Veiled Islamic Contempt for Jesus?

[Grey_Pilgrim]

Sorry, but I somehow consider the comparison between Jonah & Jesus fallacious as well as impertinent.

Hey Angelos, I am not really sure why you quoted my last post to Valke2 to lead into this particular post of yours; you and I are on the same page. When I did compare Jonah and Jesus in a previous post, I wasn’t actually comparing them per say but simply pointing out that despite Jonah’s initial attempts to shirk his responsibility to God, he ultimately went on to save a bunch of people and later was referenced to by Christ himself when all of the people are asking Him for sign after sign and Jesus responds that, “a wicked and perverse generation asks for a sign but shall receive none, save for that of Jonah who after three days came out of the belly of the beast” alluding to his own three days that He would spend among the dead before being resurrected on the third day.

But yea, I am completely in agreement with you that neither Jonah nor any of the other prophets that Valke2 described have a story that comes even close in any way to the self-centered cowardice that would describe this false Jesus whom Islam declares a “great prophet” yet that would allow someone else to take the fall in his stead. Not to mention the fact that the majority of what Valke2 points to with many of these Old Testament prophets occurred BEFORE they received God’s calling. And as for the ones who sinned after their calling, well we are ALL sinners who fall short of the glory of God. As the scripture says even a righteous man falls seven times a day, for the rest of us it’s probably more like 7,000!  And I think that their humanity and ultimately their brokenness is the very thing which helps to bring home to divine power of God that much more strongly. His ability to work THROUGH our weakness in order to bring about greatness and strength carried out according to his will knows no limitations; the only limitations are the ones that we ourselves place on His universal call to holiness.

But again, none of these guys allowed someone else to suffer excruciating pain, torment and ultimately death in their stead, nor did they deliberately act contrary to God’s will in order to escape their own destiny, so these examples are irrelevant as they do not compare in any way. Thanks for you posts Angelos, all of the additional points that you have made about this very strange and increasingly ridiculous contradiction of Islam when it comes to their belief and subsequent proclamation about the life of Jesus have been enlightening and affirming in their scope and theological depth, something for which I am very grateful. God love you.

 

[inJESUS]

All boil down to apocrypha and Gnosticism, and Muhammad their hero.

 

[Alexius]

All boil down to apocrypha and Gnosticism, and Muhammad their hero.

Apocrypha? What are you talking about…

 

[Angelos]

Hey Angelos, I am not really sure why you quoted my last post to Valke2 to lead into this particular post of yours; you and I are on the same page. When I did compare Jonah and Jesus in a previous post, I wasn’t actually comparing them per say but simply pointing out that despite Jonah’s initial attempts to shirk his responsibility to God, he ultimately went on to save a bunch of people and later was referenced to by Christ himself when all of the people are asking Him for sign after sign and Jesus responds that, “a wicked and perverse generation asks for a sign but shall receive none, save for that of Jonah who after three days came out of the belly of the beast” alluding to his own three days that He would spend among the dead before being resurrected on the third day.

But yea, I am completely in agreement with you that neither Jonah nor any of the other prophets that Valke2 described have a story that comes even close in any way to the self-centered cowardice that would describe this false Jesus whom Islam declares a “great prophet” yet that would allow someone else to take the fall in his stead. Not to mention the fact that the majority of what Valke2 points to with many of these Old Testament prophets occurred BEFORE they received God’s calling. And as for the ones who sinned after their calling, well we are ALL sinners who fall short of the glory of God. As the scripture says even a righteous man falls seven times a day, for the rest of us it’s probably more like 7,000!  And I think that their humanity and ultimately their brokenness is the very thing which helps to bring home to divine power of God that much more strongly. His ability to work THROUGH our weakness in order to bring about greatness and strength carried out according to his will knows no limitations; the only limitations are the ones that we ourselves place on His universal call to holiness.

