Vent-"Living Stations"

[EmilB]

“that even in times of error, we as Catholics are to be humble, charitable, and without judgment.”

Absolutely not. Not if someone’s soul is in peril or they are in danger of dragging someone else into sin with them by their actions or omissions. St. Nicholas once punched out a heretic:

"During the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (AD 325), Arius was called upon to defend his position on the inferiority of Christ. Saint Nicholas just couldn’t listen to all of Arius’ nonsense and so he stood up and laid in to Arius with his fist.

The Emperor Constantine and the bishops present at the Council were alarmed by Nicholas’ act of violence against Arius. They immediately stripped Nicholas of his office as a bishop by confiscating the two items that marked out a man as a Christian bishop: Nicholas’ personal copy of the Gospels and his pallium (the vestment worn by all bishops in the East).

Now if that were the end of the story, we probably wouldn’t know about Saint Nicholas, and our children wouldn’t be asking him for presents. However, after Nicholas was deposed, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary visited Nicholas who was being held in a prison cell for his fist-fight with the heretic.

Our Lord Jesus Christ asked Saint Nicholas, “Why are you here?” Nicholas responded, “Because I love you, my Lord and my God.”

Christ then presented Nicholas with his copy of the Gospels. Next, the Blessed Virgin vested Nicholas with his episcopal pallium, thus restoring him to his rank as a bishop.

When the Emperor Constantine heard of this miracle, he immediately ordered that Nicholas be reinstated as a bishop in good standing for the Council of Nicea. Today we recite the Nicene Creed every Sunday so we know how the controversy played out. The bishops at Nicea sided with Saint Nicholas and Saint Athanasius and they condemned Arius as a heretic. To this very day, we still recite in the Creed that Christ is “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.”

 

[PatriceA]

I’m beginning to really understand why you’ve had so much trouble with what is happening at your children’s school.

 

[EmilB]

I’m beginning to really understand why you’ve had so much trouble with what is happening at your children’s school.

Why?

 

[EmilB]

Yet I did not insult you personally…as you have done to all who disagree with you. Is the attitude you are displaying in the spirit of Christian charity?

Being charitable does not always mean being nice. I have tried it that way, believe me. I did not mean to insult anyone. If I did I apologize. And btw PatriceA and everyone who’s been dog-piling, I haven’t had an easy time of it lately, OK? So no, you really don’t understand. You don’t know anything about me or what’s going on in my life. I usually don’t “vent” and now I know why. I thought folks here would understand ( and there are a few and I thank you), but instead I get a lot of tongue clucking and lecturing from people who call me self-righteous and judgemental because I’m being obediant to the teachings and tradtions of the Church.

Goodbye CAF!

 

[Lutheranteach]

My son’s school did the same thing, without a 15th station, and as a protestant (I know my opinion may not be relevant to you) I found the exercise important and meaningful but it seemed unfinished, like the key part of the story was just missing.

 

[karennascargo3]

I’m going to very respectfully disagree because I don’t find your example as scriptural for the particular case in question. I don’t think you can use that as an example of being uncharitable to people who simply have not been taught correctly. If we are to examples of Christ, then He had GREAT tolerance for those who didn’t know or had been taught differently.

If we use the excuse that’s it’s okay to be nasty, know-it-alls, uncharitable, and hurtful in times when someone’s soul is in jeopardy or they will be lead into sin, then we’d be nasty, know-it-alls, uncharitable and hurtful people all the time! After all, when in the world is someone’s soul not in jeopardy or being drawn into sin – including our own at many times?

When then is it appropriate to act with humility, kindness, charity, and without judgment toward others?

But even that aside, I don’t understand why you being so nasty and unkind to your brothers and sister in this forum? I find myself also understanding why Sister won’t respond to you. Again, it isn’t the issue, it’s the delivery of the issue. I know you don’t mean it that way (at least I pray not), but it’s how you’re coming across.

