Vent about NFP threads

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mommamaree said:
Yeah, I know that.
My point is that it IS within the authority of the couple to decide this matter. Because Wanderer suggested that HV stated that the couple does not have that authority. But a couple need look no further than what is happening in their life and in their hearts to decide whether or not a pregnancy is prudent at that time.
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We’re in agreement. And so is the teaching. It’s fine to tell people “talk to a priest if you want to put your mind at ease” but it’s important to phrase it that way. Simply saying “talk to a priest” implies that they have to do that. On the other hand, there are very scrupulous people who need the consultation of a priest so that they’re not constantly freaking out.

I’ve long said that the whole debate over “just/good/serious/whatever reasons” is one of the craziest things ever and could only happen on the Internet. Given that all of 10% of American Catholic married couples either use NFP or nothing, this is a non-issue at best. It’s probably a counterproductive argument because we could be using our time to do something more fruitful.
 
mommamaree said:
Yeah, I know that.
My point is that it IS within the authority of the couple to decide this matter. Because Wanderer suggested that HV stated that the couple does not have that authority. But a couple need look no further than what is happening in their life and in their hearts to decide whether or not a pregnancy is prudent at that time.
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I think he was suggesting that we follow God’s will. Thus we need to discern whether it is time nor not for another child. But it is not our will to have or not, but God’s. At least that is what I got from it. He is saying that the couple has to discern God’s will, not decide on their own authority. But it is kind of a fine line. And I think God’s will is often revealed to us in very practical everyday things. (Can’t pay bills, I bet it is not God’s will that you have another child right now, and etc.). And yes, that a couple makes the call, I have never seen wanderer suggest that a couple needs to double check their reasons with a priest or spiritual director.
 
jilly4ski said:
I think he was suggesting that we follow God’s will. Thus we need to discern whether it is time nor not for another child. But it is not our will to have or not, but God’s. At least that is what I got from it. He is saying that the couple has to discern God’s will, not decide on their own authority. But it is kind of a fine line. And I think God’s will is often revealed to us in very practical everyday things. (Can’t pay bills, I bet it is not God’s will that you have another child right now, and etc.). And yes, that a couple makes the call, I have never seen wanderer suggest that a couple needs to double check their reasons with a priest or spiritual director.
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Yes exactly In fact, earlier in this thread I argued strongly against the claim that that was necessary. 🙂

ETA: I’m sorry if people are misunderstanding my comments as trying to restrict a couples ability to discern for themselves whether or not they have just reasons. I am not really speaking to that anymore, and I know that puts me off-topic a little, but I am trying to correct a misconception that WarriorMonk put out that its fine to avoid children for selfish reasons so long as you abstain completely.

Also, not that it really matters, but I’m a she. 🙂
 
thewanderer said:
Again, please answer yes or no, do you recognize and admit that HV gives a universal principal for married people that they cannot just do as they plese with respect to procreation but must always try to follow God’s will in this matter?
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I still do not like how you are framing your question, wanderer. :o

I truly mean no offense. I just think that you are not being clear.

I still balk at having the phrases “just do as they please” and “follow God’s will” in the same sentence. Because it makes it sound like a couple making their own choice is more likely to be in opposition to God’s will.

And there is no mandate applying to any particular couple that says “Go have sex with your spouse and produce a child.”

God’s will is often inscrutable. Natural law is obvious. God gave us reason and a will. He expects us to use them to act morally within the natural law framework.

Here is the logic equation as I see it:
Sex makes babies.
Babies are blessings.
Pregnancy would constitute a hardship for us right now.
We must say “no thank you” to the blessing of a baby.
Therefore, we must sacrifice our desire to make love for a time.
We will revisit this next month.
Bing bang boom. Decision made. 😛

No need for divine revelation of God’s will. Natural law and moral principles will suffice. 🙂
 
mommamaree said:
Well, really, a couple could be generous by making love during a fertile time and hoping for a baby. A couple could be generous by making the sacrifice of not making love when they want to because they need to give more of themselves to the family they already have. A couple could be generous by not paying attention to fertility cycles at all and just physically loving their spouse because their spouse needs love. There are thousands of ways of being generous, and it is within the authority of the couple to decide HOW to be generous at any given moment of their married life.

The opposite of that would be the selfish use or the selfish withholding of their sexual faculties, whichever applies in their current circumstances.
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I think we are talking past each other???

I was not referring to abstaining or participating in the marital act as being generous or not, but rather the desire for regulating procreation. This is a very narrow circumstance, where the Church asks us specifically, in fact makes this our duty, to check our motives.
 
jilly4ski said:
This has to be incorrect or the Catechism is wrong. Because if this was the case, the NFP can never be sinful, but we know, through the Catechism that it can be.
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You are using the one-sided version of NFP. Abstinence is not sinful. The other part of NFP involves engaging in marital relations. That’s where the sin can occur. NFP without marital relations is simply abstience, not NFP. If abstinence could be sinful, obviously a Josephite marriage would not be permitted.
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
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Spacing births means they are having relations, otherwise birth is an impossibility and there is nothing to space.