Hi Grey Pilgrim

I am happy to agree with you, and my reaction addressed Valke’s post that had contained an uncanny association between a prominent biblical figure & the spurious Jesus in that particular Hadith. I just wanted to add my comments to your post.

Peace, grace, and blessings to you

 

[Valke2]

I’ve never heard a muslim call Jesus a coward or despicable or interpet any hadith that way. This is the interpetation of the OP, not of any muslim that I’ve ever heard discuss this subject.

 

[inJESUS]

Apocrypha? What are you talking about…

oh La La Muhammad plagiarized many Apocryphal gospels like the Arabic gospel of Infancy ( about Jesus talking in the cradle )

**quran **: Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her: ‘Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot.’

        She made a sign to them, pointing to the child.  But they replied:  'How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?'

        Whereupon he spoke and said:  'I am the servant of God.  He has given me the Book and ordained me a prophet.  His blessing is upon me wherever I go, and He has exhorted me to be steadfast in prayer and to give alms as long as I shall live

**A.gospel of Infancy **
“We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world.”

Chapter 3 - The Imrans, verse 49:

quran…He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by God’s leave, it shall become a living bird…

        Here, from "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas" is the source for the Quranic quote.

"The child Jesus, when 5 years of age, was playing on the road by a dirty stream of running water; and having brought it all together into ditches, immediately made it pure and clean; by saying a single word. Then having moistened some earth, he made of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath day when he did these things. There were many other children playing with him. Now a Jew, seeing what Jesus did, that he was playing on the Sabbath day, went his way to (Jesus’) father Joseph. He said, “Behold, your son is at the stream of dirty water, and having taken up some mud, has made of it twelve sparrows, thus desecrating the Sabbath. On this Joseph went to the spot, and cried out, “Why did you do these things on the Sabbath day which it is not lawful to do?” Jesus then clapped his hands at the sparrows and cried aloud to them, “Go off!”. So they, clucking, flew away. The Jews seeing it were astonished, and went and told their rulers what they had seen Jesus do.”

**Quran Chaper 19 verses 22 - 26 and chapter 23 verse 50 **are taken from The Gospel of Pseudo Matthew

quran: Thereupon she conceived him, and retired to a far-off place. And when she felt the throes of childbirth she lay down by the trunk of a palm-tree, crying: ‘Oh, would that I had died and passed into oblivion!’

        But a voice from below cried out to her:  'Do not despair.  Your Lord has provided a brook that runs at your feet, and if you shake the trunk of this palm-tree it will drop fresh ripe dates in your lap.  Therefore eat and drink and rejoice; and should you meet any mortal say to him:  "I have vowed a fast to the Merciful and will not speak with any man today."'

**Pseudo-Matthew **Now on the third day of their journey, as they went on, it happened that blessed Mary was wearied by the too great heat of the sun in the desert, and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: “I should like to rest a little in the shade of this tree.” And Joseph led her quickly to the palm and let her dismount from her animal . And when blessed Mary had sat down she looked up at the top of the palm tree and saw that it was full of fruits, and said to Joseph: “I wish someone could fetch some of these fruits of the palm tree.” And Joseph said to her: “I wonder that you say this; for you see how high this palm tree is, and (I wonder ) that you even think about eating of the fruits of the palm. I think rather of the lack of water, which already fails us n the skins, and we have nothing with which we can re-fresh ourselves and the animals.”

        Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm:  "Bend down your branches, O Tree and refresh my mother with your fruit."  And immediately at this command the palm bent its head down to the feet of blessed Mary, and they gathered from it fruits with which they all refreshed themselves.....Then Jesus said to it:  "Raise yourself, O palm .....and let the waters flow so that we may quench our thirst from it."  And immediately it raised itself, and there began to gush out by its root a fountain of water very clear, fresh and completely bright.  [34]

cont…

 

[inJESUS]

Quran - Sura 3 - "The Imrans:, verses 37 - 37 are plagiarized from “The Protevangelium of James”.

quran: Remember the words of Imran’s wife. ‘Lord,’ she said, ‘I dedicate to Your service that which is in my womb. Accept if from me. You alone hear all and know all.’

