Verbal Etiquette question here: c'mon down teachers, professors, et all!

[SuscipeMeDomine]

So what say you: how do we refer to married women who retained their maiden name? Mrs. or Ms.?

I say that we refer to all people by the name which they prefer.

Your friend and other such-minded women could avoid MUCH confusion if they would just go ahead and take their husbands’ last names.

Riiiight…because why should they get to choose their names. It makes so much more sense for you to choose for them. Not.

AGAIN, there are exceptions. Difficult last names we wing-it. Priests – they make the rules of their name.

So priests get to decide what they want to be called, but adult women do not. ???

Just out of curiosity, what do you do when the woman in question is an MD? Do you still impose a title of Mrs. on her, or does she get to use her title of Doctor?

And if your old friend Susie Smith becomes a sister, do you allow her to be known by her religious name of Sister Mary Joseph, or – by your rules – does she remain Miss Smith to your children?

It seems to me that names are the most personal things we have, and we get to choose how people use them. If I’m Ms. Someone or Miss Someone or Mrs. Someone or Sister Someone or Doctor Someone…then that’s how you should refer to me. It’s my choice, not yours.

 

[chevalier]

Indeed. When you think about it, the French *Monsieur *comes from the same root as *Monsignor *-- “My Lord”.

Yup, although “monseigneur” would be closer to “monsignor” . Funny thing, “sieur” alone showed up in legal texts until recently. It also made a title before people started adding “mon” when talking about people in third person - say, “Sieur de Metz”. It does sound funny to call someone “mon” when you’ve possibly never seen him, doesn’t it?

What makes that funny is that the English word *Lord *comes from the Anglo-Saxon hlaef-weard…“the fellow who guards the loaf”.

Yup, and “lady” is “hlaefdige”.

And don’t bother to ask what the “steward” was *really *in charge of!

(And no, not the “stew”…unless it was a pork stew…)

Lol, didn’t know that. Erm. Sty+ward?

 

[gardenswithkids]

It is *much *easier for children to address their friends’ parents as Mr. and Mrs. Same-last-name-of-child.

While I prefer formal titles, I vote with calling people what they wish to be called. However, it is harder for a child to remember their friend’s mom’s first name or a different last name if they wish to be called something other than a formal title with one family name.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

It’s not a Church teaching to take your husband’s last name, just cultural/societal standards and usually personal preference.

My kids will use Mr. and Mrs. or Ms. or what the specific adult prefers. **Politeness isn’t so much formality as respect. **That’s what I want to teach them. Naturally, there are certain times where Mr/Mrs/Ms will always be required (school, etc.) but other than that, it’s about respecting choices.

Exactly.
It’s a double standard if you insist on your friends’ children calling you Mrs. Smith, but get upset if they insist on being called FirstName or Miss FirstName.

On my side, most everyone is Mr. or Ms. FirstName, unless specified by the specific person.

The one I cannot get over is Grandma/Grandpa FirstName. We always had MeeMee, Granny, Granddad, MeeMa.

ETA: I really should finish a thread before I respond to it…

 

[KCtheMommy]

I say that we refer to all people by the name which they prefer.

Riiiight…because why should they get to choose their names. It makes so much more sense for you to choose for them. Not.

So priests get to decide what they want to be called, but adult women do not. ???

Just out of curiosity, what do you do when the woman in question is an MD? Do you still impose a title of Mrs. on her, or does she get to use her title of Doctor? Dr.

And if your old friend Susie Smith becomes a sister, do you allow her to be known by her religious name of Sister Mary Joseph, or – by your rules – does she remain Miss Smith to your children?

**Of course nuns are referred to by their religious names. **

It seems to me that names are the most personal things we have, and we get to choose how people use them. If I’m Ms. Someone or Miss Someone or Mrs. Someone or Sister Someone or Doctor Someone…then that’s how you should refer to me. It’s my choice, not yours.

**I’ll be sure to not introduce my children to you. Heaven forbid I use the wrong honor. I seriously think you missed a post. I also think you missed the POINT – which is simply "do you call people who retained their maiden name after marriage “Ms.” or “Mrs.” ?

SOOOOOO can I offer you a spoon of sugar for your bitter coffee Miss, or is it Ms. or is it Mrs, or perhaps Sister, or maybe Dr., or even Professor Someone? **

 

[SMHW]

It’s my understanding that the title Mrs. is always associated with the husband’s (or former husband’s) last name.

