Veneration vs. Adoration

[CutlerB]

Hello there once again,

I’ve never quite understood the practical difference between Veneration (Mary, saints) and Adoration (God). What specific act is reserved only for God in the life of the Church, that would make it distinct from veneration? How is it manifested in the Mass for example?

Thanks!

 

[snarflemike]

Hello there once again,

I’ve never quite understood the practical difference between Veneration (Mary, saints) and Adoration (God). What specific act is reserved only for God in the life of the Church, that would make it distinct from veneration? How is it manifested in the Mass for example?

Thanks!

Surely you honor St. Paul, for example, right? But do you think of him in the same way you think of God?

Veneration means honoring and respecting those who have done the will of God and now abide in him.

In the Mass, we kneel in the presence of God (the Eucharist) but we never kneel at the mention or thought of those we venerate. Many people actually prostrate themselves before the Eucharist in Eucharistic Adoration.

 

[CutlerB]

Surely you honor St. Paul, for example, right? But do you think of him in the same way you think of God?

Veneration means honoring and respecting those who have done the will of God and now abide in him.

In the Mass, we kneel in the presence of God (the Eucharist) but we never kneel at the mention or thought of those we venerate. Many people actually prostrate themselves before the Eucharist in Eucharistic Adoration.

Of course I honour St Paul and all the others. I know the definition of veneration. But for example, people often kneel in front of statues, don’t they? I was looking for something specifically for God. Like forms of prayer, worship, etc.

 

[snarflemike]

Of course I honour St Paul and all the others. I know the definition of veneration. But for example, people often kneel in front of statues, don’t they? I was looking for something specifically for God. Like forms of prayer, worship, etc.

Yes they kneel in prayer outside of Mass, but only in the presence of God at Mass.

If you’re looking for some ACT that Catholics only do in worship, I can’t think of any offhand.

 

[CutlerB]

Yes they kneel in prayer outside of Mass, but only in the presence of God at Mass.

If you’re looking for some ACT that Catholics only do in worship, I can’t think of any offhand.

Well, maybe the act of kneeling in Mass is “enough” difference after all, since the Mass is worship of God and to His Glory. Would it also be about the attitude one expresses in one’s soul whilst performing an act of veneration/adoration that makes the difference?

 

[snarflemike]

Well, maybe the act of kneeling in Mass is “enough” difference after all, since the Mass is worship of God and to His Glory. Would it also be about the attitude one expresses in one’s soul whilst performing an act of veneration/adoration that makes the difference?

Yes, that is the crucial difference. We know Mary and the saints are not God, are not to be adored, are not to be given latria. Just like you can say you love God and say you love your children, but you do not imagine your children to be God.

BTW, as I like to point out, what fools would we Catholics be if we actually did believe Mary or the saints were worthy of adoration, and yet we loudly denied that to all listeners? Seems like a straight ticket to hell if that’s what we believed.

 

[snarflemike]

Well, maybe the act of kneeling in Mass is “enough” difference after all, since the Mass is worship of God and to His Glory. Would it also be about the attitude one expresses in one’s soul whilst performing an act of veneration/adoration that makes the difference?

Yes, we Catholics understand well the difference between the adoration due to God alone, and the veneration we give to God’s obedient creatures. Just as you can say you love God and you love your children, without ever confusing your children with God.

BTW, as I like to point out, if we Catholics really did believe Mary and the saints were worthy of adoration, and yet we kept denying that long and loud to anybody who would listen, that would seem to be a quick ticket to hell. Who truly believes one thing, and hotly denies it and calls it a sin at the same time?

 

[cjmclark]

Well, maybe the act of kneeling in Mass is “enough” difference after all, since the Mass is worship of God and to His Glory. Would it also be about the attitude one expresses in one’s soul whilst performing an act of veneration/adoration that makes the difference?

You can also look at this from a prayer standpoint. When it comes to Mary and the saints, the most common form of prayer is intercessory prayer - that is, asking them to pray for us because we acknowledge and respect their holiness and proximity to God. Thanks, on the other hand, is generally reserved for God (though I suppose it’s not outside the realm of possibility to pray a prayer of thanksgiving to a saint for a favorable outcome after an intercessory request), and giving glory (e.g. the Glory Be) is reserved exclusively for God. Mary is a special case in that we give her a higher level of veneration than the other saints due to her exalted status as the Mother of God (hence the Hail Mary, Hail Holy Queen, et c.), but not the Adoration reserved for God alone.

Does that make sense?