Mostly, I find myself very upset and so terribly sad because you’re going to cause this thread to get locked. It could have been a great discussion of ideas on how to make the changes that could effect these people’s lives and souls. Was that not the intentions you had by posting this; surely it wasn’t just to complain and find others to agree with you?

But instead, you seem determined to turn it into being all about ‘you’ rather than ‘them’. It’s ‘them’ that you should be seeking help with; not justifying your attitude toward them or us. That’s why St. Nicholas was right; not because he lambasted someone who don’t ‘get it’.

 

[karennascargo3]

By the way, I’m very sorry for the trials you are experiencing and certain did not mean to add fire to fuel.

Being a handicap person myself, in a wheelchair, in pain 24/7, with responsibilities that won’t go away just because I’m having a rough day, I know how life’s problems and worries can drain you to the point that you aren’t any where near as jovial as you usually are. I can sympathize with how things get you down and how something someone says just hits you wrong on those days.

Please though, try to find joy and some humor in all things. It’s the secret to getting through those incredibly difficult times. My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your family that life gets easier. <>

 

[EasterJoy]

Jesus’ instructions with regard to the Eucharist was not “to adore” or “pay respect to,” although these are both very good things. His specific instructions were “Take this, all of you and eat” and “Take this cup and drink.” The most important thing we can do with regards to the Eucharist is to receive it and participate in Mass. Again adoration is a beautiful thing, but don’t let it become a distraction. Living stations are a wonderful sight to behold. There is nothing wrong with it being done in the sanctuary. The portrayal of the Passion is more honoring to Christ than 1,000,000 genuflections.

“Don’t let adoration become a distraction”? I cannot possibly figure out what that might even mean. Honestly, I would argue the contrary: that is, if you witness one Stations of the Cross and after that experience neglect to genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament, not with your body only but with your whole self, then 1,000,000 more of the same experience will avail you nothing

Consider what Pope Benedict had to say in his Sacramentum Caritatis: (boldface mine):

The intrinsic relationship between celebration and adoration

1. One of the most moving moments of the Synod came when we gathered in Saint Peter’s Basilica, together with a great number of the faithful, for eucharistic adoration. In this act of prayer, and not just in words, the assembly of Bishops wanted to point out the intrinsic relationship between eucharistic celebration and eucharistic adoration. A growing appreciation of this significant aspect of the Church’s faith has been an important part of our experience in the years following the liturgical renewal desired by the Second Vatican Council. During the early phases of the reform, the inherent relationship between Mass and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was not always perceived with sufficient clarity. For example, an objection that was widespread at the time argued that the eucharistic bread was given to us not to be looked at, but to be eaten. In the light of the Church’s experience of prayer, however, this was seen to be a false dichotomy. As Saint Augustine put it: “nemo autem illam carnem manducat, nisi prius adoraverit; peccemus non adorando – no one eats that flesh without first adoring it; we should sin were we not to adore it.” (191) In the Eucharist, the Son of God comes to meet us and desires to become one with us; eucharistic adoration is simply the natural consequence of the eucharistic celebration, which is itself the Church’s supreme act of adoration. (192) Receiving the Eucharist means adoring him whom we receive. Only in this way do we become one with him, and are given, as it were, a foretaste of the beauty of the heavenly liturgy. The act of adoration outside Mass prolongs and intensifies all that takes place during the liturgical celebration itself. Indeed, “only in adoration can a profound and genuine reception mature. And it is precisely this personal encounter with the Lord that then strengthens the social mission contained in the Eucharist, which seeks to break down not only the walls that separate the Lord and ourselves, but also and especially the walls that separate us from one another.” (193)

The practice of eucharistic adoration

1. With the Synod Assembly, therefore, I heartily recommend to the Church’s pastors and to the People of God the practice of eucharistic adoration, both individually and in community. (194) Great benefit would ensue from a suitable catechesis explaining the importance of this act of worship, which enables the faithful to experience the liturgical celebration more fully and more fruitfully. Wherever possible, it would be appropriate, especially in densely populated areas, to set aside specific churches or oratories for perpetual adoration. I also recommend that, in their catechetical training, and especially in their preparation for First Holy Communion, children be taught the meaning and the beauty of spending time with Jesus, and helped to cultivate a sense of awe before his presence in the Eucharist.

