Verbal Etiquette question here: c'mon down teachers, professors, et all!

[mercygate]

Hi, All!
This topic is so interesting. I remember when there were only two choices: Miss and Mrs., way back in the 60’s. Then came Miz. I always thought that Ms. stood for Miz. And “Miz” was a rather untraditional, liberal form of Miss. Miss was unmarried, Mrs. was married. But Miz? Miz was a rather wild woman!
I still associate Ms. with being rather wild. Not an innocent Miss, and not a matronly Mrs. Independent and provocative, perhaps? And smokes Virginia Slims? That is who I think of when I see “Ms.”

I was starting my working life in the '60s when Ms came in. (Yes, I was only an infant, but precocious ) It wasn’t really the strident feminists who started it. I certainly wasn’t one of those but it WAS annoying to have everybody clued into my marital status because of the “Miss” title. I started using “Ms” for work. Off hours, I was definitely Miss Annabelle Jones.

After I married Mr. Right, I became Mrs. Robert Right. Even then it was considered a little stuffy. But that’s me. I have been called a “fuddy-duddy” by the New York Times. High compliment, if you ask me.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I go with the simple tried and true classic “sir” or “ma’am” and leave it at that sans last name entirely.

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If the child in question is under 8 or 10, I think it’s petty of her to make a big deal out of it.

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A child older than that, can have the etiquette explained.

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**But unless one knows the details of her life, they would still be left in the dark. **For example, upon meeting a lady for the first time, most would not know that she has a seperate name from her husband and thus would presume “Mrs.” if they saw a wedding ring or knew she was married.

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So to avoid it all, I insist my child stick with “sir” and "ma’am"

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I recently found this to be handy when introducing lesbian “couples” too. I refuse to let my children call a lesbian “Mrs.” I just won’t do it. I won’t let them be rude or hateful, but I will NOT let them use “Mrs” for that situation either.

 

[maria29]

I currently use my maiden name because as someone who works in production that’s whats on my demo reels. I also use it because I’m adopted and I’ve started the search for my birthmother and want to keep the things easy if she does decide to search for me.

Does this mean I hate my dh or respect him? No of course not!

 

[bpbasilphx]

No Miss Julie, Miss Jennifer, etc. Certainly no first names.

**When I had my first teaching job in the deep South, the women teachers were ALL addressed as Miss Firstname. Actually, it was first AND middle name: Miss Reba Mae, Miss Jean Louise.

When a friend of mine was in high school, he saw one of his favorite teachers standing in the hall talking to a new collegue. “Miss Opal! How are you doing?” “Just fine, Fred. Blah, blah, blah” “And how are Miss Pearl and Miss Ruby [her sisters]?” “All well…” and so on.

The new colleague said, “So do all the students call the teachers by their first names?” Miss Opal replied, “Those who have been raised right do.”**

 

[KCtheMommy]

**
I recently found this to be handy when introducing lesbian “couples” too. I refuse to let my children call a lesbian “Mrs.” I just won’t do it. I won’t let them be rude or hateful, but I will NOT let them use “Mrs” for that situation either.**

I don’t even know where to go with this one.

Especially considering gay marriage is legal here in our state now.

We have very OLD family friends from when I was a little girl who are a lesbian couple. I haven’t received a wedding announcement or invitation, nor has my mom for that matter (they were her friends) – but what does one do in that situation?

Ms. it is – I think. Whichever last name they are using. Uh oh, here we are back at the hyphens. LOL

 

[lizaanne]

I don’t even know where to go with this one.

Especially considering gay marriage is legal here in our state now.

We have very OLD family friends from when I was a little girl who are a lesbian couple. I haven’t received a wedding announcement or invitation, nor has my mom for that matter (they were her friends) – but what does one do in that situation?

Ms. it is – I think. Whichever last name they are using. Uh oh, here we are back at the hyphens. LOL

Hmmm - major teaching moment there for the kiddies I suppose!!! Just because it is legal does not make it a marriage, we all know that around here!!

I agree - stick to Ms., and pray you don’t get invited to the ceremony!

