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pedropenduko
Guest
I don’t have an agenda except to get the opinion of those who are knowledgeable and interested of the debate. I want to know the weaknesses and the strength of both sides.
po18guy
Well-known member
I am very sorry, but to me the InC is so obviously a man-made religion that there is nothing to debate. To debate is to give the false impression that the two are somehow equal.
The InC should debate the Jehovah’s Witnesses, since the two semi-secret organizations act very similarly.
The InC should debate the Jehovah’s Witnesses, since the two semi-secret organizations act very similarly.
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hockeyfan
Guest
Somewhere in between minutes 50-55, he makes some very misleading statements. He claims that at Vatican 1 we name our church the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. Of course he neglects that we were called the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the council of Nicea. Of course this is important because he is attacking the legitimacy of our church as being a modern church by name.
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hockeyfan
Guest
In minute 1:07, he cites half a scripture to imply that Peter was not in charge, but James. He reads Galatians 2:9 but stops halfway through it. I will put in bold the part that he edited out.
Context is everything.
He stops at the part where they “seem to be pillars” and leaves out that they gave Paul the authority to preach to the Gentiles. With that context, seem to be pillars appears to mean more that they were acting like leaders of the Church and that he preached on their authority.
Context is everything.
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hockeyfan
Guest
Oh, also for discussion, he uses 1 Timothy 4:1-4 to argue that the Catholic Church is demonic. I am glad the Catholic called him out on it in the rebutal.
discuss?
po18guy
Well-known member
Karl Keating, Catholic Answers founder, reported that he was in the Phillipines at such an event years ago. He states that the Iglesia ni Cristo ‘fans’ were glassy-eyed and staring. The whole experience was rather frightening. This organization is shadowy and secretive, seemingly controlling many aspects of its followers thoughts.
Let’s compare this fringe sect with the Catholic Church as they were 1000 years ago. Can’t. 500 years ago. Nope. 250 years ago? Nah. 100 years ago? Wait a couple more years. This sect was officially born the same year as the JWs predicted the end of the world. Strange coincidence, huh?
As one might suspect, it shares several traits with other religious movements that very suddenly sprung up on the face of the earth in a very short time frame. Throw some of the beliefs of the LDS, the JWs and the SDA into a jar and shake it up, maybe add a dash of Islam, and you have the InC. A very odd mixture whose adherants become “glassy-eyed” when their faith is challenged.
Their “prophet” changed the revealed nature of God, exactly as did the ‘angels’ that inspired Islam and Mormonism.
A good scripture verse here is: Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Let’s compare this fringe sect with the Catholic Church as they were 1000 years ago. Can’t. 500 years ago. Nope. 250 years ago? Nah. 100 years ago? Wait a couple more years. This sect was officially born the same year as the JWs predicted the end of the world. Strange coincidence, huh?
As one might suspect, it shares several traits with other religious movements that very suddenly sprung up on the face of the earth in a very short time frame. Throw some of the beliefs of the LDS, the JWs and the SDA into a jar and shake it up, maybe add a dash of Islam, and you have the InC. A very odd mixture whose adherants become “glassy-eyed” when their faith is challenged.
Their “prophet” changed the revealed nature of God, exactly as did the ‘angels’ that inspired Islam and Mormonism.
A good scripture verse here is: Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
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pedropenduko
Guest
You might not notice it yet, but the INC is growing here in the US, and they are buying properties and small churches and convert them to their chapel.
Romero was right to debate Ventilacion. You don’t ignore a group who is proselytizing, you stop them by exposing them, lest they prey the unsuspecting and the ignorant.
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pedropenduko
Guest
That is a good one right, why insist on something that is not official? Romero pointed out that that is not the official name of the Catholic Church and yet Ventilacion insisted that it is.
Nope about Romero, did he make any mistake?
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pablope
Guest
Who is Romero? I am familiar with Ventilacion…he and Karl Keating had a debate years ago and is posted on you tube too, which I had seen.
youtube.com/watch?v=zqA13NPPhik
I think it is in several videos, so you may have to look for the first one. Ventilacion made me laugh so hard in his debate here with Keating.
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pedropenduko
Guest
I think Jesse Romero did a better job than Karl Keating.