 

[TomD123]

Well, maybe the act of kneeling in Mass is “enough” difference after all, since the Mass is worship of God and to His Glory. Would it also be about the attitude one expresses in one’s soul whilst performing an act of veneration/adoration that makes the difference?

I think you have the basic right idea. There are a number of ways (like Eucharistic Adoration for example) in which we express adoration over veneration. There are two thoughts I wanted to add that might be helpful:

1. As for the attitude- we honor God and give Him everything because of His own sake, He is infinitely Good on His Own…as for the Saints, they are only good with reference to God and were made good by God and we honor them not as our last end worthy of infinite love because of their essence but because of their connection to our last end Who is worthy of infinite love because of His essence (i hope this makes sense)
2. Mass itself is an act of Adoration. The most important part of adoration is the sacrifice to honor God as creator of all. Mass is a sacrifice and therefore it is an act of adoration itself. Actually, it is THE act of adoration and the most important act that separates the worship of God from the honor due to the Saints.

Hope this is helpful!
Tom D

 

[thistle]

Hello there once again,

I’ve never quite understood the practical difference between Veneration (Mary, saints) and Adoration (God). What specific act is reserved only for God in the life of the Church, that would make it distinct from veneration? How is it manifested in the Mass for example?

Thanks!

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

ADORATION. The act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice. (Etym. Latin ad-, to + orare, to pray; or os, oris, mouth, from the pagan custom of expressing preference for a god by wafting a kiss to the statue: adoratio, worship, veneration.)

VENERATION OF SAINTS. Honor paid to the saints who, by their intercession and example and in their possession of God, minister to human sanctification, helping the faithful grow in Christian virtue. Venerating the saints does not detract from the glory given to God, since whatever good they possess is a gift from his bounty. They reflect the divine perfections, and their supernatural qualities result from the graces Christ merited for them by the Cross. In the language of the Church’s liturgy, the saints are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, as adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of his Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Spirit.

 

[po18guy]

Hello there once again,

I’ve never quite understood the practical difference between Veneration (Mary, saints) and Adoration (God). What specific act is reserved only for God in the life of the Church, that would make it distinct from veneration? How is it manifested in the Mass for example?

Thanks!

Surely there is a Catholic parish near you. Make enquiry as to when they offer adoration of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I most strongly urge you to consider going and spending time before our Lord (if you have not already). All Christians, whether considering Catholicism or not, can benefit tremendously from spending time in Christ’s presence.

With the following, I mean offence to no one, but please bear with me: Here is something that occurred to me that may be baseless, but it nevertheless occurred: In those communities that do not consider Christ as being truly present in the consecrated host, and which do not offer adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the members have never been in the physical presence of Christ. His presence has always been spiritual, or manifested (once removed?) through their brothers or sisters. They have never sensed Christ’s physical proximity, if you follow my thinking. Can it just be that this has limited, in some way, their perception of Christ, or the depth of their worship, so that, experientially, it is slightly closer to veneration (or veneration closer to adoration)?

Adoration of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament takes one so much deeper into their spiritual life that the difference between veneration and adoration is more readily apparent to a Catholic or Orthodox. Indeed, the concept of veneration is foreign to most denominations.

 

[xzereus]

To be clear, I don’t think we should be to specific on the wording. There are plenty of prayers which say that we adore the saints/Mary. I think clarifying the difference based on words alone is dangerous, as it creates a false basis of belief. The real difference isn’t in whether you said “adore” or “venerate”, as Catholic usage of words tend to be incredibly obscure and often differ greatly from traditional definitions of words. It’s really all about the heart of things.

I could say the following prayer to Mary in two ways, one right and one wrong:

“Mary, help me! Grant me the grace to avoid sin and being to appreciate and adore you as I should.”

Of course, I could intend this prayer to be answered directly by Mary. Perhaps I truly believe Mary is a goddess and that she can grant graces and assist me and is worthy of adoration because of her deity. On the other hand, I could be respecting Mary’s position as it is granted by God. Perhaps I adore her for her steadfast adherence to God’s will, and I know that God has allowed her to dispense to me graces from Him so that she can help me. There is a large gray area here, and what really matters is your heart.

CLARIFICATION: There are certain words/actions which shouldn’t be used regardless of your heart’s intent. In my book, the word “worship” is included here, and I’m sure there are plenty others.

 

[Nita]

Hello there once again,

I’ve never quite understood the practical difference between Veneration (Mary, saints) and Adoration (God). What specific act is reserved only for God in the life of the Church, that would make it distinct from veneration? How is it manifested in the Mass for example?

Thanks!