Here I would like to express appreciation and support for all those Institutes of Consecrated Life whose members dedicate a significant amount of time to eucharistic adoration. In this way they give us an example of lives shaped by the Lord’s real presence. I would also like to encourage those associations of the faithful and confraternities specifically devoted to eucharistic adoration; they serve as a leaven of contemplation for the whole Church and a summons to individuals and communities to place Christ at the centre of their lives

 

[kage_ar]

This is a case of the lack of “good manners”.

I was not raised Catholic, I was a good little Evangelical girl. ANY child or adult who dressed immodestly, cut up, ran, smacked gum, acted in a way that was not reverent and resepctful in the Church building would have been swiftly corrected.

This school does not deserve a penny in tuition if they do not teach basic manners, let alone respect for the Eucharist. Shame on them.

 

[CWBetts]

“Don’t let adoration become a distraction”? I cannot possibly figure out what that might even mean. Honestly, I would argue the contrary: that is, if you witness one Stations of the Cross and after that experience neglect to genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament, not with your body only but with your whole self, then 1,000,000 more of the same experience will avail you nothing

Consider what Pope Benedict had to say in his Sacramentum Caritatis: (boldface mine):

The intrinsic relationship between celebration and adoration

1. One of the most moving moments of the Synod came when we gathered in Saint Peter’s Basilica, together with a great number of the faithful, for eucharistic adoration. In this act of prayer, and not just in words, the assembly of Bishops wanted to point out the intrinsic relationship between eucharistic celebration and eucharistic adoration. A growing appreciation of this significant aspect of the Church’s faith has been an important part of our experience in the years following the liturgical renewal desired by the Second Vatican Council. During the early phases of the reform, the inherent relationship between Mass and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was not always perceived with sufficient clarity. For example, an objection that was widespread at the time argued that the eucharistic bread was given to us not to be looked at, but to be eaten. In the light of the Church’s experience of prayer, however, this was seen to be a false dichotomy. As Saint Augustine put it: “nemo autem illam carnem manducat, nisi prius adoraverit; peccemus non adorando – no one eats that flesh without first adoring it; we should sin were we not to adore it.” (191) In the Eucharist, the Son of God comes to meet us and desires to become one with us; eucharistic adoration is simply the natural consequence of the eucharistic celebration, which is itself the Church’s supreme act of adoration. (192) Receiving the Eucharist means adoring him whom we receive. Only in this way do we become one with him, and are given, as it were, a foretaste of the beauty of the heavenly liturgy. The act of adoration outside Mass prolongs and intensifies all that takes place during the liturgical celebration itself. Indeed, “only in adoration can a profound and genuine reception mature. And it is precisely this personal encounter with the Lord that then strengthens the social mission contained in the Eucharist, which seeks to break down not only the walls that separate the Lord and ourselves, but also and especially the walls that separate us from one another.” (193)

The practice of eucharistic adoration

1. With the Synod Assembly, therefore, I heartily recommend to the Church’s pastors and to the People of God the practice of eucharistic adoration, both individually and in community. (194) Great benefit would ensue from a suitable catechesis explaining the importance of this act of worship, which enables the faithful to experience the liturgical celebration more fully and more fruitfully. Wherever possible, it would be appropriate, especially in densely populated areas, to set aside specific churches or oratories for perpetual adoration. I also recommend that, in their catechetical training, and especially in their preparation for First Holy Communion, children be taught the meaning and the beauty of spending time with Jesus, and helped to cultivate a sense of awe before his presence in the Eucharist.

