Vent about NFP threads

[Walking_Home]

I have to get this off my chest. It seems like whenever someone posts about how they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy, a bunch of people pile on about how their reasons for avoiding aren’t good enough. I see it on this forum and all over the Catholic blogosphere.

Enough!! “Serious reasons” are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.” If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

Mark Shea had a great article on this awhile back. His theory is that people who tell other people their reasons aren’t good enough are too cowardly to attack people who are actually disobeying Church teaching by using contraception, so they attack people who are obeying Church teaching by using NFP and telling them that their reasons aren’t good enough. Here’s the article:

ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/on-coping-with-nfp-zealotry

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Ditto --. Non of us – are in a position to point the finger/and or imply – that a couples uses NFP with a “contraceptive mentality”/“selfish reasons”.

 

[thewanderer]

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Ditto --. Non of us – are in a position to point the finger/and or imply – that a couples uses NFP with a “contraceptive mentality”/“selfish reasons”.

Just one question, would you be ok with someone saying that to them the reasons seem as though they could be selfish and so suggest that the people involved pray about it to make sure that they are not?

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Ditto --. Non of us – are in a position to point the finger/and or imply – that a couples uses NFP with a “contraceptive mentality”/“selfish reasons”.

Just one question, would you be ok with someone saying that to them the reasons seem as though they could be selfish and so suggest that the people involved pray about it to make sure that they are not?

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That is not a call for anyone of us to make. The Church leaves it to the couple – and to the couple alone.

 

[thewanderer]

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That is not a call for anyone of us to make. The Church leaves it to the couple – and to the couple alone.

Well, I get that, but that is why it is important to make sure you only leave it as a suggestion for the person to think about. But don’t you appreciate it when your friends call you out on something, or even just say, hey, from my perspective, this looks like a problem, you should think about it. Even if its unpleasant to hear it, it is a sign of them caring about you, and, sometimes, its what you really need to hear. Yes, it is up to the particular couple in question to make that call, and should be left up to the couple to make that call, but I don’t see a problem with suggesting that they spend some time praying about it to further discern the question. Especially if they are careful to be polite and considerate about the way they word it. That is still leaving the question up to the couple.

 

[JackieMom]

Well, I get that, but that is why it is important to make sure you only leave it as a suggestion for the person to think about. But don’t you appreciate it when your friends call you out on something, or even just say, hey, from my perspective, this looks like a problem, you should think about it. Even if its unpleasant to hear it, it is a sign of them caring about you, and, sometimes, its what you really need to hear. Yes, it is up to the particular couple in question to make that call, and should be left up to the couple to make that call, but I don’t see a problem with suggesting that they spend some time praying about it to further discern the question. Especially if they are careful to be polite and considerate about the way they word it. That is still leaving the question up to the couple.

I think that’s a little condescending, to be honest… Since the couple, by even considering NFP, has already shown that they take their faith seriously. It is such a tiny minority of Catholics that are adherent to this aspect of the catechism, I would give any couple discerning NFP the absolute benefit of the doubt that they have already spent time in prayer about it.

I think sometimes on CAF we get into an NFP bubble. We should be shouting with joy from the rooftops when any couple chooses NFP over contraception. The people who do are SO few and far between. I do not know anyone IRL who uses NFP and there are NO instructors currently teaching classes in my entire (heavily populated) county. We should not insult them by second-guessing their motivation.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, I get that, but that is why it is important to make sure you only leave it as a suggestion for the person to think about. But don’t you appreciate it when your friends call you out on something, or even just say, hey, from my perspective, this looks like a problem, you should think about it. Even if its unpleasant to hear it, it is a sign of them caring about you, and, sometimes, its what you really need to hear.** Yes, it is up to the particular couple in question to make that call, and should be left up to the couple to make that call, but I don’t see a problem with suggesting that they spend some time praying about it to further discern the question. **Especially if they are careful to be polite and considerate about the way they word it. That is still leaving the question up to the couple.

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Well- if someone starts “suggesting” – they are Not leaving it up to the couple – but are stirring the pot and interfering with the couple.

 

[sdeco]

Impossible? So “we’re using NFP because we hate babies and we’d rather spend our money backpacking through Europe next year” isn’t evidence of a contraceptive mentality?