To put it in very simple terms, we pray/worship God as God, and because He IS God. As to specific act/s that are reserved only for God, 3 quickly come to mind.

1. The offering of sacrifice in atonement/reparation for our sins. The primary way in which an act of this sort takes place is in the Mass, where Jesus sacrificial act (“This is My Body which is given…; This is My blood which is poured out…”; Do this…) is made present and offered to God.
2. Baptism. In Baptism it is only God whom we ask to “regenerate” us (translate us from the state of original sin into the state of grace).
3. Seeking forgiveness for sins is something we go to God alone to receive.
   This does not exclude requests for forgiveness made to a particular person (living or dead) whom we may have offended. But for the guilt of sin, we go to God alone; only He can forgive sins. (In the Sacrament of Confession we know that it is God who forgives through the priest.)

In any of the 3 above examples we would never even think of going to Mary or another saint rather than to God – they are “areas”, so to speak, that are reserved to God alone.

We pray/venerate the saints as humans; and angels as angels. Idolatry is not an issue since we in no way consider them (humans or angels) to be God.

 

[CutlerB]

Surely there is a Catholic parish near you. Make enquiry as to when they offer adoration of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I most strongly urge you to consider going and spending time before our Lord (if you have not already). All Christians, whether considering Catholicism or not, can benefit tremendously from spending time in Christ’s presence.

Well, as I live in northern Germany, I am in the diaspora. There are two parishes near me, one rather modern which I have been to, but which is not really the sort of church that appeals to me, and one I haven’t visited as they always seem to close before I arrive, but which certainly appeals. I’ll have to give it a try. However, I don’t know whether they offer Eucharistic Adoration.

 

[CutlerB]

Surely there is a Catholic parish near you. Make enquiry as to when they offer adoration of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I most strongly urge you to consider going and spending time before our Lord (if you have not already). All Christians, whether considering Catholicism or not, can benefit tremendously from spending time in Christ’s presence.

Well, in northern Germany I am in somewhat of a diaspora. There are two parishes, one rather modern (which I am not too much a friend of) and one that looks more traditional, but mysteriously closes just before I arrive to take a look. I do not know whether they offer Eucharistic Adoration, though.

 

[Trebor135]

One passage from the Old Testament which springs to mind is from 1 Chronicles chapter 29:

[10] Therefore David blessed the LORD in the presence of all the assembly; and David said: "Blessed art thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
[11] Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
[12] Both riches and honor come from thee, and thou rulest over all. In thy hand are power and might; and in thy hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.
[13] And now we thank thee, our God, and praise thy glorious name.
[14] “But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able thus to offer willingly? For all things come from thee, and of thy own have we given thee.
[15] For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as all our fathers were; our days on the earth are like a shadow, and there is no abiding.
[16] O LORD our God, all this abundance that we have provided for building thee a house for thy holy name comes from thy hand and is all thy own.
[17] I know, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness; in the uprightness of my heart I have freely offered all these things, and now I have seen thy people, who are present here, offering freely and joyously to thee.
[18] O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, our fathers, keep for ever such purposes and thoughts in the hearts of thy people, and direct their hearts toward thee.
[19] Grant to Solomon my son that with a whole heart he may keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, performing all, and that he may build the palace for which I have made provision.”
[20] Then David said to all the assembly, “Bless the LORD your God.” And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to the king.
[21] And they performed sacrifices to the LORD, and on the next day offered burnt offerings to the LORD, a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel;
[22a] and they ate and drank before the LORD on that day with great gladness.

The Israelites were entirely capable of worshipping God and venerating the king without confusing the status of the two; neither Yahweh nor David brought down the hammer against such conduct. Catholics/Orthodox are acting biblically when they give different degrees of honour to Christ on the one hand and St. Mary and her fellow saints on the other.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

To put it in very simple terms, we pray/worship God as God, and because He IS God. As to specific act/s that are reserved only for God, 3 quickly come to mind.

1. The offering of sacrifice in atonement/reparation for our sins. The primary way in which an act of this sort takes place is in the Mass, where Jesus sacrificial act (“This is My Body which is given…; This is My blood which is poured out…”; Do this…) is made present and offered to God.
2. Baptism. In Baptism it is only God whom we ask to “regenerate” us (translate us from the state of original sin into the state of grace).
3. Seeking forgiveness for sins is something we go to God alone to receive.
   This does not exclude requests for forgiveness made to a particular person (living or dead) whom we may have offended. But for the guilt of sin, we go to God alone; only He can forgive sins. (In the Sacrament of Confession we know that it is God who forgives through the priest.)

