Verbal Etiquette question here: c'mon down teachers, professors, et all!

[reganq]

OK, since I have been given permission… If I get blasted, so be it.

Your friend and other such-minded women could avoid MUCH confusion if they would just go ahead and take their husbands’ last names. After all, what is so wrong with taking your husband’s last name?

We have been working on getting our children to use Mr. and Mrs. with adults, too. It’s very hard for me because I grew up referring to my parents’ friends by their first names, no Mr. or Mrs.

 

[KCtheMommy]

Well, now that the question has been officially answered we can throw in our personal anecdotes and opinions…

When my older kids were little we lived in Maryland, where it was the custom to call women by “Miss” and their first names. I liked being Miss Mary.

Somehow, at the high school I worked at last year I ended up being Ms. G. I didn’t mind that at all. If I run into any of those kids, that’s still what they call me.

I would agree though with the above advice, if one of your friends wants your children to address her in a certain way, I would just let your kids know that is the way that she
wants to be addressed. In all other situations, the rules that you have laid out sound best, KC.

OH! Glad you chimed in! Because in our family you are “Godmother Mary,” or Ms. LastName since the older three are just getting to know you. You get the distinctive title of Godmother Mary, well, because you are! There is also Godmother Ann, Godmother Kristina, and of course Aunt Susan.

Does anyone else have their children refer to their Godparents by the title – specifically English speakers since we don’t have an honor/family name for the role?

 

[sanctamaria17]

It’s not a Church teaching to take your husband’s last name, just cultural/societal standards and usually personal preference.

My kids will use Mr. and Mrs. or Ms. or what the specific adult prefers. Politeness isn’t so much formality as respect. That’s what I want to teach them. Naturally, there are certain times where Mr/Mrs/Ms will always be required (school, etc.) but other than that, it’s about respecting choices.

 

[dulcissima]

Godmother Mary. That’s sweet. Thank you.

We have never used that. Since all of the Godparents are aunts and uncles, they go by that.

 

[KCtheMommy]

OK, since I have been given permission… If I get blasted, so be it.

**Your friend and other such-minded women could avoid MUCH confusion if they would just go ahead and take their husbands’ last names. After all, what is so wrong with taking your husband’s last name? **

We have been working on getting our children to use Mr. and Mrs. with adults, too. It’s very hard for me because I grew up referring to my parents’ friends by their first names, no Mr. or Mrs.

Sigh. It’s funny you say this. In our group of friends there are three catholics. Two fall-away’s. We are the only three, plus just one of the fall-away’s: who go by our husband’s last name. I have embarrassingly introduced my children to one of the husband’s as “Mr. Conners” and was immediately corrected with “No, Mr. Stanopolous.” :banghead: Can you people warn me when you are winging it maiden name like please?

I live in CA, there has been a long thought that giving up your name meant giving up your identity. I haven’t lost my identity: I am Ian’s wife and mother to my children. Simple as that. I’m still KC. It’s insane though. I had to write out SO MANY NAMES on the invitations because not only don’t they use their husband’s name, their kid’s are hyphenated too! Some with names that aren’t even on the parent’s last name roster! I’m thinking “what? did you make up a last name to give them more individuality?” (I have seen this.)

 

[lizaanne]

Actually, she can also be correctly addressed as Mrs. John Jones. Emiliy Post and Crane’s say so.

I am all for following proper etiquette and protocol, I’m a stickler for it actually. But how is it in any way correct to address someone by a name that is not theirs?

Yes - technically she is married to Mr. Jones, but that is not her name, not legally or socially.

They have me baffled on this one - I can’t see how it can ever be appropriate (not to mention polite!!) to call someone something that is not their name.



~Liza

 

[mercygate]

FWIW, in my 6th grade CCD class, I expect the kids to call me “Mrs. Lastname” and I call THEM Mr. Lastname and Mss Lastname.

 

[dixieagle]

I agree completely.

However, this would not be correct.

If she is married to Mr. Jones, but kept her name of Smith, to call her Mrs. Jones would not be correct, nor would Mrs. Smith.

Her name is NOT Mrs. Jones because she does not call herself this, legally or otherwise.

Her name is NOT Mrs. Smith because that would indicate she is married to a man with the last name of Smith, which is not correct.

Sadly - in this situation, she must be addressed as Ms. Like it or not. The other options are not accurate, no matter how much we might like to refer to her as Mrs. Lastname, it is not possible given the choice she has made.

~Liza

Absolutely right on this one, Lizaanne. As a woman is not legally required to assume her husband’s last name, she can call herself whatever she wants, and the “Mrs” with her “maiden” name makes no sense.

I imagine many married women who do choose to use their husbands’ last names might be annoyed if someone chose to use “Ms” when they had expressed their preference for “Mrs.”

Though I grew up a Yankee, I have been long since transplanted to the south, where they have the lovely custom of calling women “Miss Kathy” (or "Ms Kathy.) It comes in handy when addressing close friends who are older than you are, but when Miss (Lastname) is too formal sounding.

I think the polite thing to do, in any case, is to address someone in the manner THEY choose. We are all perfectly capable of deciding what we wish to be called, and it should be respected.