Ahhh, the old strawcouple who uses NFP because they want to “backpack through Europe” and they “hate babies.” Here’s the thing: these people DON”T EXIST. If they are the type who would avoid pregnancy because they want to travel and no other reason, they are the type who would just use contraception.

You don’t seem to understand that NFP involves a tremendous amount of sacrifice. It’s annoying to always have to observe fertility signs and chart. It’s a sacrifice to abstain. No one is able to keep it up for long if they don’t have a serious reason. If they are selfish enough to want to avoid children for years and years so they can travel, they will almost certainly be too selfish to abstain.

Here’s an analogy that Mark Shea gave in his article. When someone goes to confession, it’s not enough that they just confess their sins. They need to be truly sorry and intend to do better next time. I suppose it’s theoretically possible for someone to go to confession without being sorry and with absolutely no intention of trying not to commit that sin again. Yet such a person would probably not even bother with confession. They are the equivalent of the hypothetical couple who uses NFP for a “trivial” reason. Do you wonder if everyone in the confession line is truly sorry for their sins and really intends to try not to commit the sin again? Probably not. If they are in the confession line in the first place, it’s a near certainty that they are truly sorry and will try to do better. Yet strangely, we are constantly questioning the motives of couples who use NFP in a way we don’t question the motives of people who go to confession.

I happen to strongly agree with this statement. There IS a “contraceptive mentality” attached to NFP and this is self proclaimed by several posts I’ve read in the past months from women who got pregnant using NFP and are sorry or regretful about this pregnancy, don’t welcome this child, etc. I think this poster’s point is spot on: “under the guidance of a priest” is the only way to use NFP. “Fertile” period simply means ovulation and does not particularly influence desire (I’ve been a woman a long time lol). AND fertility can, and does, occur EVEN while a woman is menstruating. There are no guarantees of avoiding pregnancy except one: chastity within the marriage. My two cents. I wish I had ten children, I really wanted a large family and I lost my only child.

Just because someone is upset about a pregnancy doesn’t mean they have a “contraceptive mentality” (whatever that means.) Maybe they’re upset because they had a serious reason to avoid pregnancy and they are justifiably worried. And again, you DO NOT need the guidance of a priest to use NFP. That is nowhere in Catholic teaching. The couple themselves are the best judge of their circumstances.

I am very sorry you lost your only child, but with respect, may I suggest that you really have no idea what it’s like to raise a large family and all the stresses that go with it? Very few people have the physical, financial, and emotional resources to handle ten children.

One thing we can be certain of, though, is that people use NFP solely for the purpose of not having children, and don’t even know they are supposed to have serious reasons for doing so. They just think of it as Catholic Birth Control.

Where did I get this information from…right here on this very forum. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people talk about NFP for birth control purposes, and when someone notes they need a serious reason for doing so, they say “huh?”.

If a couple intends to never have children, their marriage would not even be valid according to the Catholic Church. I find it VERY hard to believe that a couple would know about NFP and intend to use it, yet not know that they need to intend to have children in order for their marriage to be valid.

Can you give me ONE example of someone on this forum who didn’t know they need a “serious reason” to use NFP?? I have NEVER seen that. I see a lot of posts from people who want clarification about what “serious reasons” are. I see a lot of posts from people who list their serious reasons and then get attacked because their reasons aren’t serious enough according to strangers on the internet.

I am going to conclude with this great comment from Mark Shea’s article. Constantly questioning the motives of NFP users can lead them to scrupulosity:

It’s like these people have never heard of scrupulosity, its spiritual dangers, and the risk of tempting other people to fall into it by heaping invisible restrictions on them based on vague internal settings like “intent” and “generosity” and “holiness.”

The problem is that there isn’t a single person out there about which it could not be said, “She could be more generous.” If you start telling people that their ACTIONS “might as well be” sinful because their HEART isn’t in the right place, you might as well turn that right around and point it at yourself because the last time I checked, only two other people in history had their Hearts in the right places…

Scrupulosity is real. It is dangerous. And it’s very possible to inculcate it in other people. Watch it and don’t be the cause of someone else’s temptation.

 

[sdeco]

Here’s another thing to think about: if it were possible to use NFP “selfishly,” the Church would say that couples MUST have sex when they are fertile if they don’t have a “serious reason” to avoid pregnancy. And the Church never dictates when couples must have sex. Therefore, it’s not possible to use NFP “selfishly.”