In any of the 3 above examples we would never even think of going to Mary or another saint rather than to God – they are “areas”, so to speak, that are reserved to God alone.

We pray/venerate the saints as humans; and angels as angels. Idolatry is not an issue since we in no way consider them (humans or angels) to be God.

I agree totally with the above but I would like to slightly complicate (I call it deepen) the reality by injecting the longheld theology of our Orthodox brothers and sisters. Namely the theology of human divinisation whereby God’s saints are to be regarded almost literally as gods by reason of their (in varying degrees) “shared nature” with the Divine.

The border between the divine and human is blurred in the afterlife for those who love Him. (A bit like dove-tailed joins in draws of old-fashioned, high quality cabinets. It is hard to know where the Human ends and the Divine begins). It is not simply a matter of the saints being morally united with God by their wills and history and exemplorary nature that we venerate them. We in a sense adore God in and through them also.

Mary of course, by reason of her deeply transparent human nature (by reason of her immaculate conception) and her total fiat to the great Divine outpouring to her alone, after Christ is the most Divinised. While we could not say that “to see her is to see the Father” it comes jolly close (by “adoption” rather than by bloodright) by this theology as I understand it.

A lot of people (perhaps rightly) cringe when they start hearing of popularist Marian titles such as “Co-Redemptrix” as it seems to encroach upon God only (perhaps I should say Christ only) territory. Yet…at one time such was the feeling towards the Assumption which is now defined dogma. It may be repeated again in the life-time of the present Pope if the Chinese whispers prove true :bigyikes:.

 

[Trebor135]

I agree totally with the above but I would like to slightly complicate (I call it deepen) the reality by injecting the longheld theology of our Orthodox brothers and sisters. Namely the theology of human divinisation whereby God’s saints are to be regarded almost literally as gods by reason of their (in varying degrees) “shared nature” with the Divine.

The border between the divine and human is blurred in the afterlife for those who love Him. (A bit like dove-tailed joins in draws of old-fashioned, high quality cabinets. It is hard to know where the Human ends and the Divine begins). It is not simply a matter of the saints being morally united with God by their wills and history and exemplorary nature that we venerate them. We in a sense adore God in and through them also.

Mary of course, by reason of her deeply transparent human nature (by reason of her immaculate conception) and her total fiat to the great Divine outpouring to her alone, after Christ is the most Divinised. While we could not say that “to see her is to see the Father” it comes jolly close (by “adoption” rather than by bloodright) by this theology as I understand it.

Interesting. We could say that Eastern Orthodox theology allows for other humans, not just religious paintings, to be used as icons.

A lot of people (perhaps rightly) cringe when they start hearing of popularist Marian titles such as “Co-Redemptrix” as it seems to encroach upon God only (perhaps I should say Christ only) territory. Yet…at one time such was the feeling towards the Assumption which is now defined dogma. It may be repeated again in the life-time of the present Pope if the Chinese whispers prove true :bigyikes:.

One hopes not. It would cause an unfathomable amount of scandal among those Protestants who already fear that Catholics worship St. Mary and the other saints, inspiring redoubled efforts on the part of Evangelicals to proselytize “pagans of the Roman communion” in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. And a papal definition of St. Mary as co-mediatrix/co-redemptrix, I have read Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware state, would immediately and indefinitely bring all dialogue between the two Churches to a screeching halt.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Interesting. We could say that Eastern Orthodox theology allows for other humans, not just religious paintings, to be used as icons. .

Trebor
Would you mind teasing this one out a bit - I think you are saying something quite perspicacious but I do not know enough about Eastern Orthodox iconographic culture and sentiments to get it? Thanks.

And a papal definition of St. Mary as co-mediatrix/co-redemptrix, I have read Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware state, would immediately and indefinitely bring all dialogue between the two Churches to a screeching halt.

That is very interesting. What reasons did he give for his position?

 

[Trebor135]

Trebor
Would you mind teasing this one out a bit - I think you are saying something quite perspicacious but I do not know enough about Eastern Orthodox iconographic culture and sentiments to get it? Thanks.

Haha, thanks. I took your ideas in another direction, inspired by your comment, “We [according to the view I’m explaining] in a sense adore God in and through them”. No good Eastern Orthodox would say that they almost “divinize” icons, but they use these paintings to reach God, in a sense–just as, like you said, we can use saints to become closer to him.

That is very interesting. What reasons did he give for his position?

I’ve done a bit of searching and can’t find the source for the paraphrase of Archbishop Kallistos Ware that I made above. Unless another poster has some additional information, I will have to refrain from commenting further on what he said.