        And when she was delivered of the child, she said: 'Lord, I have given birth to a daughter' - God well knew of what she was delivered:  the male is not like the female - 'and have called her Mary.  Protect her and all her descendants from Satan, the Accursed One.'

        Her Lord graciously accepted her.  He made her grow a goodly child and entrusted her to the care of Zacharias.

        Whenever Zacharias visited her in the Shrine he found that she had food with her.  'Mary,' he said, 'where is this food from?'

        'It is from God,' she answered.  'God gives without stint to whom He will.'

** Protevangelium of James** And behold an angel of the Lord came to her and said: “Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer. You shall conceive and bear, and your offspring shall be spoken of in the whole world.” And Anna said: “As the Lord my God lives, if I bear a child, whether male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall serve him all the days of its life.”…

…And her six months were fulfilled, as the angel had said: in the seventh month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: “What have I brought froth?” and the midwife said: “A female.” And Anna said: “My soul is magnified this day.” And she laid it down. And when the days were fulfilled, Anna purified herself from her childbed and gave suck to the child, and called her name Mary…

…When she (Mary) was two years old, Joachim said to Anna: “Let us bring her up to the Temple of the Lord that we may fulfill the promise which we made, lest the Lord send some evil upon us and our gift become unacceptable.” And Anna replied let us wait until the third year that the child may not long after her father and mother. And Joachim said: “Very well.”

And when the child was three years old, Joachim said: “Let us …in order that the child may not turn back and her heart be enticed away from the Temple of the Lord.” And he did so until they went up to the Temple of the Lord. And the priest, (Zacharias) took her and kissed her and blessed her, saying: "The Lord has magnified your name among all generations; because of you the Lord at the end of the days will manifest his redemption to the children of Israel.

…And Mary was in the Temple nurtured like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel.

Sura 3 - The Imrans, verse 44 plagiarized from the apocryphal gospel “The Nativity of Mary”

quran :This is an account of a divine secret. We reveal it to you. You were not present when they cast lots to see which of them should have charge of Mary; nor were you present when they argued about her.

**“Nativity of Mary”**Now there was among the rest Joseph, of the house and family of David, a man of great age: and when all brought their rods, according to the order, he alone withheld his. Wherefore, when nothing in conformity with the divine voice appeared, the high priest thought it necessary to consult God a second time; and He answered, that of those who had been designated, he alone to whom the virgin ought to be espoused had not brought his rod. Joseph, therefore, was found out. For when he had brought his rod, and the dove came from heaven; and settled upon the top of it, it clearly appeared to all that he was the man to whom the virgin should be espoused.

Quran 25:5

And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening.":yup: :yup:

Not to mention the Judeo-Christian legends!! this is the Glorious Quran

 

[inJESUS]

I’ve never heard a muslim call Jesus a coward or despicable or interpet any hadith that way. This is the interpetation of the OP, not of any muslim that I’ve ever heard discuss this subject.

that’s the problem. They can’t interpret it that waythough it’s the only logical interpretation.

 

[Valke2]

that’s the problem. They can’t interpret it that waythough it’s the only logical interpretation.

So the criticism implied in this thread is that Muslims have not portrayed Jesus as a coward but that if they were true to their beliefs, they would?

My highlighting the flaws of various prophets has been crticized here as not being remotely the same as the non-existant Islamic interpetation of Jesus as a coward or being despicable. But in our scripture the prophets did everything I said they did.

One strong reason that Islam says that Jesus wasn’t crucified, is that they don’t believe GOd would let that happen to his beloved prophet. But instead of even mentioning this, we are just assuming that the only possible logical interpetation of the portrayl of Jesus in teh Koran is that he was a coward??