 

[jmcrae]

I am all for following proper etiquette and protocol, I’m a stickler for it actually. But how is it in any way correct to address someone by a name that is not theirs?

Yes - technically she is married to Mr. Jones, but that is not her name, not legally or socially.

They have me baffled on this one - I can’t see how it can ever be appropriate (not to mention polite!!) to call someone something that is not their name.



~Liza

It is their name - they just don’t have it recorded on their legal paperwork.

 

[Ghoti]

Does a dictionary have any standing here?

Usage Note: Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women’s movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). Ms. is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title Ms. serves exactly the same function that Mr. does for men, and like Mr. it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, Ms. is correct regardless of a woman’s marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. Some women prefer Miss or Mrs., however, and courtesy requires that their wishes be respected.

From the American Heritage Dictionary.

Miss Manners – whom I believe to be rather conservative when it comes to etiquette – weighs in thus:

Dear Miss Manners,
My husband passed away over eight years ago. I was always under the impression that I could still be referred to as “Mrs.”

What is the correct practice? Should I not be getting annoyed with being constantly referred to as “Ms.”? This may seem very silly but it is something that I need to have clarified.

Gentle Reader,
Yes, you are still Mrs., and no, you should not be annoyed by Ms.

Contrary to widespread opinion, a lady’s name does not change when she is widowed. If she styled herself “Mrs. Rudolph Rendelly” when Rudolph was alive, she should still be addressed that way, and not suddenly become “Mrs. Aurora Rendelly.”

However, the current practice today is chaos. There are multiple choices of naming styles in use simultaneously, and Miss Manners begs you to sympathize with those who are confused about which one to use for whom. “Ms.,” which applies equally to the married, unmarried and sort of married, is the sensible honorific when one does not know an individual’s preference.

from here

I will generally address people the way they **wish **to be addressed. And I am not about to inquire about a woman’s marital status just so I might know which honorific to use. It may very well be that she prefers “Doctor”, since she’s a neurosurgeon. Or “Your Worship”, since she’s the mayor. Or “Your Excellency”, since she’s the Governor-General. Or “Your Majesty”, on account o’ she’s the Queen. Or, in any event, “Ma’am.”

I generally address women I don’t know as “Ms. —” (if I know the last name) or “Ma’am” (if I don’t) until directed otherwise – by them.

And once they have been addressed by name once, they are further addressed as “Ma’am” – just as all men, once named, are subsequently normally addressed as “Sir”.

The exceptions are the religious – Father, Brother, Your Grace (or when all else fails, “Padre”); or Mother or Sister; as appropriate.

 

[1ke]

I am all for following proper etiquette and protocol, I’m a stickler for it actually. But how is it in any way correct to address someone by a name that is not theirs?

Yes - technically she is married to Mr. Jones, but that is not her name, not legally or socially.

They have me baffled on this one - I can’t see how it can ever be appropriate (not to mention polite!!) to call someone something that is not their name.



~Liza

It absolutely is her name socially. She is married to John Jones, therefore she is Mrs. John Jones.

She can retain her maiden name legally. She can be Ms. Jane Smith. It doesn’t change the fact that she is Mrs. John Jones.

 

[IrishAm]

I am all for following proper etiquette and protocol, I’m a stickler for it actually. But how is it in any way correct to address someone by a name that is not theirs?

Yes - technically she is married to Mr. Jones, but that is not her name, not legally or socially.

They have me baffled on this one - I can’t see how it can ever be appropriate (not to mention polite!!) to call someone something that is not their name.



~Liza

Ditto, ditto, ditto. I agree. Small children don’t need to know why, Ms. Johnson is Ms. Johnson and Mrs. Smith is Mrs. Smith, and Miss Jones is Miss Jones. Frankly, putting Ms/Mrs/or/Miss in front of a name means very little. Miss Johnson the lawyer may be Mrs. Randolph in her social life. Mrs. Smith may be married, widowed, or even divorced – YES, a divorced woman is properly Mrs. MaidenName MarriedName (never Mrs. FirstName MarriedName). And Ms. Johnson may be anything she is.

What is very rude is to call someone anything other than what they choose to be called.

(And, by the way, HURRAY FOR YOU for teaching your children to call adults by a title and surname. That’s a wonderful lesson for them to learn. And it lets them someday have the great honor of having a life-long relationship develop where the adult finally say, “Oh, Susan, we have become such friends. Please call me Joan rather than Mrs. Schwartz.” )

 

[KCtheMommy]

OK I feel the winds of change and flame coming, and that some of you think I may be out of line insisting that my children refer to adults properly even if the adults don’t like it.

I am just going to say:

I have not lost a single friendship over this. I have not been in a fight over it. When I explain my reason’s it’s met typically with accept, and also, most-often: regard. I have also influenced a lot of other mother’s to do the same. I didn’t tell them to, they just liked the concept when I introduced it to them.

AGAIN, there are exceptions. Difficult last names we wing-it. Priests – they make the rules of their name.

The only time I have a hard time with the last name game is when I am being introduced or referred to by KC – to a child, by their parent. As specified, only with mothers of toddlers. Same women who kept their last names. End of story.