~Liza

 

[BeeSweet]

It absolutely is her name socially. She is married to John Jones, therefore she is Mrs. John Jones.

She can retain her maiden name legally. She can be Ms. Jane Smith. It doesn’t change the fact that she is Mrs. John Jones.

This doesn’t make sense, at least not in Texas. I had to legally change my last name to my husband’s by showing proof of our marriage, changing my social security information, and my driver’s license, not to mention every bank acccount and utility, and on and on… To keep my name, I didn’t have to do a thing. I would still be named as I was before my marriage if I’d not gone through all the legalities to formally change it.

It’s not a Church teaching to take your husband’s last name, just cultural/societal standards and usually personal preference.

My kids will use Mr. and Mrs. or Ms. or what the specific adult prefers. Politeness isn’t so much formality as respect. That’s what I want to teach them. Naturally, there are certain times where Mr/Mrs/Ms will always be required (school, etc.) but other than that, it’s about respecting choices.

This is the best answer. From the Emily Post website:

Etiquette is more than just manners!

All the manners mentioned in this book are rooted in three fundamental principles: respect, consideration, and honesty. As your children learn manners, it is essential that they also learn these principles, for the manners by themselves are hollow rules to be memorized and soon forgotten.

Children learn from the adults around them. Treat children with respect and they will learn self-respect and to respect others. Treat them with consideration and they will learn to be considerate of others. Always be honest in what you do and say, and they will learn to be honest in all they do and say.

source

The bottom line is you are not allowed to rename someone. If I want to be called Ms. Puffinstuff, but you want your children to call me Mrs. Puffinstuff regardless of how I feel about it, then that’s just as bad as when your request to be called Mrs. Smith is ignored by friends who refer to you as KC to their children. Consistency is a necessity in parenting, but correctness should take precedence. In matters of etiquette, it is more correct to be respectful and considerate of others and then honestly explain to your children why there must be an exception to the general rule. Obviously this doesn’t make it easy on you as a parent, but the point of etiquette is to teach children to have respect for others, not just teach them a “rule” for them to follow.

You’re doing a fine job as it is, your children will see the consistency in your behavior without you having to worry about it so much.

 

[Ghoti]

Does anyone here call their father “Sir” or their mother “Ma’am”?

The first time I ever saw that was on “Leave It to Beaver”. I thought it quite strange, as I have never addressed my father as “Sir”, just “Dad”. (“Yes, Dad”, “No, Dad”, etc). I have only ever called my mother “Ma’am” when being jocular, then it’s “Yes’M”.

My Dad called his father “Sir”, but never insisted on me calling him that.

I have seen the following formalities, usually in older books or shows:

• addressing cousins with the honorific “Cousin” (“Pleased to meet you, Cousin Ralph”)
• married couples addressing each other as “Mr Jones” and “Mrs Jones” (I remember on the show The Waltons, where Ike Godsey addressed his wife as Corabeth, but she always addressed him as “Mister Godsey”. The show was based on the memories of writer Earl Hamner growing up in the Depression, so that must have had some currency in the thirties in their neck of the woods), or as “Ma” or “Mother” and “Pa” or “Papa” (on the one hand “Ma & Pa Kettle”, on the other many representations of older – predominately Central or Eastern – European couples)
• young boys addressed as “Master Johnny” and young girls as “Miss Betty” (especially where there’s a butler present! )

Anyone else ever seen this, in real life?

Also, as I mentioned above, “Skipper” and “Missus” are in use in NF. Also, a woman (often a widow) who is well-respected and often has attained a matriarchal status in town might be referred to as “Nanny Smith”.

 

[chevalier]

Standard use is Mrs Husband and Miss Dad. If a married woman goes by her maiden name, she’s not Mrs Dad. Actually, while this is strange, the proper manner of address seems to remain Miss Dad. “Ms” is never a default title (note that it doesn’t even proper full pronunciation in speech) - it is used by women who don’t want to denote their status. It is associated with divorcees, but this is by no means always the case. The abbrevation itself (it’s really hard to call it a title…) is actually not a feminist invention, since it’s as old as the 17th or 18th century.