 

[Angelos]

So the criticism implied in this thread is that Muslims have not portrayed Jesus as a coward but that if they were true to their beliefs, they would?

My highlighting the flaws of various prophets has been crticized here as not being remotely the same as the non-existant Islamic interpetation of Jesus as a coward or being despicable. But in our scripture the prophets did everything I said they did.

One strong reason that Islam says that Jesus wasn’t crucified, is that they don’t believe GOd would let that happen to his beloved prophet. But instead of even mentioning this, we are just assuming that the only possible logical interpetation of the portrayl of Jesus in teh Koran is that he was a coward??

Hi Valke

I agree with you that most Muslims do not portray the spurious Jesus in the Hadith as a coward. However, some Muslims even avoid referring to this Hadith mainly because they know perfectly well that it is a blasphemy to *imagine *Jesus bribing one of his beloved disciples to death in his stead so that he can escape passion & go directly to Allah! More, the Hadith under scrutiny claims an innocent person died to save another innocent, but this means that the same God working a miracle for the substitution failed to save his beloved prophet from the hands of the disbelievers without a disciple’s death!

The prophets in our Scripture did everything you said they did, but the main problem is that Islam always teaches that all prophets & messengers were holy and sinless! They regard Adam as the first messenger sent by God to our world! Still, your comparison was relegated to the type of messengers’ behavior in times of crisis. Further, the prophets in the Old Testament were rebuked by God for their weak points even though the false Jesus in that Hadith was praised for proposing such an immoral plan. We can infer that he was praised because his plan was accomplished only by the help of Allah, who worked a miracle for the substitution. (Keep in mind that the mistakes or negative attitudes of the prophets in the Old Testament were related to their prophetic ministry, not to the type of their death or escape.)

If you read the posts again, you’ll see that people here are not basing their critique solely on that Hadith, which is not supported by the Quran - the primary Islamic scripture. If I can find time, I’ll have a comprehensive study on the Islamic denial of the Crucifixion. The only thing I can say now is that Islam believes in a miraculous substitution, which Allah would definitely not have needed if He had wished to save His beloved prophet. Thus, the point we have been discussing here is “Why did Allah perform a deceptive miracle in order to save His prophet?” rather than “Why do Muslims deny Jesus’ passion & death?” .

Shalom,
Angelos N.

 

[Valke2]

Hi Valke

I agree with you that most Muslims do not portray the spurious Jesus in the Hadith as a coward. However, some Muslims even avoid referring to this Hadith mainly because they know perfectly well that it is a blasphemy to *imagine *Jesus bribing one of his beloved disciples to death in his stead so that he can escape passion & go directly to Allah! More, the Hadith under scrutiny claims an innocent person died to save another innocent, but this means that the same God working a miracle for the substitution failed to save his beloved prophet from the hands of the disbelievers without a disciple’s death!

The prophets in our Scripture did everything you said they did, but the main problem is that Islam always teaches that all prophets & messengers were holy and sinless! They regard Adam as the first messenger sent by God to our world! Still, your comparison was relegated to the type of messengers’ behavior in times of crisis. Further, the prophets in the Old Testament were rebuked by God for their weak points even though the false Jesus in that Hadith was praised for proposing such an immoral plan. We can infer that he was praised because his plan was accomplished only by the help of Allah, who worked a miracle for the substitution. (Keep in mind that the mistakes or negative attitudes of the prophets in the Old Testament were related to their prophetic ministry, not to the type of their death or escape.)

If you read the posts again, you’ll see that people here are not basing their critique solely on that Hadith, which is not supported by the Quran - the primary Islamic scripture. If I can find time, I’ll have a comprehensive study on the Islamic denial of the Crucifixion. The only thing I can say now is that Islam believes in a miraculous substitution, which Allah would definitely not have needed if He had wished to save His beloved prophet. Thus, the point we have been discussing here is “Why did Allah perform a deceptive miracle in order to save His prophet?” rather than “Why do Muslims deny Jesus’ passion & death?” .