 

[mercygate]

OK I feel the winds of change and flame coming, and that some of you think I may be out of line insisting that my children refer to adults properly even if the adults don’t like it.

I am just going to say:

I have not lost a single friendship over this. I have not been in a fight over it. When I explain my reason’s it’s met typically with accept, and also, most-often: regard. I have also influenced a lot of other mother’s to do the same. I didn’t tell them to, they just liked the concept when I introduced it to them.

AGAIN, there are exceptions. Difficult last names we wing-it. Priests – they make the rules of their name.

The only time I have a hard time with the last name game is when I am being introduced or referred to by KC – to a child, by their parent. As specified, only with mothers of toddlers. Same women who kept their last names. End of story.

However, you DID ask.

 

[KCtheMommy]

Ditto, ditto, ditto. I agree. Small children don’t need to know why, Ms. Johnson is Ms. Johnson and Mrs. Smith is Mrs. Smith, and Miss Jones is Miss Jones. Frankly, putting Ms/Mrs/or/Miss in front of a name means very little. Miss Johnson the lawyer may be Mrs. Randolph in her social life. Mrs. Smith may be married, widowed, or even divorced – YES, a divorced woman is properly Mrs. MaidenName MarriedName (never Mrs. FirstName MarriedName). And Ms. Johnson may be anything she is.

What is very rude is to call someone anything other than what they choose to be called.

(And, by the way, HURRAY FOR YOU for teaching your children to call adults by a title and surname. That’s a wonderful lesson for them to learn. And it lets them someday have the great honor of having a life-long relationship develop where the adult finally say, “Oh, Susan, we have become such friends. Please call me Joan rather than Mrs. Schwartz.” )

Just an aside, my older two have formally learned the proper use of Titles (although not this in-depth – my head is starting to spin. :hypno: ) in school, and in home-schooling. The basics of Married=Mrs. Non-married=Miss. Everyone else=Ms… So yeah, they do need to know some of it, but not the details of a personal life, I agree. (oh and they could care less why their two year old sister’s friend’s parents all have different last names.)

Boy the men have it easy don’t they? You betcha Mr.!

 

[KCtheMommy]

However, you DID ask.

I did ask, and then I clarified.

I am just SAYING I don’t run into many problems with it.

 

[fivegoldenrings]

Hi, All!
This topic is so interesting. I remember when there were only two choices: Miss and Mrs., way back in the 60’s. Then came Miz. I always thought that Ms. stood for Miz. And “Miz” was a rather untraditional, liberal form of Miss. Miss was unmarried, Mrs. was married. But Miz? Miz was a rather wild woman!
I still associate Ms. with being rather wild. Not an innocent Miss, and not a matronly Mrs. Independent and provocative, perhaps? And smokes Virginia Slims? That is who I think of when I see “Ms.”

 

[Ghoti]

As an added note:

Where I come from, “Missus” is considered a traditional respectful form of address for an older woman, regardless of her marital status (the male equivalent is “Skipper”). Also, all female teachers were “Miss” when I grew up, regardless of marital status.

I do not follow those rules here, since I am no longer at home. I am not so sure that Mr Subramanhiam, for example, would truly appreciate the intent.

 

[dixieagle]

OK I feel the winds of change and flame coming, and that some of you think I may be out of line insisting that my children refer to adults properly even if the adults don’t like it.

I am just going to say:

I have not lost a single friendship over this. I have not been in a fight over it. When I explain my reason’s it’s met typically with accept, and also, most-often: regard. I have also influenced a lot of other mother’s to do the same. I didn’t tell them to, they just liked the concept when I introduced it to them.

AGAIN, there are exceptions. Difficult last names we wing-it. Priests – they make the rules of their name.

The only time I have a hard time with the last name game is when I am being introduced or referred to by KC – to a child, by their parent. As specified, only with mothers of toddlers. Same women who kept their last names. End of story.

I am all for proper etiquette and politeness (I have just fought the etiquette war to end all etiquette wars during my daughter’s recent wedding, but, that is for a completely different thread…)

However, etiquette really boils down to treating people well, politely and fairly, if you think about it. I agree completely that children should address adults by SOME honorific (Mr., Dr., Miss, Mrs., …or Ms.) with either last name or first name, depending upon the region and custom. But, if we are talking politeness, what’s polite about forcing someone to answer to a name that is not of their choosing, and sometimes, not even their legal name??? No matter what we might think, a married woman is NOT required, even socially, to go by “Mrs. John Lastname”. (emilypost.com/everyday/forms_of_address.htm)

Very interesting thread, indeed.

 

[KCtheMommy]

I wouldn’t have my kid’s refer to the mother in question with the maiden name as Mrs. John Johnson. I feel that would be rude, disrespectful (I mean really, she kept her last name for a REASON, undermining it on proper etiquette alone wouldn’t be kind or fair.) and would undermine the friendship.

I have read all the responses and have come to the conclusion she should go by Ms. Johnson. Not Mrs. – married or no. It’s the proper way to do it.

I left it as Mrs. on our last visit. Now I’ll change it up to Ms. My kids probably won’t EVEN NOTICE.