Please note that US Southerners will use these titles with first names. Some old-fashioned people will do it in order to differentiate between, say, two brothers. In some languages, it’s actually standard practise - perhaps if people of those cultures learn English, they might prefer to keep this custom.

 

[Phemie]

As an added note:

Where I come from, “Missus” is considered a traditional respectful form of address for an older woman, regardless of her marital status (the male equivalent is “Skipper”). Also, all female teachers were “Miss” when I grew up, regardless of marital status.

I do not follow those rules here, since I am no longer at home. I am not so sure that Mr Subramanhiam, for example, would truly appreciate the intent.

Yes, when we moved here and the kids were in school I found it funny to hear all the female teachers referred to as Miss and all the males as Sir, never Mr. Brown or Mr. Black, always Sir. If the kids referred to a teacher at home it would be “Miss said…” or “Sir asked…” After three years I was used to it and then we moved.

I guess the first time my daughter used “Sir” to address her grade 10 English teacher in her new school the entire class started to laugh. Colour her confused.
“What’s so funny?”
“You called him ‘Sir’, why did you do that?”
“Er, what am I supposed to call him?”
“Mr. Cormier of course, that’s his name.”

 

[Ghoti]

Yes, when we moved here and the kids were in school I found it funny to hear all the female teachers referred to as Miss and all the males as Sir, never Mr. Brown or Mr. Black, always Sir. If the kids referred to a teacher at home it **would be “Miss said…” or “Sir asked…” ** After three years I was used to it and then we moved.

Exactly. Refer also to the book by E. Braithwaite, To Sir, With Love.

I had a slight problem in junior high – I was taught by Christian Brothers. They got rather peeved if you called them “Sir” – it was “Bro” or “Brother” (in my school, usually pronounced “Brudder”). So it was always “Yes, Bro”, “No, Brother”, etc.

In high school, I had the problem in that you couldn’t tell the Brothers from the Fathers, or sometimes the Sirs. Some of the Brothers were in mufti, while others wore the Roman collar.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Does anyone here call their father “Sir” or their mother “Ma’am”?

Yes, indeed.
**For that matter, I call my dh “Sir” and he has been known to say “Ma’am” to me without any hint of sarcasm. I never grew up around couples who called their husbands/wives by their name unless it was in a bedroom reference or really ticked off. LOL I think the standard sentiment is one shouldn’t respect anyone more than their spouse or parents, so the respect is always used, often very affectionately. Rob’s grandfather always called his wife “Mother” or “Mom” and Rob has been known to toss that in when talking to me as well. I usually call him Daddy. We’ve met some yankees that find that really weird. Why I don’t know. **

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We also refer to the kids in like manner fairly regularly.

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My grandparents and extended family were NEVER addressed as things such as “Granny Mary” or just Angie. No sir, that would illicit shocked murmurs at my parents for having raised such “fresh” ill-mannered children. It was alway “Grandma Last Name” or “Aunt Angie” And age didn’t matter. I was 5 years old when I had 2 nephews and they always referred to me as “Aunt Martha” - never just Martha. Still do now that they are parents.

 

[chevalier]

Does anyone here call their father “Sir” or their mother “Ma’am”?

The first time I ever saw that was on “Leave It to Beaver”. I thought it quite strange, as I have never addressed my father as “Sir”, just “Dad”. (“Yes, Dad”, “No, Dad”, etc). I have only ever called my mother “Ma’am” when being jocular, then it’s “Yes’M”.

My Dad called his father “Sir”, but never insisted on me calling him that.

I have seen the following formalities, usually in older books or shows:

• addressing cousins with the honorific “Cousin” (“Pleased to meet you, Cousin Ralph”)
• married couples addressing each other as “Mr Jones” and “Mrs Jones” (I remember on the show The Waltons, where Ike Godsey addressed his wife as Corabeth, but she always addressed him as “Mister Godsey”. The show was based on the memories of writer Earl Hamner growing up in the Depression, so that must have had some currency in the thirties in their neck of the woods), or as “Ma” or “Mother” and “Pa” or “Papa” (on the one hand “Ma & Pa Kettle”, on the other many representations of older – predominately Central or Eastern – European couples)
• young boys addressed as “Master Johnny” and young girls as “Miss Betty” (especially where there’s a butler present! )

Anyone else ever seen this, in real life?