Shalom,
Angelos N.

Good points.

 

[meedo]

Hello,

This thread is strange. People invent things about Islam that muslims didnt even dream of!

Let me understand … Muslims want to show Jesus as a man who escapes his plight by sacrificing an innocent man instead of him. And God is Injust to let this happen .

Well … there are some assumptions that are made here that muslims not necessarily subscribe to

1- That Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified. ( not just arrested or imprisoned or tortured)

2- That Jesus knew that God is going to make somebody else look like him in the eyes of others.

3- That Jesus knew that God chose a person who is totally innocent to replace him ( God could have replaced him with someone who deserves crucifixtion himself . )

4- That Jesus ( if he knew what was going to happen) have the force to say NO to God and tell him off and insist that he is the one to be crucified!

5- The assumption that God is injust because he wrote in his fate that somebody else will suffer instead of another person .

Guys, i thought you are much much better than that . All the assumptions above doesnt exist in Islam really . Not in the Quran and what i have read from Hadith.

Nothing in Islam tells us that jesus knew he would be crucified . Nor he knew tha if God saves him then there would be somebody else to look like him nor he knew of this other person deserved death already or not to argue against his exectution

Its silly to say that If God wanted somthing then jesus will tell him NO and that he will do as he please because God is not a good boy and sends the wrong people to their death!

Finally (which is very sad to see) many on this thread have bound God to their reasoning. The whole world is upside down because God sends the wrong man to death!!

Well … the executioner and the victim both belong to Gods domain . So as the girl whom God allow to be killed , so as the victims of the Tsunami , so as the Holoucaust Victims, so as the the people who die in famin and hunger , so as a wandering boy in africa who was eaten by a Lion . Cruelty and injustice is part of life. God allows them to happen either to punish people or test them . For whomever have had patience and accepted Gods decree will inhert Gods acceptance and whomever refuses to accept God fate to happen will only see it happen and gain Gods anger. Our duty is to do the right thing to the best we can , If there is an act of God still wished to enforce then we submit to his will knowing that whatever was in our fate was best for us .

Nothing much to say on the subject really.

salam

 

[Angelos]

Hello,

This thread is strange. People invent things about Islam that muslims didnt even dream of!

Guys, i thought you are much much better than that . All the assumptions above doesnt exist in Islam really . Not in the Quran and what i have read from Hadith.

Nothing in Islam tells us that jesus knew he would be crucified . Nor he knew tha if God saves him then there would be somebody else to look like him nor he knew of this other person deserved death already or not to argue against his exectution.

Which Islamic interpretation of the passion are you talking about? The one based on the Quran or on the Hadith collection? Rather than blaming some people for inventing strange threads and misinterpreting some stories, you could have simply stated that the Hadith most people here referred to did not exist. Can you say the particular Hadith Grey Pilgrim has been analyzing is a Christian invention?

Nevertheless, I agree with you that the Quran is almost clueless about the incident of crucifixion. I personally believe that it is actually the incomplete & inaccurate information given in the Quran that incurs most Muslims to comment on this issue so that we can subsequently have more differing views.

Would it really matter if Jesus knew someone else was going to be crucified in His stead? Even if we presume that Jesus did not know anything about His death, this will not debunk our critique of the Islamic denial of the crucifixion.

What did Jesus know about His death according to your Scripture? Please share with us whatever you know about it to make this thread less strange & more reasonable.

Nothing much to say on the subject really.
salam

Thanks for keeping your post so short!

Peace, Theos mazi sou
ANgelos N.

 

[inJESUS]

One has to check their explanations (tafasir). Someone else whether deserved to die or not died but they don’t know who. A thousand name is given. Some even mention how Jesus asked others to take his place ! Basilides oh Basilides, Muhammad’s inspiration.