And here’s another thing: why is it that so many people question the motives of couples using NFP, but don’t question the motives of couples who don’t use NFP and just accept babies whenever they come? After all, people can be providentialists for less-than-noble reasons too. Maybe some of these couples are actually being selfish because they are not giving the kids they have enough attention but they are too selfish to abstain.

 

[thewanderer]

I think that’s a little condescending, to be honest… Since the couple, by even considering NFP, has already shown that they take their faith seriously. It is such a tiny minority of Catholics that are adherent to this aspect of the catechism, I would give any couple discerning NFP the absolute benefit of the doubt that they have already spent time in prayer about it.

I think sometimes on CAF we get into an NFP bubble. We should be shouting with joy from the rooftops when any couple chooses NFP over contraception. The people who do are SO few and far between. I do not know anyone IRL who uses NFP and there are NO instructors currently teaching classes in my entire (heavily populated) county. We should not insult them by second-guessing their motivation.

I honestly don’t see how its being condescending though. I know that it is something I would appreciate, even if its hard to hear and even if I know I’m right. So I guess that’s why I have a hard time seeing why it would be wrong or bad in any way.

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Well- if someone starts “suggesting” – they are Not leaving it up to the couple – but are stirring the pot and interfering with the couple.

You are saying it is something you are concerned about, and then suggesting that they pray about it. You are still ultimately leaving it up to them to decide whether or not it is selfish. Honestly, if put politely and delicately that is something I would really appreciate, even though it would be hard to hear.

For example, before I was engaged I talked to a cousin of mine about how we were thinking seriously about getting married and she started asking me all sorts of stuff about my man, like are you sure this will work because of this etc, but not in a condescending way, just in a “to me this seems like it could be a problem, you should really think about it and I am only bringing it up because I care about you” kind of way. And I admit, it was really hard to hear her say things like that, but I also really really appreciated that she was enough of a friend to me to be able to ask those difficult questions to make sure that I really think about what I am doing so that I don’t make a mistake. A lot of people would just go with the flow and fail to show that true kind of love and concern by taking that extra step to make sure they are actually thinking it through and properly discerning. I really appreciate it when people take the time and effort to go that extra mile (though of coursse they have to do so politely and delicately). Not making any decisions for the person, but just getting them to truly think about what they are doing. Its important.

 

[Walking_Home]

I honestly don’t see how its being condescending though. I know that it is something I would appreciate, even if its hard to hear and even if I know I’m right. So I guess that’s why I have a hard time seeing why it would be wrong or bad in any way.

**You are saying it is something you are concerned about, and then suggesting that they pray about it. You are still ultimately leaving it up to them to decide whether or not it is selfish. Honestly, if put politely and delicately that is something I would really appreciate, even though it would be hard to hear. **

For example, before I was engaged I talked to a cousin of mine about how we were thinking seriously about getting married and she started asking me all sorts of stuff about my man, like are you sure this will work because of this etc, but not in a condescending way, just in a “to me this seems like it could be a problem, you should really think about it and I am only bringing it up because I care about you” kind of way. And I admit, it was really hard to hear her say things like that, but I also really really appreciated that she was enough of a friend to me to be able to ask those difficult questions to make sure that I really think about what I am doing so that I don’t make a mistake. A lot of people would just go with the flow and fail to show that true kind of love and concern by taking that extra step to make sure they are actually thinking it through and properly discerning. I really appreciate it when people take the time and effort to go that extra mile (though of coursse they have to do so politely and delicately). Not making any decisions for the person, but just getting them to truly think about what they are doing. Its important.

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Again-- any “suggesting” is meddling – no ifs and or buts.

 

[Walking_Home]

Here’s another thing to think about: if it were possible to use NFP “selfishly,” the Church would say that couples MUST have sex when they are fertile if they don’t have a “serious reason” to avoid pregnancy. And the Church never dictates when couples must have sex. Therefore, it’s not possible to use NFP “selfishly.”

And here’s another thing: why is it that so many people question the motives of couples using NFP, but don’t question the motives of couples who don’t use NFP and just accept babies whenever they come? After all, people can be providentialists for less-than-noble reasons too. Maybe some of these couples are actually being selfish because they are not giving the kids they have enough attention but they are too selfish to abstain.