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jerry0503214
Guest
Somewhere in between minutes 50-55, he makes some very misleading statements. He claims that at Vatican 1 we name our church the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. Of course he neglects that we were called the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the council of Nicea. Of course this is important because he is attacking the legitimacy of our church as being a modern church by name.
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BillyHW
Guest
I don’t look forward to watching the Romero vs. Ventilacion debate, but like a train wreck, I probably can’t help but watch it.
I’m watching the Ventilacion vs. Keating “debate” now and I can certainly feel Karl’s exasperation. Ventilacion is rude, obnoxious, and lacks the intellectual capacity for serious discussion and argumentation. His phoney acting translates into our culture about as well as his speech translates into English, and it is transparent to all but his brainwashed, and probably mostly semi-literate followers. I realize that English is not his first language, but I imagine he sounds very nearly as stupid in his native tongue.
Keating took the wrong approach during the debate though, and let his frustrations take over. If he had just stayed calm and let Ventilacion embarrass himself, he would have come out the winner. It was obvious that Ventilacion tactic was to just quote some scripture showing that Jesus was a man, that Christ was the foundation stone etc. and ask Karl if he agreed with it. Karl should have just agreed to everything. This would have disarmed Ventilacion, and then when it was his own turn to speak, Karl could have calmly mentioned all the other passages that imply that Jesus was also divine and that a consistent theology has to acknowledge and try to explain and reconcile both sets of passages, and that the Catholic position is the one that best does this. It was also clear that Ventilacion would not answer any questions, so why even bother? Keating should have just conceded his Q time in protest.
I don’t mean to be too hard on Karl. Everyone is entitled to a stinker once in a while, and the whole sham was obviously a setup.
Does anyone know if Patrick Madrid has ever debated with someone from INC?
I’m watching the Ventilacion vs. Keating “debate” now and I can certainly feel Karl’s exasperation. Ventilacion is rude, obnoxious, and lacks the intellectual capacity for serious discussion and argumentation. His phoney acting translates into our culture about as well as his speech translates into English, and it is transparent to all but his brainwashed, and probably mostly semi-literate followers. I realize that English is not his first language, but I imagine he sounds very nearly as stupid in his native tongue.
Keating took the wrong approach during the debate though, and let his frustrations take over. If he had just stayed calm and let Ventilacion embarrass himself, he would have come out the winner. It was obvious that Ventilacion tactic was to just quote some scripture showing that Jesus was a man, that Christ was the foundation stone etc. and ask Karl if he agreed with it. Karl should have just agreed to everything. This would have disarmed Ventilacion, and then when it was his own turn to speak, Karl could have calmly mentioned all the other passages that imply that Jesus was also divine and that a consistent theology has to acknowledge and try to explain and reconcile both sets of passages, and that the Catholic position is the one that best does this. It was also clear that Ventilacion would not answer any questions, so why even bother? Keating should have just conceded his Q time in protest.
I don’t mean to be too hard on Karl. Everyone is entitled to a stinker once in a while, and the whole sham was obviously a setup.
Does anyone know if Patrick Madrid has ever debated with someone from INC?
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darwin_86
Guest
I have watched both the debate of Keating vs. Ventilacion and Romero vs. Ventilacion. My observation is that Ventilacion never made any concrete point nor was able to substantiate any thing. Ventilacion’s tactic is to try to make folly of every thing, he tries to make fun to frustrate his adversary, because he knew that he cannot by reason and logic justify anything and face the Catholic scholars.
The most unscholar idea he tried to point out is when he said that since the bible said “Church of Christ” then since their group is named as such then they are the true one, hehe, logic of a kindergarten. what about the others calling themselves as same then? now who among all this one is the true one following Ventilacion’s argument. Does Ventilacion mean who ever call his Church, the Church of Christ literally then that is the true one?
Another is he kept on trying to point out that since the word Catholic Church is not in the Bible then it is not the true Church of Christ, which is like he was digging his own grave, because Manalo’s name is not in the bible also, it only follows that he has no authority as they claim.
One more thing I observed about Ventilacion is he love to misquote authors, as if he knew better than the authors.