If you haven’t noticed by now, there is great consistency in my arguments:


  1. *]Abstinence is not sinful
    *]If one is having sexual relations with their spouse, the procreative and unitive aspects cannot be separated.
    *]Serious reason is required if the spouses are having sex while attempting not to become pregnant.

    All of the above are entirely consistent with Church’s position.
 
mommamaree said:
I still do not like how you are framing your question, wanderer. :o

I truly mean no offense. I just think that you are not being clear.

I still balk at having the phrases “just do as they please” and “follow God’s will” in the same sentence. Because it makes it sound like a couple making their own choice is more likely to be in opposition to God’s will.

And there is no mandate applying to any particular couple that says “Go have sex with your spouse and produce a child.”

God’s will is often inscrutable. Natural law is obvious. God gave us reason and a will. He expects us to use them to act morally within the natural law framework.

Here is the logic equation as I see it:
Sex makes babies.
Babies are blessings.
Pregnancy would constitute a hardship for us right now.
We must say “no thank you” to the blessing of a baby.
Therefore, we must sacrifice our desire to make love for a time.
We will revisit this next month.
Bing bang boom. Decision made. 😛

No need for divine revelation of God’s will. Natural law and moral principles will suffice. 🙂
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I can rephrase it as do as they please even when they know it is selfish and/or contrary to God’s will for them if you like. I do see why that language could be confusing and why you are objecting to it/wanting me to clarify, it is just easier and shorter to write “do as they please” than to explain exactly what part of that I am referring to. But I can try to explain it more accurately from now on. 🙂
 
Perhaps I misinterpret, but when people talk about how couples “need to leave it up to God’s will,” and they (the couples) do not control the decision about having more children or not, that sounds to me like an argument against NFP. In other words, couples are not required to have relations, but if they do, it must be without regard to fertile timing. I’m not even sure how this would work in practice. Most women who have completed basic health class in school have a general idea of when they are most fertile. I’m not sure how women could be “commanded” to not ever think about that.
 
jilly4ski said:
I think we are talking past each other???

I was not referring to abstaining or participating in the marital act as being generous or not, but rather the desire for regulating procreation. This is a very narrow circumstance, where the Church asks us specifically, in fact makes this our duty, to check our motives.
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There is no other moral way to regulate procreation except by either abstaining from or participating in the marital act, correct? So now from this starting point, please tell me your point again. Sorry I am dense. :o
 
thewanderer said:
I can rephrase it as do as they please even when they know it is selfish and/or contrary to God’s will for them if you like. I do see why that language could be confusing and why you are objecting to it/wanting me to clarify, it is just easier and shorter to write “do as they please” than to explain exactly what part of that I am referring to. But I can try to explain it more accurately from now on. 🙂
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Ah. Kay, thanks! :p;)
 
TheWarriorMonk said:
If you haven’t noticed by now, there is great consistency in my arguments:


  1. *]Abstinence is not sinful
    *]If one is having sexual relations with their spouse, the procreative and unitive aspects cannot be separated.
    *]Serious reason is required if the spouses are having sex while attempting not to become pregnant.

    All of the above are entirely consistent with Church’s position.
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  1. This is what I have read in HV and commentary as well. Your position is clear, and is in submission to the teachings of the Church, yes.
 
thewanderer said:
WarriorMonk, will you please answer my yes or no question?
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Ok, since you could be offline or otherwise busy I will just explain the rest of my thought to you so that then you can either accept it or show me where my reasoning is faulty when you do come back online/have the time to respond. 🙂

Basically, I take it as obvious that HV gives a universal principle that we must try to do God’s will rather than our own with respect to procreation (just as we must in every other are of our life). What necessarily follows from this universal principle is that there is similarly a universal principal that it is wrong for a couple to avoid doing God’s will with respect to procreation when they are aware of what his will is.

This brings us to a scenario where we have a couple who have discerned that God would like them to have another child, but for selfish reasons do not want to. They decide to avoid sex altogether to make sure they don’t have a child. Have they or have they not sinned in doing this? It is clear they broke the above principal of following God’s will with respect to procreation and so that would mean they have sinned. Would you agree with this conclusion WarriorMonk? If so than you must admit that it can be sinful to abstain from relations for the sake of avoiding children if your reasons are selfish/contrary to God’s will.
 
TheWarriorMonk said:
I will have a debate and answer in the appropriate manner, not in the manner someone else wants me to.
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I’m sorry that you are upset with me asking you this question. I have now gone on to explain my argument and asked you to tell me whether or not you agree with it, and, if you disagree with it to show me where my reasoning went wrong. If that is still not what you consider an appropriate manner for debate please let me know what is so that I can try to follow it. I’m honestly not trying to be snarky or catch you out or force you into contradicting yourself (which I do realize could be the impression I gave from asking for an answer a second time for the yes or no question). So I am sorry if I came across as antagonistic or as not being of good-will in this discussion. 🙂
 
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