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Just to add – the use of NFP – would also help prevent – a husband and wife – from turning/using/vewing the other as an object for their own selfish sexual gratification.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Well, I get that, but that is why it is important to make sure you only leave it as a suggestion for the person to think about. But don’t you appreciate it when your friends call you out on something, or even just say, hey, from my perspective, this looks like a problem, you should think about it. Even if its unpleasant to hear it, it is a sign of them caring about you, and, sometimes, its what you really need to hear. Yes, it is up to the particular couple in question to make that call, and should be left up to the couple to make that call, but I don’t see a problem with suggesting that they spend some time praying about it to further discern the question. Especially if they are careful to be polite and considerate about the way they word it. That is still leaving the question up to the couple.

Yes and no, the difference between my friends and strangers on the internet is my friends have a much, much more complete picture of me than I could convey with a few posts on a thread asking a question. Yes this is a chance you take when you open your question, comment or concern to an internet forum but I think we all do well to remember that we are exactly that an internet forum. We offer advice and prayers and for most of us we are well meaning but if things take a turn for the left those real friends and family are the ones rolling up their sleeves so to speak. So yes you are right in the sense that a carefully worded piece of advice generally is a good thing but in sensitive situations sometimes its best to let a couple decide or a person in a single person’s case how to best handle certain things.

I thought about one of the examples of a selfish reason using NFP from a previous point in conversation. While we hate kids and are backpacking through Europe is problematic in MOST cases, there are plenty of instances where people add inflection or tone or backstory that doesn’t exist. For me a young couple for decides to use NFP for 6 months to a year to do some traveling isn’t inherently selfish. I think of my own studies and travels abroad and how much richer my parenting will be by being able to expose my children to other cultures and languages. Its all relative.

 

[jilly4ski]

You’re nitpicking. No one is saying using NFP under such circumstances is literally the same thing as contraception but that it represents a “contraceptive mentality,” i.e., disordered intentions.

You can with respect to the intentions of the act, which is again why it’s called a “contraceptive mentality” and not “literally just contraception.”

It is not nitpicking, because the sinfulness of contraception does not have any connection to the intention (good or bad), it is a sinful** means**. It is sinful on its own right, no matter how well intentioned. We need to separate these mechanisms (means and ends are not the same). People on this forum come here and say they can be sterilized or use contraception, because they will die if they get pregnant. This is a good reason to avoid a pregnancy, but it does not justify contraception, the ends do not justify the means. Just so, it is difficult for people to understand when we use “contraceptive mentality,” since the means are not sinful when using NFP, and so it is not connected to contraception. The means can never be sinful, because the Church does not require us to have sex or to avoid having sex on any particular day, or set of days.

 

[thewanderer]

Yes and no, the difference between my friends and strangers on the internet is my friends have a much, much more complete picture of me than I could convey with a few posts on a thread asking a question. Yes this is a chance you take when you open your question, comment or concern to an internet forum but I think we all do well to remember that we are exactly that an internet forum. We offer advice and prayers and for most of us we are well meaning but if things take a turn for the left those real friends and family are the ones rolling up their sleeves so to speak. So yes you are right in the sense that a carefully worded piece of advice generally is a good thing but in sensitive situations sometimes its best to let a couple decide or a person in a single person’s case how to best handle certain things.

I thought about one of the examples of a selfish reason using NFP from a previous point in conversation. While we hate kids and are backpacking through Europe is problematic in MOST cases, there are plenty of instances where people add inflection or tone or backstory that doesn’t exist. For me a young couple for decides to use NFP for 6 months to a year to do some traveling isn’t inherently selfish. I think of my own studies and travels abroad and how much richer my parenting will be by being able to expose my children to other cultures and languages. Its all relative.

Of course their not going to know the whole backstory, which is why they have to be careful to be polite about the way they phrase it so it is clear they are not just trying to veil a jab at the other persons reasons for NFP but are honestly just giving a suggestion which can be taken or left, to pray a little more about their decision. I really don’t see why that is wrong.

 

[thewanderer]

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Again-- any “suggesting” is meddling – no ifs and or buts.