Here I would like to express appreciation and support for all those Institutes of Consecrated Life whose members dedicate a significant amount of time to eucharistic adoration. In this way they give us an example of lives shaped by the Lord’s real presence. I would also like to encourage those associations of the faithful and confraternities specifically devoted to eucharistic adoration; they serve as a leaven of contemplation for the whole Church and a summons to individuals and communities to place Christ at the centre of their lives

I once confessed “not giving the Eucharist proper respect” in Confession. The counsel was to participate in Mass, as that is the single greatest form of Adoration that exists. Don’t become scrupulous over adoration, or if others are acting inappropriately in your eyes. Kids performing living stations is NOT inappropriate.

 

[EasterJoy]

I once confessed “not giving the Eucharist proper respect” in Confession. The counsel was to participate in Mass, as that is the single greatest form of Adoration that exists. Don’t become scrupulous over adoration, or if others are acting inappropriately in your eyes. Kids performing living stations is NOT inappropriate.

The Church allows use of the sanctuary for things of this nature, provided the altar is not used and both the altar and Blessed Sacrament are given proper respect at all times. The OP never disputed this.

How do people, especially children, learn how to behave if no one tells them? If the Sister running this thing was not saying, “Children, I know you are excited, but please remember reverence to the Blessed Sacrament”, then how will they ever learn that the Blessed Sacrament in all justice and truth is due to be given latria, the adoration reserved for God alone?

I posted what our Holy Father has to say about the relationship between celebration of the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration outside the Mass. What your priest told you doesn’t go against that; rather, you seem to have somehow added on to what he said: that is, full participation at Mass alone is all the adoration the Blessed Sacrament requires. I guarantee he would never tell you that.

 

[CWBetts]

The Church allows use of the sanctuary for things of this nature, provided the altar is not used and both the altar and Blessed Sacrament are given proper respect at all times. The OP never disputed this.

How do people, especially children, learn how to behave if no one tells them? If the Sister running this thing was not saying, “Children, I know you are excited, but please remember reverence to the Blessed Sacrament”, then how will they ever learn that the Blessed Sacrament in all justice and truth is due to be given latria, the adoration reserved for God alone?

I posted what our Holy Father has to say about the relationship between celebration of the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration outside the Mass. What your priest told you doesn’t go against that; rather, you seem to have somehow added on to what he said: that is, full participation at Mass alone is all the adoration the Blessed Sacrament requires. I guarantee he would never tell you that.

We must also consider that we are not getting the whole story. There are different perspectives. If only one perspective were ever needed for anything, we wouldn’t need four Gospels. I have a feeling that there is more to this story.

 

[EasterJoy]

We must also consider that we are not getting the whole story. There are different perspectives. If only one perspective were ever needed for anything, we wouldn’t need four Gospels. I have a feeling that there is more to this story.

Yes, there is always more than one side. Having said that, I still don’t understand the meaning of not getting “distracted” by the need for reverence for the Blessed Sacrament or not getting “scrupulous” over adoration. If there is a problem in the Church today, it isn’t that the standards of reverence have been exaggerated!!

The Church teaches that the presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is real, not as if other ways of his being present were not real, but par excellence. In other words, the Lord would not be more truly present if he were standing there, inviting us to put our hands in his side and touch the wounds on his hands. Of course Stations of the Cross pale by comparison.

Reverence is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit: “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; prudent are all who live by it. Your praise endures forever.” Psalm 111:10

Now, of course one does not exercise fear of the Lord by showing disrespect to a religious sister, but I have no evidence that the OP did this. Could there be a history with her? Of course there could. Would a “history” with a person release her from a responsibility to ensure that the conduct of a group under her supervision is always appropriate for a church, especially a church in which the Blessed Sacrament resides? Of course it would not. Is it possible that both sides could stand improvement? Of course it is possible. The fact remains that a group that is loud in church and shows no notice of the Blessed Sacrament is truly a problem…period. It is in no way inappropriate to object on the spot to the person in charge.

The OP wasn’t expecting reverence in excess. It wasn’t that the OP expected there to be no Living Stations, no conversation at all between people leaving, or anything like that. The expectations described were really along the lines of the minimum, not a personal standard that is beyond the norm.