In Polish, but not in English, I’ve heard, “will Dad/Mum/Aunt/Uncle/Grannie/Mr Professor pass me the sugar, please?” Also, teenagers addressed as madam/sir. Third person addresses are generally reduced to madam/sir these days, with the full title address at the beginning or the end of a sentence, in second person. “Mister President, will Mister kindly…” instead of, “Will Mr President kindly…” This kind of thing. Personally, I insist on calling people mr/mrs or madam/sir, but I don’t do lavish third person addresses and I keep addresses as short as possible.

By the way, you would get such kicks out of translating our envelope addresses… I’ve actually seen a “serenely magnipotent lord” in my lifetime and the guy was not an aristocrat. Admittedly, it does look less pompous in Polish.

 

[IrishAm]

I am all for proper etiquette and politeness (I have just fought the etiquette war to end all etiquette wars during my daughter’s recent wedding, but, that is for a completely different thread…)

Oh, do start a new thread. Having married off three daughters in the past decade and being a stickler for doing it properly – both in terms of liturgy and etiquette – I have fought the good fight as well! Lost a few of the battles, admittedly.

My greatest honor had to do with this very topic. My husband and I are divorced and we both hosted the wedding. I’m crazed about invitations being right. Therefore, my name (first line) listed me as Mrs. MaidenName MarriedName – a very old-school and very correct way for a divorced woman to be named. Not Ms. FirstName LastName (which is also correct, of course, but this was a teaching moment). Caused quite a stir, I’m told, with people “going to the books” to find out what it was all about. Several young people came up to me at the reception to tell me “even my mom didn’t know – but grandma did!” It was fun. My girls got a kick out of it.

 

[Phemie]

Exactly. Refer also to the book by E. Braithwaite, To Sir, With Love.

I had a slight problem in junior high – I was taught by Christian Brothers. They got rather peeved if you called them “Sir” – it was “Bro” or “Brother” (in my school, usually pronounced “Brudder”). So it was always “Yes, Bro”, “No, Brother”, etc.

In high school, I had the problem in that you couldn’t tell the Brothers from the Fathers, or sometimes the Sirs. Some of the Brothers were in mufti, while others wore the Roman collar.

Back home, NB, the Christian Brothers had just taught their last year at the jr/sr high when I got there so I never had to deal with them up close and personal like. I do recall from my limited contact with them that they were also a mixture of Roman collars and mufti.

Now we had Sisters teaching us in our village school. They were always known as ‘Mother’. One guy reminded me a few years ago of the time he had called our grade one teacher ‘mommy’ instead of ‘Mother’.

As for your question about how we referred to our parents, well, I’m Francophone so at home it was always Maman & Papa. But in French there we also deal with the formal use of the second person plural. No child would say ‘tu’ to an adult when I was growing up, it was always ‘vous’. We used ‘tu’ with our parents but Dad always made a point to let us know that some of our friends didn’t get to do that with their parents.

Most adults were Monsieur, Madame or Mademoiselle surname if they were only occasional visitors, Title First Name if they were friends we saw more often, and then there was a slew of ‘aunts’ and ‘uncles’ who didn’t share a drop of blood with the family.

One such ‘Aunt’ was at Mom’s funeral and she laughed when I, at 32, called her ‘Aunt Jeannette’. The expectation at that point was that I would drop the honorific but I couldn’t, I hadn’t seen her enough in my adult years to be comfortable doing that.

 

[mercygate]

Does anyone here call their father “Sir” or their mother “Ma’am”?

The first time I ever saw that was on “Leave It to Beaver”. I thought it quite strange, as I have never addressed my father as “Sir”, just “Dad”. (“Yes, Dad”, “No, Dad”, etc). I have only ever called my mother “Ma’am” when being jocular, then it’s “Yes’M”.

My Dad called his father “Sir”, but never insisted on me calling him that.

