace and all Good to you Angelos, I hope to be in correspondence with you again in the future, and I will definitely make sure to keep an eye out for your much needed comparisons and contrasts between the bible and the Quran, Christianity and Islam. And by the way, welcome home brother! Surely there must have been great rejoicing in heaven as God declared that another of his beloved sons had returned home to Him at last. Take care and God bless.

–Grey Pilgrim

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Which prophets in particular do you speak of?

It is not so much that Christ’s redemption doesn’t mesh with a tyranical god, but rather that Islam does not teach that that was his role. He was the Messiah promised to the Jews, but he was not the final and universal prophet as Mohammad bin Abdullah was. He was not God incarnate who died for sins, but rather a great prophet who showed the way to perfection and purity of being. He came to bring Allah’s message to the Jews, but they rejected him and his message. The Jews persecuted their own promised Messiah !

Hope this helps:thumbsup: !

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Hey Alexius, John the Baptist immediately comes to mind, who of course was “the voice crying out in the desert to make a way for the coming of the lord.” A cousin of Jesus, he was beheaded for his work to spread God’s message. Not a fitting end if he was also viewed by Islam as a prophet, though since he was prophesying of the coming of the Messiah, who indeed he pointed to Christ as being, perhaps Islam views him as a false prophet?

Jesus was the Passover lamb offered up for the sins of many, so it makes sense that the people he came to save were the very ones who crucified him. While tragic, it was essentially their offering up (without realizing it), the only pleasing and acceptable sacrifice in expiation for their many sins, namely God’s only begotten son, Jesus Christ. His death opened up the way for those who accepted Him for who He was and “took up their own cross and followed him” to become sons and daughters of God through baptism into Christ’s life, death, and resurrection. As far as Islam’s belief that Jesus pointed the way to perfection and spread Allah’s message, I find this somewhat perplexing as Jesus acknowledged several times that he WAS the messiah, referred to God as “Abba” or father (something completely against any Islamic notion of God from what I understand), and preached forgiveness of sins, praying for one’s enemies, etc., all practices that seem to contradict any of the “messages of Allah” that were received by Mohammed. It comes back to what I said to another poster about the fact that one can either accept that Christ WAS The Messiah, or else they must assert that he was a madman, there cannot be any middle ground. Especially with regards to how Islam views him since all of His earthly ministry was spent preaching things that would seem to be completely contradictory to the Islamic notion of who God is and what his plans are for us. Of course, with all of that being said I am pretty unlearned about Islam overall, which is why I am on these forums to see what people who DO know more about Islam have to say!

Thanks again Alexius, Peace and all Good to you.

 

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Also to Alexius, Angelos, or anybody else who can answer this, just as a little aside, what does Islam have to say about the poor fellow who they say was mistaken for Jesus and subsequently tortured and crucified? Was he just somebody who had the misfortune of royally ticking off God? Just wondering?