In other words, taking the possible perspectives of the person you are complaining to is never a bad idea. The OP described an objectively problematic situation, though. There aren’t circumstances that would make it acceptable.

 

[kage_ar]

We must also consider that we are not getting the whole story. There are different perspectives. If only one perspective were ever needed for anything, we wouldn’t need four Gospels. I have a feeling that there is more to this story.

Not getting the whole story? What could be missing that would be a valid reason for people to be immodestly dressed and yackey in a Church?

 

[CWBetts]

Not getting the whole story? What could be missing that would be a valid reason for people to be immodestly dressed and yackey in a Church?

How charitable of you to go rushing to judgment. You were not there. You do not know how much of the story was exaggeration. The OP admitted that she was angry. Anger can cloud judgment and play games with recollection.

 

[EasterJoy]

How charitable of you to go rushing to judgment. You were not there. You do not know how much of the story was exaggeration. The OP admitted that she was angry. Anger can cloud judgment and play games with recollection.

The OP wrote: "*I don’t have a problem with the living stations per se. I don’t have a problem with living stations in a chapel. What I DO have a problem with is Catholics who have no idea that they are in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

I think loud talking, laughing, jumping, inappropriate dress, etc. are all “contrary to the holiness of the place*”

Are you saying that if the OP did not report an emotional response to jumping in church, you’d find her story easier to believe? Kids old enough to put on the Living Stations as a devotion jumping and being loud in church immediately afterward…This would not bother you? Remember now: You’ve just prayed the Stations of the Cross. You’re really saying that expecting the principal to guide the children in how to act with a prayerful attitude even while leaving is out of place?

Nobody not present is stomping off to Sr. School Principal and demanding an explanation based on hearsay. Nobody is telling the OP that the situation with Sister should be handled without respect for Sister. We are agreeing with her that what she is describing is not acceptable. Of course if the OP is exaggerating, then that would be different, but we’re giving responses based on the concept that the actual situation was as described. As much as we might hope it wasn’t, I’ve seen just this kind of behavior in a church. It is hardly out of the realm of possibility. (How I wish it were.)

If the children could not fairly be expected to act with the solemnity that fits the occasion–that is, if they could not even be expected to understand that those present would be in a prayerful attitude worthy of respect once the Stations were finished, and to act accordingly, let alone to remember the behavior required at all times when in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament–then a different venue would have been a better choice. Some groups of kids are like that: they lack that maturity or there is a hole in their catechesis. You can’t expect them to sprout those overnight. In that case, the students lack the maturity to lead Stations in church. That is not a rush to judgement. It is simply prudence.

If the Stations were a performance, and not truly a devotion, then the performance should have prudently been put on elsewhere. If it was a devotion, the adults in charge really need to see that it is treated like one. This is doubly true if the devotion is to take place in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

I’ve been to Living Stations put on by grade school kids in a church, and that kind of reverent behavior is fully within the abilities of the age group, if those in charge ask for it.

 

[CWBetts]

The OP wrote: "*I don’t have a problem with the living stations per se. I don’t have a problem with living stations in a chapel. What I DO have a problem with is Catholics who have no idea that they are in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

I think loud talking, laughing, jumping, inappropriate dress, etc. are all “contrary to the holiness of the place*”

Are you saying that if the OP did not report an emotional response to jumping in church, you’d find her story easier to believe? Kids old enough to put on the Living Stations as a devotion jumping and being loud in church immediately afterward…This would not bother you? Remember now: You’ve just prayed the Stations of the Cross. You’re really saying that expecting the principal to guide the children in how to act with a prayerful attitude even while leaving is out of place?

Nobody not present is stomping off to Sr. School Principal and demanding an explanation based on hearsay. Nobody is telling the OP that the situation with Sister should be handled without respect for Sister. We are agreeing with her that what she is describing is not acceptable. Of course if the OP is exaggerating, then that would be different, but we’re giving responses based on the concept that the actual situation was as described. As much as we might hope it wasn’t, I’ve seen just this kind of behavior in a church. It is hardly out of the realm of possibility. (How I wish it were.)