I have seen the following formalities, usually in older books or shows:

• addressing cousins with the honorific “Cousin” (“Pleased to meet you, Cousin Ralph”)
• married couples addressing each other as “Mr Jones” and “Mrs Jones” (I remember on the show The Waltons, where Ike Godsey addressed his wife as Corabeth, but she always addressed him as “Mister Godsey”. The show was based on the memories of writer Earl Hamner growing up in the Depression, so that must have had some currency in the thirties in their neck of the woods), or as “Ma” or “Mother” and “Pa” or “Papa” (on the one hand “Ma & Pa Kettle”, on the other many representations of older – predominately Central or Eastern – European couples)
• young boys addressed as “Master Johnny” and young girls as “Miss Betty” (especially where there’s a butler present! )

Anyone else ever seen this, in real life?

Also, as I mentioned above, “Skipper” and “Missus” are in use in NF. Also, a woman (often a widow) who is well-respected and often has attained a matriarchal status in town might be referred to as “Nanny Smith”.

I frequently address the DH as “Dr. Jones.” He will call me “Missus” or sometimes “Madam.” I thought it charming (going back more than a century and sliding off topic) that in Trollope’s Barchester series, Mrs. Grantley calls her husband affectionately, “Archdeacon.” “Yes, Archdeacon.” “Would you care for another crumpet, Archdeacon?”

 

[chevalier]

Yes, indeed.
For that matter, I call my dh “Sir” and he has been known to say “Ma’am” to me without any hint of sarcasm.

I suppose I’d switch to first names some time before the wedding.

 

[Ghoti]

By the way, you would get such kicks out of translating our envelope addresses… I’ve actually seen a “serenely magnipotent lord” in my lifetime and the guy was not an aristocrat. Admittedly, it does look less pompous in Polish.

Indeed. When you think about it, the French *Monsieur *comes from the same root as *Monsignor *-- “My Lord”.

What makes that funny is that the English word *Lord *comes from the Anglo-Saxon hlaef-weard…“the fellow who guards the loaf”.

And don’t bother to ask what the “steward” was *really *in charge of!

(And no, not the “stew”…unless it was a pork stew…)

 

[Guitar]

The bottom line is you are not allowed to rename someone. If I want to be called Ms. Puffinstuff, but you want your children to call me Mrs. Puffinstuff regardless of how I feel about it, then that’s just as bad as when your request to be called Mrs. Smith is ignored by friends who refer to you as KC to their children. Consistency is a necessity in parenting, but correctness should take precedence. In matters of etiquette, it is more correct to be respectful and considerate of others and then honestly explain to your children why there must be an exception to the general rule. Obviously this doesn’t make it easy on you as a parent, but the point of etiquette is to teach children to have respect for others, not just teach them a “rule” for them to follow…

(And, like BeeSweet, I would have had to deliberately go through and change my name on every single document in order to be legally Mrs Hisname. Where I am, you are legally allowed to do it on marriage but if you do nothing your name stays exactly as it was.)

If someone insisted on their children addressing me by a name that is not my name, I would (carefully avoiding catching the children between two adults) take the parent aside and explain that I do not even permit my parents to address me by a name that is not now my chosen name so I respectfully request that you also use my name. How I am to be addressed is no one’s decision but mine.

I always respect others’ preferences (I would certainly address KC as Mrs Smith as per her request, even if she ignored mine) but I feel strongly enough about it that I don’t associate with anyone who doesn’t respect it. How I am addressed is an extremely personal issue and a boundary I will not have crossed. People directing their children to address me by a name which is not mine makes the children a tool of their parents’ lack of regard for my right to control what I am called and I agree that’s no different from the mothers who (just to use the example, not picking on Mrs Smith in particular!) insist on referring to Mrs Smith as KC when speaking to their children.

We frequently hear how our society constantly underestimates children, expecially when anyone might suggest serving at a TLM might be too hard for the little darlings. I think lots of children just might actually learn that this one’s a Ms and that one’s a Mrs same as they can sort out a Jones from a Smith from a Puffinstuff, without getting bent out of shape for life over it. Little ones cope with far bigger deals than that as they grow up.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Miss Manners says that adults get to pick how they are addressed.