He also love to cite unknown catholic author’s trying to debunk Romero’s argument, but Romero was right that unless it follows the doctrines and catechisms approved by the Pope it is not official and it is not the official teaching of the church. Some Catholic defenders here in the Philippines used this strategy against the INC here. The Catholics provided the question and they used writings from the official publication of INC “the Pasugo” and there, it was revealed how the INC contradict their own points.
Like when they said the Catholic church was established by the devil, but in one of their Pasugo volume they said that the Catholic church was the church Christ established in the early days before it fell of to apostasy. They were revealed in their own publication in reference to their branding of the Catholic church how they view Christ.
The tactic of Ventilacion is pure bluff and distraction unfortunately Romero has a loud voice is fierce also, if you could see the facial expresion of Ventilacion, that uncertain smile, he was the one getting frustrated. The failure of Keating was that he was soft spoken. But despite the numerical disparity and the unfriendly conditions Keating did well.
God bless the defenders of the true faith
You may view this blog also, the Catholic defenders here in the Philippines exposed how INC is so contradicting it self, a clear proof of inconsistency. it is written in tagalog, We can ask some filipino friends to translate it for you if you want it.
katotohanantungkolsainc-1914.blogspot.com/
The most unscholar idea he tried to point out is when he said that since the bible said “Church of Christ” then since their group is named as such then they are the true one, hehe, logic of a kindergarten. what about the others calling themselves as same then? now who among all this one is the true one following Ventilacion’s argument. Does Ventilacion mean who ever call his Church, the Church of Christ literally then that is the true one?
Another is he kept on trying to point out that since the word Catholic Church is not in the Bible then it is not the true Church of Christ, which is like he was digging his own grave, because Manalo’s name is not in the bible also, it only follows that he has no authority as they claim.
One more thing I observed about Ventilacion is he love to misquote authors, as if he knew better than the authors.
He also love to cite unknown catholic author’s trying to debunk Romero’s argument, but Romero was right that unless it follows the doctrines and catechisms approved by the Pope it is not official and it is not the official teaching of the church. Some Catholic defenders here in the Philippines used this strategy against the INC here. The Catholics provided the question and they used writings from the official publication of INC “the Pasugo” and there, it was revealed how the INC contradict their own points.
Like when they said the Catholic church was established by the devil, but in one of their Pasugo volume they said that the Catholic church was the church Christ established in the early days before it fell of to apostasy. They were revealed in their own publication in reference to their branding of the Catholic church how they view Christ.
The tactic of Ventilacion is pure bluff and distraction unfortunately Romero has a loud voice is fierce also, if you could see the facial expresion of Ventilacion, that uncertain smile, he was the one getting frustrated. The failure of Keating was that he was soft spoken. But despite the numerical disparity and the unfriendly conditions Keating did well.
God bless the defenders of the true faith
You may view this blog also, the Catholic defenders here in the Philippines exposed how INC is so contradicting it self, a clear proof of inconsistency. it is written in tagalog, We can ask some filipino friends to translate it for you if you want it.
katotohanantungkolsainc-1914.blogspot.com/
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Bengoshi
Guest
You guys should also watch the very recent debate (July 12, 2014) between the INC (Ventilacion) and the Catholic Faith Defenders (CFD) hel in Cebu.
Another good debate to watch is the one between Ventilacion (INC) vs. Richard Thompson (SDA). Their topic was on the deity of Christ. We all know that the SDA is trinitarian. Ventilacion’s tactics in all his debates are the same: ridicule, sarcasm, and avoiding answering the question directly.
These debates can be found on YouTube.
Another good debate to watch is the one between Ventilacion (INC) vs. Richard Thompson (SDA). Their topic was on the deity of Christ. We all know that the SDA is trinitarian. Ventilacion’s tactics in all his debates are the same: ridicule, sarcasm, and avoiding answering the question directly.
These debates can be found on YouTube.
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Church_Militant
Guest
The problem with debates with the INC is that they demand control of the venue and load the hall with their people who seek to intimidate their opponents. That won’t hack here in the U.S. and to be honest, I would never agree to such terms and it was pretty gutsy of Keating and others who have.
CA has a good tract on these guys. Iglesia ni Cristo
CA has a good tract on these guys. Iglesia ni Cristo
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