If the children could not fairly be expected to act with the solemnity that fits the occasion–that is, if they could not even be expected to understand that those present would be in a prayerful attitude worthy of respect once the Stations were finished, and to act accordingly, let alone to remember the behavior required at all times when in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament–then a different venue would have been a better choice. Some groups of kids are like that: they lack that maturity or there is a hole in their catechesis. You can’t expect them to sprout those overnight. In that case, the students lack the maturity to lead Stations in church. That is not a rush to judgement. It is simply prudence.

If the Stations were a performance, and not truly a devotion, then the performance should have prudently been put on elsewhere. If it was a devotion, the adults in charge really need to see that it is treated like one. This is doubly true if the devotion is to take place in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

I’ve been to Living Stations put on by grade school kids in a church, and that kind of reverent behavior is fully within the abilities of the age group, if those in charge ask for it.

I am just saying that I won’t take her word as absolute truth. It is reasonable to assume that there may be an element of exaggeration going on.

 

[EmilB]

By CWBetts:
“I am just saying that I won’t take her word as absolute truth. It is reasonable to assume that there may be an element of exaggeration going on.”

By EasterJoy:
“Are you saying that if the OP did not report an emotional response to jumping in church, you’d find her story easier to believe?”

By CWBetts:
“The OP admitted that she was angry.”

By EmilB OP:
Post #1
As we made a bee-line for the door through the throngs of parents and teenagers who were whooping it up, my wife mentioned to the principal-a Sister, mind you-that the Blessed sacrament was in fact in the tabernacle Sister replied “No. Don’t do that. God celebrates His people.” and physically brushed my wife out of the way.

Post#9
**My wife **and I are orthodox, some would say trad

I’m a man. Emil is a masculine name. Good careful reading there future apologists.

By the way, I like the way everyone is calling me a liar behind my back. You guys are good at reading between the lines but apparently not ON the lines.

And kage_ar-Thanks for sticking up for me and actually getting the point. You’re alright!

 

[CWBetts]

By CWBetts:
“I am just saying that I won’t take her word as absolute truth. It is reasonable to assume that there may be an element of exaggeration going on.”

By EasterJoy:
“Are you saying that if the OP did not report an emotional response to jumping in church, you’d find her story easier to believe?”

By CWBetts:
“The OP admitted that she was angry.”

By EmilB OP:
Post #1
As we made a bee-line for the door through the throngs of parents and teenagers who were whooping it up, my wife mentioned to the principal-a Sister, mind you-that the Blessed sacrament was in fact in the tabernacle Sister replied “No. Don’t do that. God celebrates His people.” and physically brushed my wife out of the way.

Post#9
**My wife **and I are orthodox, some would say trad

I’m a man. Emil is a masculine name. Good careful reading there future apologists.

By the way, I like the way everyone is calling me a liar behind my back. You guys are good at reading between the lines but apparently not ON the lines.

And kage_ar-Thanks for sticking up for me and actually getting the point. You’re alright!

I never called you a liar. I simply said that you memory may have been affected by your anger. Nothing personal, it happens.

 

[sharmin]

I’m confused also. Many catholic schools–even parish schools–have 50% or more steudents who are not Catholic or not practicing Catholics. Parents send their children there for the acedemics, the discipline, the reputation, lots of reasons.

If you’ve seen this kind of thing before, than it is very likely that your school also has a sizable population of non-Catholic students.

EasterJoy gave some great advice on dealing with the Principal/Sister’s behavior toward you and your wife. That and huge doses of prayer for the other families in the school are your best recourse.

With this attitude toward Our Lord and the faith in general (no religion classes for the 7th grade), perhaps it would be best to recondition yourself to just think of this school as an ordinary private school with whatever advantages it has outside of faith formation. That appears to be how everyone else is thinking of it.

I am a little confused about something. Why would Jesus being physically present mean that people shouldn’t laugh and have a good time? I can’t imagine Jesus wanting us to only be somber and serious in his presense!