If a woman is currently married she is formally known as Mrs. Husband’s-First-Name Husband’s-Last-Name. If she is divorced she is formally known as Mrs. Former-Wife’s-First-Name Former-Husband’s-Last-Name. So if one is being formal, Mrs John Smith is assumed to be a married woman (or a widow) and Mrs. Mary Smith is assumed to be a divorced woman. In informal usage, however, Mrs Mary Smith is probably still married to John Smith.

The problem is that according to conventional etiquette rules, “Mrs” is ***always ***associated with a man’s name taken by a woman in marriage. It is ***never ***associated with a maiden name, even if the woman is married. A married woman who does not use the husband’s last name cannot properly be called “Mrs”. While “Miss” would be proper, it is rather misleading.

Even though it may have been around for much longer, the title “Ms.” became popular in the 1970s with working woman who found that it was an advantage in the workforce to disguise their marital status.

On a purely practical level, it’s been my experience that many children refer to women acquaintances as M’zz’zz Smith. It sound’s kind of like “Ms.” but pronounced as if it were two syllables like “Missus”. If you ask them to say “Mrs.” and then you ask them to say “Ms.” you would hear the same sound coming out of them.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

**I’ll be sure to not introduce my children to you. Heaven forbid I use the wrong honor. I seriously think you missed a post. I also think you missed the POINT – which is simply "do you call people who retained their maiden name after marriage “Ms.” or “Mrs.” ? **

I call everyone – married or not – what they wish to be called. A woman who retains her birth name after marriage may prefer Ms. Somebody and that’s what I would call her. She may prefer Mrs. Somebody and then I would call her that. Or if she is Dr. Somebody or Sister Somebody then I would use those titles.

It’s not “heaven forbid I use the wrong honor.” It’s “heaven forbid I impose what I want instead of respecting what you want.” That seems pretty simple to me.

 

[IrishAm]

If a woman is currently married she is formally known as Mrs. Husband’s-First-Name Husband’s-Last-Name. If she is divorced she is formally known as Mrs. Former-Wife’s-First-Name Former-Husband’s-Last-Name. So if one is being formal, Mrs John Smith is assumed to be a married woman (or a widow) and Mrs. Mary Smith is assumed to be a divorced woman. In informal usage, however, Mrs Mary Smith is probably still married to John Smith.

While I realize it is wildly popular, the purists among us (including moi) will maintain that there is never, ever, under any circumstances, a Mrs. Mary Smith. (We are going to leave same sex marriages out of this equation for the sake of . . . well, the sake of my brain cells.) Miss (or Ms.) Susan Smith marries John Jones. She traditionally and typically becomes Mrs. John Jones, although certainly can be Ms. Susan Smith or Ms. Susan Jones should she so desire. (We are also leaving non-marital honorifics out of this argument – so don’t argue with me about Dr., Rev., Her Royal Highness, etc. – although I can tell you how that is done as well . . .

Anyway, sadly, John dies. The widow Jones IS STILL Mrs. John Jones for as long as she chooses to be – including forever. No evil people should tell her otherwise. She may also choose to be Ms. Susan Jones. She is not, ever, under any circumstances Mrs. Susan Jones.

Alas, John didn’t die. He left town with some hussey (we can call her Ms. Hussey, if it amuses you ) and has filed for divorce. Now Susan is a divorced woman (pursuing an annulment in the Church) and a single mother. In the old days, a woman totally blameless could keep the name of her husband. No one would try that now. So she is not Mrs. John Jones. She can certainly be Ms. Susan Jones. Maybe as part of the divorce decree she went back to being Miss Susan Smith. Or, absolutely, positively, correct – she is Mrs. Smith Jones. It looks really good on quality stationery. Again, she is not, ever, under any circumstances, Mrs. Susan Jones.

I blame teachers for the Mrs. FirstName LastName nonsence. In the old days, married women weren’t allowed to teach , so teachers were always Miss FirstName LastName. When that went away, schools decided people should know both the honorific AND the first name. Messed it all up. They should have stuck to the facts they wanted to impart – “Susan Jones (Mrs. Jones)”, or even “(Mrs.) Susan Jones”.

And, yes, I know the new Emily Post book has taken on the “Mrs. Susan Jones is divorced” nonsence. But the REAL Emily would have a fit if she knew.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Indeed. When you think about it, the French *Monsieur *comes from the same root as *Monsignor *-- “My Lord”.

Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese are similar, only with Signore, Señor, or Senhor, simply meaning “Lord”. And of course, their feminine counterparts mean “Lady.” I love that. I also love the different informal/formal uses of the second person. Though Italian can be a tad confusing because the formal pronoun for the second person is “lei” which also means “she”. So you really have to pay attention to context.

In my house, we call my folks “Mom” and “Dad” (usually Daddy, at least with me and my sister, not so much my brother). It would be “Sir” or “Ma’am” when they were strict with us. For grandparents, on my mom’s side, it’s Pop Pop and Grandma (first name). Dad’s is Grandma and Nonno (my grandfather is Italian). I do call my paternal grandmother Nonna, but only if we’re speaking Italian (she’s not Italian by birth, but married one).

 

[LilyM]

While I realize it is wildly popular, the purists among us (including moi) will maintain that there is never, ever, under any circumstances, a Mrs. Mary Smith. (We are going to leave same sex marriages out of this equation for the sake of . . . well, the sake of my brain cells.) Miss (or Ms.) Susan Smith marries John Jones. She traditionally and typically becomes Mrs. John Jones, although certainly can be Ms. Susan Smith or Ms. Susan Jones should she so desire. (We are also leaving non-marital honorifics out of this argument – so don’t argue with me about Dr., Rev., Her Royal Highness, etc. – although I can tell you how that is done as well . . .

Anyway, sadly, John dies. The widow Jones IS STILL Mrs. John Jones for as long as she chooses to be – including forever. No evil people should tell her otherwise. She may also choose to be Ms. Susan Jones. She is not, ever, under any circumstances Mrs. Susan Jones.

Alas, John didn’t die. He left town with some hussey (we can call her Ms. Hussey, if it amuses you ) and has filed for divorce. Now Susan is a divorced woman (pursuing an annulment in the Church) and a single mother. In the old days, a woman totally blameless could keep the name of her husband. No one would try that now. So she is not Mrs. John Jones. She can certainly be Ms. Susan Jones. Maybe as part of the divorce decree she went back to being Miss Susan Smith. Or, absolutely, positively, correct – she is Mrs. Smith Jones. It looks really good on quality stationery. Again, she is not, ever, under any circumstances, Mrs. Susan Jones.

I blame teachers for the Mrs. FirstName LastName nonsence. In the old days, married women weren’t allowed to teach , so teachers were always Miss FirstName LastName. When that went away, schools decided people should know both the honorific AND the first name. Messed it all up. They should have stuck to the facts they wanted to impart – “Susan Jones (Mrs. Jones)”, or even “(Mrs.) Susan Jones”.

And, yes, I know the new Emily Post book has taken on the “Mrs. Susan Jones is divorced” nonsence. But the REAL Emily would have a fit if she knew.

No way! If I marry I will certainly ‘cleave to my husband’, become part of his family and take his family name (except perhaps professionally), but I’ll be darned if I’m going to be treated as a mere appendage of him or a piece of his property to be denied even a first name of my own! So Mrs Lily Hubby’sLastName it will be in all situations for me thanks.

And all adult women are and always will be, to my children, referred to as Ms, and no assumptions made about their marital status, unless and until they indicate that they wish to be called otherwise. And if they indicate they want to be addressed as ‘Your Grand Poobahship’, then ‘Your Grand Poohbahship’ it will be.

 

[mizznicole]

In Polish, but not in English, I’ve heard, “will Dad/Mum/Aunt/Uncle/Grannie/Mr Professor pass me the sugar, please?” Also, teenagers addressed as madam/sir. Third person addresses are generally reduced to madam/sir these days, with the full title address at the beginning or the end of a sentence, in second person. “Mister President, will Mister kindly…” instead of, “Will Mr President kindly…” This kind of thing. Personally, I insist on calling people mr/mrs or madam/sir, but I don’t do lavish third person addresses and I keep addresses as short as possible.

By the way, you would get such kicks out of translating our envelope addresses… I’ve actually seen a “serenely magnipotent lord” in my lifetime and the guy was not an aristocrat. Admittedly, it does look less pompous in Polish.

Would you mind writing some examples in Polish? Pretty please?

 

[pentecostbaby]

**I’ll be sure to not introduce my children to you. Heaven forbid I use the wrong honor. I seriously think you missed a post. I also think you missed the POINT – which is simply "do you call people who retained their maiden name after marriage “Ms.” or “Mrs.” ?