So we are never to try and encourage each other to do good things then? Because that would be just be meddling, right? I’m sorry, but that is just obviously false. Suggesting that someone pray about it and take time to discern their motives is not meddling. It is a suggestion on an internet forum made in all good faith with nothing but the good of the other in mind which can be taken or ignored as the couple in mind sees fit. It is also something that the couple in mind should have already done about their reasons, so either they can give it a pass and say, no, I know my reasons are just, I don’t need any more discernment, or they can spend more time discerning. Its really easy to get caught up in living life ( in all its aspects) the way we want to rather than taking the time out to pray about what God wants, go to adoration and just sit there, let God speak to you about what He wants you to do. Its no different with using NFP, its all too easy to get caught up in daily life and worries and forget to bring it to God in prayer and to seek to do God’s will, even when you’re being a good practicing Catholic who follows the Church’s teachings. I don’t see how it is ever a bad suggestion to anyone that they remember to take a step back, speak to God, and listen to what He has to say about their life. Yes, it can be phrased poorly so that it comes across as though you are judging someone, and that poor phrasing should be avoided, but a suggestion in all good faith and charity that they remember to step out of their busy lives and bring it all to God once in a while is a reminder we all need about our lives very very frequently. I’m sorry, but it is not meddling to do that.

 

[thewanderer]

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Just to add – the use of NFP – would also help prevent – a husband and wife – from turning/using/vewing the other as an object for their own selfish sexual gratification.

This is also an important thing to remember. As well as the fact that providentialism can sometimes be a way for people to put God to the test rather than work with the tools God gave them to do His will. You tend to hear far far more about the errors that sometimes come with NFP than you do about those that sometimes come without it.

 

[maryjk]

Of course their not going to know the whole backstory, which is why they have to be careful to be polite about the way they phrase it so it is clear they are not just trying to veil a jab at the other persons reasons for NFP but are honestly just giving a suggestion which can be taken or left, to pray a little more about their decision. I really don’t see why that is wrong.

I have yet to find someone that is “careful to be polite about the way they phrase it.”

Generally, they start with, “are you sure?” Or, “maybe you should discuss it with your pastor.” Or , “don’t you want more children?”

And yes, I generally roll my eyes. Because if they are close friends they know why I use NFP. And if they aren’t, it isn’t any of their business.

 

[thewanderer]

I have yet to find someone that is “careful to be polite about the way they phrase it.”

Generally, they start with, “are you sure?” Or, “maybe you should discuss it with your pastor.” Or , “don’t you want more children?”

And yes, I generally roll my eyes. Because if they are close friends they know why I use NFP. And if they aren’t, it isn’t any of their business.

And I never said that that was ok. I just was put off by the way people in this thread made it sound as though this is a completely taboo subject. Its a very touchy subject, so people have to be really careful about how they phrase it so they don’t accidentally insult someone (especially online where miscommunications are multiplied due to the restricted form of communication). But that doesn’t mean it is taboo and that it is wrong or hateful to ever even bring up the possibility that a person might think about taking some time in prayer to ensure they have correctly discerned what they should do.

 

[maryjk]

And I never said that that was ok. I just was put off by the way people in this thread made it sound as though this is a completely taboo subject. Its a very touchy subject, **so people have to be really careful about how they phrase it so they don’t accidentally insult someone **(especially online where miscommunications are multiplied due to the restricted form of communication). But that doesn’t mean it is taboo and that it is wrong or hateful to ever even bring up the possibility that a person might think about taking some time in prayer to ensure they have correctly discerned what they should do.

My point is, I can’t think of a way someone could phrase that statement/question and have them not be obnoxious.

Maybe it is because I am sure of the need to use NFP. Maybe if someone wasn’t sure, they would be more open to a question or statement. I don’t know.

 

[thewanderer]

My point is, I can’t think of a way someone could phrase that statement/question and have them not be obnoxious.

Maybe it is because I am sure of the need to use NFP. Maybe if someone wasn’t sure, they would be more open to a question or statement. I don’t know.

Well, all I know is I was (and am) sure about my man, but when my friend started asking asking questions to make sure I knew what I was getting into and to warn me of potential problems she saw, while, yeah, it was slightly irksome, I still welcomed her questioning because it was clear it came from a place of goodwill trying to ensure that I don’t get stuck in a bad marriage. Perhaps if people are sure their reasons and so get annoyed at people who try to help them by advising/suggesting they carefully discern their reasons need to learn to be a little more open to assuming the best of others and responding accordingly? In other words, thank them for their concern and tell them that you have, in fact, discerned this and are more than confident that you have good reason?