SOOOOOO can I offer you a spoon of sugar for your bitter coffee Miss, or is it Ms. or is it Mrs, or perhaps Sister, or maybe Dr., or even Professor Someone? **

I understand your point of view. Here’s a little background: I, like many other women in academia, kept my name for professional reasons (I was published under my own name when I was married; also, my sister-in-law has the same first name as I do, and I prefer having a unique name). However, I do like having a different name than my husband.
When people call me “Mrs.” rather than “Ms”, they presume that I’m married to a “Mr. C” rather than a “Mr. B”.
When you dictate what someone else will be called, you enact a kind of cultural imperialism. You give yourself the right to dictate the way in which someone is seen, the attributes ascribed to them, and, from a linguistic standpoint, what they are. You wouldn’t call a Native American an “Indian” to her face - especially when she states her preference for the former. By insisting on “Mrs” rather than “Ms” - and implying that it would be easier if all of us just sucked it up and took our husband’s names - you insist on your own power to control another person.
This isn’t bitter. This is very important to those of us who take a lot of care in their linguistic choices, and try very hard to think through the consequences, arguments, and meanings embedded in their words.
I believe that it’s very, very important to teach children to be keenly aware of linguistic choices - it helps them negotiate an increasingly digitized world that bombards them with a rhetoric that’s becoming more and more sophisticated.
And, as my husband puts it, it’s a sin against charity to insist on controlling someone this way - which is a much more persuasive argument than mine.

 

[Guitar]

**I also think you missed the POINT – which is simply "do you call people who retained their maiden name after marriage “Ms.” or “Mrs.” ? **

True, but in a later post you seemed to say you’d be going with the call-a-married-woman-Mrs-endov advice regardless of how the woman herself felt about it.

 

[Brenda_V]

J

Boy the men have it easy don’t they? You betcha Mr.!

Actually I think that there is a difference, at least in an archaic sense. I will have to look it up somewhere and anyone here is surely welcome to help me but I was raised with the impression that an unmarried man was addressed as Master and a married man was addressed as Mister.

Brenda V.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Actually I think that there is a difference, at least in an archaic sense. I will have to look it up somewhere and anyone here is surely welcome to help me but I was raised with the impression that an unmarried man was addressed as Master and a married man was addressed as Mister.

Brenda V.

Master, I think had to do with age…a boy under 18. Mister was older… .

 

[Brenda_V]

Master, I think had to do with age…a boy under 18. Mister was older… .

Okay, that makes sense - I googled “master mister” and found something in Wikipedia. Interesting stuff there .

Brenda V.

 

[dakotagirl]

It’s not a Church teaching to take your husband’s last name, just cultural/societal standards and usually personal preference.

My kids will use Mr. and Mrs. or Ms. or what the specific adult prefers. Politeness isn’t so much formality as respect. That’s what I want to teach them. Naturally, there are certain times where Mr/Mrs/Ms will always be required (school, etc.) but other than that, it’s about respecting choices.

Miss Sanctamaria, thank you kindly, ma’am; this is true and seems kind of naturally obvious, once you think about it.

 

[reganq]

No way! If I marry I will certainly ‘cleave to my husband’, become part of his family and take his family name (except perhaps professionally), but I’ll be darned if I’m going to be treated as a mere appendage of him or a piece of his property to be denied even a first name of my own! So Mrs Lily Hubby’sLastName it will be in all situations for me thanks.

And all adult women are and always will be, to my children, referred to as Ms, and no assumptions made about their marital status, unless and until they indicate that they wish to be called otherwise. And if they indicate they want to be addressed as ‘Your Grand Poobahship’, then ‘Your Grand Poohbahship’ it will be.

From now on, I would like to be addressed as “Your Grand Poobahship.”

Sorry, I couldn’t resist taking that bait!

We now return you to the thread already in progress…

 

[mizznicole]

I just wanted to point out that some very faithful, admirable Catholic women have retained their maiden names, perhaps for professional reasons. Mary Ann Glendon comes to mind immediately.

There’s also the hyphenated Elizabeth Fox-Genovese, who was admittedly hyphenated before her conversion. But that didn’t stop her from being a clear voice on feminism and the Church.

 

[Belgarion]

…Although I use “Mr.” and "Mrs., “Sir” and “Ma’am” often…I mostly use it (sir) when talking to the father of the girl I like…